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  #241  
Old 01-11-2011, 11:41 PM
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Maybe the dog will be carrying more out than on its way in

Not sure where it became a "pack dog" only issue or if that is the goal or intent of most here.

Why do you keep ignoring the protection issue. Do you believe there is no merit to it?

tm
  #242  
Old 01-11-2011, 11:46 PM
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Redfrog, I find your thought process very interesting. Your reasoning is that because someone cannot provide you with the stats on the number of tickets issued for dogs running at large it doesn't happen?

I was just going to ignore your argument as I don't feel that it is of any value to the debate however I just might as well edumacate you with a little light reading:

http://www.vaildaily.com/article/201...NEWS/100319795
"DURANGO, Colo. — A Colorado wildlife officer has shot and killed an unleashed dog that was harassing an elk near Durango."


http://www.biggamehunt.net/news/dogs...erious-problem
"Conservation officers from the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources (DNR) are receiving a growing number of reports about dogs chasing and harassing deer."

http://gf.state.wy.us/services/news/...2/080222_5.asp
"COKEVILLE - After responding to complaints of dogs chasing and killing deer, and complaints of people on snowshoes running off deer and elk to get their antlers, one local game warden suggests it's time that people take control of their ethics and their pets and stop harassing the wildlife."

http://onyourownadventures.com/huntt...d.php?t=244406
"Dogs running deer!"

When you're done reading all of that, why not ride your goat on down and feast a bit?
http://venisondogfood.net/294/could-...s-hunt-a-deer/

'Nuff said, I'm done with the subject of whether or not dogs running at large exists or not. It is of no value. Unless of course you have some sort of proof that it doesn't happen.
Thanks for that Dave. I understand now. You of course are right. I stand corrected.
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  #243  
Old 01-12-2011, 12:09 AM
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Thanks for that Dave. I understand now. You of course are right. I stand corrected.
Thank you for that.
  #244  
Old 01-12-2011, 12:09 AM
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It's relevant because if a regulation is proposed to allow pack dogs on big game hunts there is no logic to it if the dog can only carry it's own food. There would be no requirement for dog food if there's no dog. Make sense?

A dog that doesn't pack is not a pack dog, it's just a dog.

If you are looking for ways around it then I suppose that you could carry the dog food and the dog can carry your socks and underwear. See, we've already found ways to exploit the system!
The main purpose for a pack dog is for companionship. The amount it can carry is a bonus. Guys are trying to find excusses on why they shouldnt be allowed. But there really is no legitimate reason shown to not have it legal. A 20lb(small) dog can carry roughly 5lbs - 6lbs thats easy his food(depending on the length of the trip and a couple pounds of gear). That equals my cook stove and a couple more small iteams. So most dogs can carry enough to be a help, even smaller dogs if you so wish. Even if he only carried his food in he will carry that weight out which when packing out a full sheep, and all your gear would be a huge help in my eyes. And the bigger the dog the bigger the help.
SG
  #245  
Old 01-12-2011, 12:10 AM
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As a matter of fact I am speaking from experience. Sheep go on full alert if they see a wolf(or other predators) and then if that wolf gets to close sheep will flee to a safer area such as cliffs, just as I stated. Same goes for any other animal you have mentioned. They have a safety distance and once the predator crosses that line elk and moose will also flee, with a small percentage standing and fighting these usually being cows protecting calves.
Maybe you should back your so called facts before saying others speculate!
SG
"more than likely" is not a statement of fact, your opinion was hollow without substance. someone saying their going to request the banning of all hunting with dogs is a statement of fact,antihunting. i saw a band of sheep a couple of weeks ago bunch together when two "predators" approached them. while they were distracted by these "predators" i could have easily slipped in and taken the biggest. it was just as if they were herded there by a well trained collie. talk about shootin fish in a barrel.
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  #246  
Old 01-12-2011, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Nait Hadya View Post
"more than likely" is not a statement of fact, your opinion was hollow without substance. someone saying their going to request the banning of all hunting with dogs is a statement of fact,antihunting. i saw a band of sheep a couple of weeks ago bunch together when two "predators" approached them. while they were distracted by these "predators" i could have easily slipped in and taken the biggest. it was just as if they were herded there by a well trained collie. talk about shootin fish in a barrel.
LOL well if we make all rules because ther are going to be a couple that break them we wouldnt do anything. A pack dog would be required to be with you and herding would easily be determined as harassing wildlife. I understand you are against it but many dont agree you should run cats! They could come up with lots of reason you should be using dogs in your manner from what some guys do, so does that mean your in the wrong?
SG
  #247  
Old 01-12-2011, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey View Post
Maybe the dog will be carrying more out than on its way in

Not sure where it became a "pack dog" only issue or if that is the goal or intent of most here.

