Hunting dogs or dogs hunting??

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

why would the guy let his dog bark close enough to spooka sheep, but not shoot himself?

pack dog "in training"

[whitetailhntr]

I've had my black lab with me in spring bear camp. He is kennel trained and stays in the trailer when we are out hunting. We had CO`s visit our camp and have coffee with us . Never said a thing about the dog. He is great to have around and let`s us know if anything or anyone is near camp. I hope the rules change as well.

[Mxyzptik]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

LOL....I'm not sure there's a dog "bred" for packing in the North American mountains. All dogs can be taught to pack and all dogs can be taught not to chase animals and all dogs can be taught a multitude of things. My dog wasn't "bred" to retrieve but he does...should he not be allowed to go duck hunting with me? My dog was not "bred" to flush upland birds but he does. If you are willing to spend some time with a dog they can be taught to do a lot of things they weren't "bred" for.

And BTW, it's Bernese not Bermese...they don't come from Burma. Just cause Bernese Mountain dogs have mountain in their name really doesn't mean they were "bred" for packing in the mountains. They were "bred" as herding dogs. Some of the best pack dogs are malamutes but again, that's not what they were "bred" for. I think you might be selling your little Britt short. You might be surprised what he can do with some proper training. I've sen some pretty awesome labs and golden retrievers as pack dogs

Other provinces, states and territories have no trouble defining and enforcing the rules...why should Alberta be so much different? Write the rules in the Wildlife Act and have COs enforce them...pretty much the same as every other regulation in the Act that's subject to abuse.

I'm with you on this one, my Welsh Terrier swam out into a fast flowing canal on the EID land ( right where those swans always are at the mouth ) and retrieved a duck for me. That couldn't be further away from what he is bred and trained for but he did it no problem.
I would love be take him with me all the time and never understood the reason why we can't. I wish for once SRD could just set the rules and deal with any offenders harshly instead of assuming everyone to be a lawbreaker from the get go.

Originally Posted by HunterDave

I'm not saying that dogs can't be trained, I'm saying that there are traits in some breeds that you just can't train out of them. They've been bred for centuries to be a certain way and it's pretty hard to train all of the instincts out of them. Just when you think that you have they'll prove you wrong.

:

I've got a herding dog that's instinct is to herd. He herds when I tell him to and doesn't when I tell him not to....that's a well trained dog. You keep talking about instincts. A pack dog needs to be trained to walk at heel and lie down....doesn't seem to me that requires a special breed.

If you want to talk high energy, I've got a border collie...he still walks at heel when I tell him to and lies down when he's told. Obviously you've never been around a well trained dog.

Possibly we should shut down all hunting then because it's all a pandora's box. Come on Dave./..we are the only mountain jurisdiction that doesn't allow it...I ask again why are we so different that it wouldn't work here.....

[Rockymtnx]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

Is there another process or some way to speed things up?
It always seems to take a long time to change anything unless you can light a fire under someone.

Not really. Basically join a organization of your choice. Submit and lobby ideas, and have your organization bring them to the government. Being that the AFGA is Alberta's biggest voice for outdoorsmen, they are your best bet.

The downfall is that things take time. Resolutions can take up to 6-12 months before ever being looked at by the government. Then another 6-12 months to take affect if they agree with them. In sme cases it can be a 2 year process.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I've got a herding dog that's instinct is to herd. He herds when I tell him to and doesn't when I tell him not to....that's a well trained dog. You keep talking about instincts. A pack dog needs to be trained to walk at heel and lie down....doesn't seem to me that requires a special breed.

If you want to talk high energy, I've got a border collie...he still walks at heel when I tell him to and lies down when he's told. Obviously you've never been around a well trained dog.

Possibly we should shut down all hunting then because it's all a pandora's box. Come on Dave./..we are the only mountain jurisdiction that doesn't allow it...I ask again why are we so different that it wouldn't work here.....

You're not getting it Sheep. Would it surprise you that a Border Collie is rated the highest out of all other breeds for obedience and trainability......lol? It is your breed of DOG that is so intelligent!!!

You can't compare how easy it was to train your breed of dog with the trainability of all other breeds of dogs. Yours is the easiest and most intelligent of ALL other breeds!!! Some breeds are not as easy to train and are as dumb as a bag of hammers. They might never get it despite the amount of training that they receive. What would take your breed of dog 4 hours to learn it might take forever to train a different breed. It has as much to do with the breed of dog as the level/amount of training that they receive. In fact, I'll do a google search and find some sort of chart indicating just that.

The whole point that I brought up was that if anyone can take any dog out as a pack dog hunting the mountains, what stops someone from taking a dog out there that is not suitable as a pack dog and doesn't belong out there? Of course taking dogs out would work, why not? I never said that it wouldn't. I merely suggested that once you open the door to allowing dogs to accompany you while hunting you should also be prepared for people with "lesser" trained dogs to be out there with you.