Why do you keep ignoring the protection issue. Do you believe there is no merit to it?

tm
TM

Good point about not needing the dog food heading out. If that's all that it can carry though I'm afraid that it's not going to be much help with the meat on the way out.

I reread the thread in it's entirety tonight (yes, it was a slow evening). Allot of the thread is related to using a dog as a pack dog. Probably because SH mentioned in post #2 that he had requested a change to the regs to allow it. Regardless, that has been the focus of allot of the discussion.

I'm not trying to avoid the protection, or at least alerting, issue. I think that it has it's merits and to be honest with you I would sleep sounder in bear country with a dog in camp. In fact I'd be all for having a dog accompany you while big game hunting purely on that reason alone.

The concern that I have is the problems that could arise with allowing dogs to accompany you with the regs written the way that they currently are. Not allowing your dog to participate in the hunt or harass wildlife is much too vague IMHO. If that concern was addressed I'd be behind this initiative with my 100% support.
  #248  
Old 01-12-2011, 12:48 AM
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The main purpose for a pack dog is for companionship. The amount it can carry is a bonus. SG
Ya see, there's the disconnect with me. I was under the understanding that pack dogs actually served a purpose to pack kit for someone. If pack dogs don't actually pack anything and are in reality just companion dogs then why put a pack on them and call them pack dogs? Just call them companion dogs.

It just seems to me that it's camouflaging a dog as a pack dog.
  #249  
Old 01-12-2011, 01:10 AM
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Gotchya Dave,

I hear what you're sayin'

tm
  #250  
Old 01-12-2011, 01:19 AM
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Ya see, there's the disconnect with me. I was under the understanding that pack dogs actually served a purpose to pack kit for someone. If pack dogs don't actually pack anything and are in reality just companion dogs then why put a pack on them and call them pack dogs? Just call them companion dogs.

It just seems to me that it's camouflaging a dog as a pack dog.
They do serve a purpose, companionship, protection and do pack stuff.
Have you back packed any? Any amount of weight that dog can carry is a help whether its 5lbs or 30lbs. And if you hunt for 14days that dog is a companion for all the days exept camp moving days(could be zero days or 14), after a harvest or when packing out. That is why I state the main reason is companionship. Im not sure what the rules state where dogs are legal but to me a rule could blanket dogs. Wouldnt have to be pack dogs but any dog. If you stay within strick rules (be under control, not running around)and regulations what is wrong with a dog hunting with you if it isnt packing? Kinda the same isnt it?
SG
  #251  
Old 01-12-2011, 01:33 AM
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Originally Posted by sheepguide View Post
They do serve a purpose, companionship, protection and do pack stuff.
Have you back packed any? Any amount of weight that dog can carry is a help whether its 5lbs or 30lbs. And if you hunt for 14days that dog is a companion for all the days exept camp moving days(could be zero days or 14), after a harvest or when packing out. That is why I state the main reason is companionship. Im not sure what the rules state where dogs are legal but to me a rule could blanket dogs. Wouldnt have to be pack dogs but any dog. If you stay within strick rules (be under control, not running around)and regulations what is wrong with a dog hunting with you if it isnt packing? Kinda the same isnt it?
SG
Let's take pack dogs off of the table then. Do you think that the current regs that simply state that you cannot hunt big game with dogs or allow your dog to harass wildlife, are sufficient if the regs were changed to allow dogs to accompany you on a big game hunt.

How many dogs per hunter would be permissable?

Last edited by HunterDave; 01-12-2011 at 01:44 AM.
  #252  
Old 01-12-2011, 01:50 AM
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Let's take pack dogs off of the table then. Do you think that the current regs that simply state that you cannot hunt big game with dogs or allow your dog to harass wildlife, are sufficient if the regs were changed to allow dogs to accompany you on a big game hunt.

How many dogs per hunter would be permissable?
I think you would for sure have to have very tight rules and regulations on number of dogs, distance from the hunter, and many more or you would get guys just letting dogs run and harassing wild life.
Ive seen guys packing in with dogs that had 4 or 5. Would that be acceptable? Hard call. But I think many guys would be happy just to have the limit set at one dog per person. Be tough to get the rules set but I think it could be done to make it a fesable option for hunters in the backcountry.
SG
  #253  
Old 01-12-2011, 02:13 AM
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I think you would for sure have to have very tight rules and regulations on number of dogs, distance from the hunter, and many more or you would get guys just letting dogs run and harassing wild life.
Ive seen guys packing in with dogs that had 4 or 5. Would that be acceptable? Hard call. But I think many guys would be happy just to have the limit set at one dog per person. Be tough to get the rules set but I think it could be done to make it a fesable option for hunters in the backcountry.
SG
I agree 100%. Set limits on the number of dogs and clearly define the restrictions for the dogs and it could turn out to be a great thing for everyone. Sign a blank cheque merely allowing dogs to accompany you on a big game hunt and it could turn into a nightmare.

Clearly defined regulations would eliminate any grey areas and would be easier to enforce. Restrictions on responsible dog owners shouldn't be a problem as the regs would be something that they would expect for their companion dog anyway.

Okay, where do I vote for it?

With that I bid you a good night!
  #254  
Old 01-12-2011, 08:47 AM
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"Sign a blank cheque merely allowing dogs to accompany you on a big game hunt and it could turn into a nightmare."

You mean like the chaos we have now with bird hunters and their dogs, or hikers and their dogs?

It would be the same people with the same dogs in the field.

The difference would be that the dog would be in the field on more occasions.

Distance from hunter?? Really? And that would be easily enforced??

We already have laws against harassing wildlife. We already allow dogs in the field. Why make this complicated?
The same people with the same dogs and the same regs as we have now. The difference is that the person would now be carrying a bow or firearm.

nothing more complicated than that.
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  #255  
Old 01-12-2011, 08:55 AM
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Bird dogs run into big game every day, it's not a big deal.
As far as people and dogs in the bush, I see people with dogs quite often up here letting them run.
I just don't see what all the fuss is about , except people emphasizing the "what if" , which is a non issue IMO, from what I have seen.
But things might be different down south.

Cat
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  #256  
Old 01-12-2011, 08:59 AM
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"Sign a blank cheque merely allowing dogs to accompany you on a big game hunt and it could turn into a nightmare."

You mean like the chaos we have now with bird hunters and their dogs, or hikers and their dogs?

It would be the same people with the same dogs in the field.

The difference would be that the dog would be in the field on more occasions.

Distance from hunter?? Really? And that would be easily enforced??

We already have laws against harassing wildlife. We already allow dogs in the field. Why make this complicated?
The same people with the same dogs and the same regs as we have now. The difference is that the person would now be carrying a bow or firearm.

nothing more complicated than that.
I dont agree that it will be the same people in the same people in the field. I beleive alot of people would be added to the group of outdoorsman that would have a dog out there with them.

And Like anything the distance from the hunter would be tough to enforce(but so is every law F&W is enforcing now) but in most cases it would be followed I think. How would you feel if your hunting and a guys dog goes running by and his owner is 300 or 400yrds away? I feel if you are gunna have a dog with you out hunting it would have to be controled and within a close proximity of the hunter. Bird hunters I know have complete control of there dogs. The difference would be they can use their dogs to aid in the hunt where dogs wouldnt be able to aid you in the hunting of a big game animal.
Not sure how its complicated. If you cant control your dog you dont take him.
Seems pretty simple to me.
SG
  #257  
Old 01-12-2011, 09:01 AM
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Question: Is it legal to let my dog run free on crown land while I am grouse hunting? Not in a Provincial or wildland park, though you can apparently get permission for the latter. I'm just talking about regular green area land. I had always thought you could but when we had the discussion about dogs and traps it seemed maybe you couldn't. That would pretty much limit bird hunting with dogs to private land. Please say it isn't true!
No one know???? No one?
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Old 01-12-2011, 09:33 AM
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No one know???? No one?
Yes! Your dogs can run with you on a bird hunt or any other time,as long as they are in your control.
A beagler always runs his dog when he feels its safe to do so any time of the season and there are no rules governing this .It only states you can not use a dog to assist in a big game hunt.
Why on earth would hunting big game be acceptable ?
The meat would definately be inedible ,with adrenaline and hormones running through it and tough as all get out.
  #259  
Old 01-12-2011, 09:38 AM
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No one know???? No one?
Question: Is it legal to let my dog run free on crown land while I am grouse hunting? Not in a Provincial or wildland park, though you can apparently get permission for the latter. I'm just talking about regular green area land. I had always thought you could but when we had the discussion about dogs and traps it seemed maybe you couldn't. That would pretty much limit bird hunting with dogs to private land. Please say it isn't true!

It's not illegal to have your dog unleashed on crown land but it is illegal to have your dog running at large or harassing wildlife. There may be exceptions to the rule however but generally speaking for the purpose of bird hunting anyway.

So, to answer your question, it is not illegal to have your dog unleashed on crown land for the purpose of hunting grouse as long as he is not running at large or harassing wildlife. To me, the law is not clearly defined so I guess that it's open to interpretation as to whether or not he is doing either.
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Old 01-12-2011, 09:42 AM
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Yes! Your dogs can run with you on a bird hunt or any other time,as long as they are in your control.
A beagler always runs his dog when he feels its safe to do so any time of the season and there are no rules governing this .It only states you can not use a dog to assist in a big game hunt.
Why on earth would hunting big game be acceptable ?
The meat would definately be inedible ,with adrenaline and hormones running through it and tough as all get out.
I've hunted with dogs in Ontario and I've eaten the meat. It's not inedible. It still tastes like the bark chewing, acorn eating deer from Ontario that they are. Unlike our tasty grain fed deer in Alberta.
  #261  
Old 01-12-2011, 10:49 AM
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"If you cant control your dog you dont take him."

Exactly why would you. So do you need a law for that.

Why would anyone be out there with their dog running 3 or 4 hundred yards away?

What would stop that from happening now? If a hiker or bird watcher or boy scout is out with his dog, what keeps it under control now??
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  #262  
Old 01-12-2011, 11:09 AM
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Why on earth would hunting big game be acceptable ?
The meat would definately be inedible ,with adrenaline and hormones running through it and tough as all get out.
NON of the deer I have eaten that were killed with hounds tasted bad, and I doubt very much anyone else that has killed deer while running hounds or bear had a problem either - they don't simply run amuck at full throttle to get away from them, that is a very large misconception.
Ct
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  #263  
Old 01-12-2011, 11:16 AM
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"If you cant control your dog you dont take him."

Exactly why would you. So do you need a law for that.

Why would anyone be out there with their dog running 3 or 4 hundred yards away?

What would stop that from happening now? If a hiker or bird watcher or boy scout is out with his dog, what keeps it under control now??
What is stopping it now? Its illegal to be acompanied by a dog while hunting big game would be the big one I would think!!!!

We arent talking about Joe blow out walking a dog as we have no control over that. And if your hunting were your seing people walking dogs lots then thats just something you must deal with. Most guys hunting dont run into that issue.
We are talking about trying to get a law changed for us as hunters and in order to do that there will have to be restrictions whether you feel there should be or not. We are just making suggestions as to what may make it work.
If you want to tackle the issues concerning dogs being walked by a hiker or bird watcher you go right ahead but im not gunna get involved. People think if a guy takes a dog hunting it will be to aid in getting an animal. That is why we would need rules so as to help assist in getting people past this notion and hopfully stop people from ruining the oppertunity by using there dogs for such acts.

SG

Last edited by sheepguide; 01-12-2011 at 11:22 AM.
  #264  
Old 01-12-2011, 11:20 AM
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"If you cant control your dog you dont take him."

Exactly why would you. So do you need a law for that.

Why would anyone be out there with their dog running 3 or 4 hundred yards away?

What would stop that from happening now? If a hiker or bird watcher or boy scout is out with his dog, what keeps it under control now??
To assist with the hunt. You'd be surprised at the abilities of a big game hunting dog. I've seen them in action and I know how effective big game dogs can be. Three or 4 hundred yards away would be pretty much perfect for flushing or herding big game.

The only thing stopping anyone from allowing their dog from harassing wildlife now is the threat of punishment under the law. The big difference is that non-hunters are not carrying guns.
  #265  
Old 01-12-2011, 11:23 AM
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Yes! Your dogs can run with you on a bird hunt or any other time,as long as they are in your control.
A beagler always runs his dog when he feels its safe to do so any time of the season and there are no rules governing this .It only states you can not use a dog to assist in a big game hunt.
Why on earth would hunting big game be acceptable ?
The meat would definately be inedible ,with adrenaline and hormones running through it and tough as all get out.
This proposed resolution does not include a request to allow "Hounding" of big game. Allowing your dogs to chase big game (except for cougars) would still be illegal.
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:25 AM
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To assist with the hunt. You'd be surprised at the abilities of a big game hunting dog. I've seen them in action and I know how effective big game dogs can be. Three or 4 hundred yards away would be pretty much perfect for flushing or herding big game.

The only thing stopping anyone from allowing their dog from harassing wildlife now is the threat of punishment under the law. The big difference is that non-hunters are not carrying guns.
You are chasing your tail.
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:31 AM
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- they don't simply run amuck at full throttle to get away from them, that is a very large misconception.
Ct
That's right Cat. It's also dependent upon the conditions (ie depth of the snow), size of the dog, etc as to how fast the animals will run from barking dogs. Deep snow and a smaller breed of dog will slow them down. The idea is to just get the animals moving to escape the dogs and you don't want the dogs to actually be as fast as the animals that are being hunted. It's not like they're gonna tree a deer.

Deer can come flying into sight pretty quick at times though.
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:46 AM
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This proposed resolution does not include a request to allow "Hounding" of big game. Allowing your dogs to chase big game (except for cougars) would still be illegal.
Agreed. However what determines if a dog is assisting in a hunt, harassing wildlife or running at large? I don't know if there is a clear definition of that but for a regulation change to allow a dog to accompany you on a big game hunt I think that there should be. It'd be nice to remove all grey areas so everyone would be clear as to what is expected of them.

I don't have time to look it up right now but maybe later.

http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Acts/w10.pdf
  #269  
Old 01-12-2011, 11:48 AM
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What is stopping it now? Its illegal to be acompanied by a dog while hunting big game would be the big one I would think!!!!
Well duh! i wasn't aware of that when I started this thread.

What prevents a dog from running 3 or 4 hundred yards ahead of it's handler NOW, with the present regulations?

If the handler or the dog are stupid now they will still be stupid if the law were changed to allow dogs to accompany hunters. You can't legislate smart.




We arent talking about Joe blow out walking a dog as we have no control over that.

"Yes we do. The regs do not allow wildlife to be harassed.

And if your hunting were your seing people walking dogs lots then thats just something you must deal with.

Most guys hunting dont run into that issue.[COLOR="red"]So if it is not an issue why do we need more regs?[COLOR="red"]
We are talking about trying to get a law changed for us as hunters and in order to do that there will have to be restrictions whether you feel there should be or not. Why? We already have them. to protect wildlife. What else do we need to protect?

We are just making suggestions as to what may make it work.
If you want to tackle the issues concerning dogs being walked by a hiker or bird watcher you go right ahead but im not gunna get involved. there are no issues. If there were, we would here about all the hikers charged for allowing their dogs to chase wildlife. WE don't hear of any

People think if a guy takes a dog hunting it will be to aid in getting an animal.What people think that? I see from this thread that hunters want a dog for protection and companion ship while hunting.

That is why we would need rules so as to help assist in getting people past this notion and hopfully stop people from ruining the oppertunity by using there dogs for such acts.What acts? Hunting with a dog?? We can hunt with a dog now. Birds, often in areas where there is big game. Are there problems now? No. Why would there be problems if the law allowed a dog to accompany a big game hunter?

SG
Simple is just allowing the dog on a big game hunt. That's as simple as it gets.
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  #270  
Old 01-12-2011, 12:14 PM
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Are you serious? No nothing stops the dog from running 4 or 500 yrds from its handlers now. But with what we are stating you best have it trained well enough to stay at your side. You say you cant legislate smart? So because a few guys cant train their dog good enough to no run around then there should be no rules and such. Holy shake your head.
Again your talking about people that now have no rules about how where there dog can run. maybe if there were laws then they would put more effort into the training.

And we dont have any control over that guy just out walking his dog! Sure it cant harass wild life but how does that control them in any other way.
Again incase your narrow mind missed it this is a discussion about getting dog to be allowed while hunting not whether the local dog walker should be regulated. Start a new thread for that if you so wish.

What else do we need to protect other than wildlife from dogs running? How bout other hunters hunts? How bout from spooking riders horses? How bout spooking animals that it isnt harassing but still spooked? There are lots of reasons dogs should be controled.

What people think that? Again give your head a shake! Many people that are against dogs accompaning you while hunting arent on this site and most arent even hunters. These are the ones we need to convince. And without rules and guidelines this will never happen.

With rules in place with penalties then some unhonest guys that would illegally use the dog to actually hunt big game may be detererd and people that see rules in place will know that people are trying to get do there best in keeping wild life safe and people not just letting dogs be running around.

Again we arent talking about changing the rules for bird hunters, cat hunters or dog walkers. We as hunters are looking to hopefully get things so we can take our dogs into the bush as packers, protectors, and companions and I for one would gladly abide by some rules in order to get this to happen.
SG
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