BTW You were right about Burnese Mountain dogs not coming from Burma. They came from BERN, Switzerland (as in Swiss Alps). They were originally kept as general farm dogs, large Burnese Mountain Dogs in the past were also used as draft animals, pulling carts. Close enough to pack dogs for me.

[BeerSlayer1]

That dog's got a great look about him, love the ears.

[HunterDave]

Here ya go.

http://puppylovepreschool.blogspot.c...-rankings.html

According to a recent survey of over 100 AKC obedience judges, these are the top 10 breeds who exhibit a natural ability for working/obedience intelligence:

1. Border Collie
2. Poodle
3. Golden Retriever
4. German Shepherd
5. Doberman
6. Shetland Sheepdog
7. Labrador Retriever
8. Papillon
9. Rottweiler
10. Australian Cattle Dog

Originally Posted by HunterDave

You're not getting it Sheep. Would it surprise you that a Border Collie is rated the highest out of all other breeds for obedience and trainability......lol? It is your breed of DOG that is so intelligent!!!

You can't compare how easy it was to train your breed of dog with the trainability of all other breeds of dogs. Yours is the easiest and most intelligent of ALL other breeds!!! Some breeds are not as easy to train and are as dumb as a bag of hammers. They might never get it despite the amount of training that they receive. What would take your breed of dog 4 hours to learn it might take forever to train a different breed. It has as much to do with the breed of dog as the level/amount of training that they receive. In fact, I'll do a google search and find some sort of chart indicating just that.

The whole point that I brought up was that if anyone can take any dog out as a pack dog hunting the mountains, what stops someone from taking a dog out there that is not suitable as a pack dog and doesn't belong out there? Of course taking dogs out would work, why not? I never said that it wouldn't. I merely suggested that once you open the door to allowing dogs to accompany you while hunting you should also be prepared for people with "lesser" trained dogs to be out there with you.

BTW You were right about Burnese Mountain dogs not coming from Burma. They came from BERN, Switzerland (as in Swiss Alps). They were originally kept as general farm dogs, large Burnese Mountain Dogs in the past were also used as draft animals, pulling carts. Close enough to pack dogs for me.

Intelligence doesn't mean easy to train...in fact, often quite the opposite. Once they learn it they learn it but it doesn't mean they learn it easily. I've had working border collies for nearly 40 years. So tell me this...why is any breed permitted to hunt birds? Why isn't that breed specific. What stops people from taking dogs out there that don't belong? I can take my dog into sheep country today if I'm hunting ptarmigan but I can't if I'm hunting sheep...at the exact same time of year. What's the difference? And I ask for the third time...why does this seem to work just fine in a number of other jurisdictions and not here?

And Berns were trained to pull carts....they were bred to herd. I'm sure they could be trained to pack as well but they weren't bred to do it.

Allowing people to hunt deer opens the door to tresspassing and shooting from roads. Come on Dave....we don't need a nanny state...we need simple rules that people can follow.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Intelligence doesn't mean easy to train...in fact, often quite the opposite. Once they learn it they learn it but it doesn't mean they learn it easily. I've had working border collies for nearly 40 years. So tell me this...why is any breed permitted to hunt birds? Why isn't that breed specific. What stops people from taking dogs out there that don't belong? I can take my dog into sheep country today if I'm hunting ptarmigan but I can't if I'm hunting sheep...at the exact same time of year. What's the difference? And I ask for the third time...why does this seem to work just fine in a number of other jurisdictions and not here?

And Berns were trained to pull carts....they were bred to herd. I'm sure they could be trained to pack as well but they weren't bred to do it.

Allowing people to hunt deer opens the door to tresspassing and shooting from roads. Come on Dave....we don't need a nanny state...we need simple rules that people can follow.

That's easy, because not all breeds can hunt birds. Allot of breeds couldn't care less about birds and they won't hunt them for you. If I take my Yorkie Jack out bird hunting with me I'm the only one hunting....he's just going for a walk. The same goes with allot of other breeds and no matter how hard that you try to train them to hunt birds they aren't going to do it.

I don't see why it wouldn't work here, I'm sure that it would. I'm just saying that maybe not everyone that decides to take a dog out there, should. I wouldn't take my old Britt out there because I don't think that he's the right type of dog to be there but a different owner of the same exact dog might think it's okay to do.

As long as everyone realizes that when you sign a blank cheque saying that any dog is allowed to accompany you, anyone can take any dog out there. If you are prepared to share the bush with any dog then it's all good. I'm being being the devil's advocate here.

Originally Posted by HunterDave

That's easy, because not all breeds can hunt birds. Allot of breeds couldn't care less about birds and they won't hunt them for you. If I take my Yorkie Jack out bird hunting with me I'm the only one hunting....he's just going for a walk. The same goes with allot of other breeds and no matter how hard that you try to train them to hunt birds they aren't going to do it.

I don't see why it wouldn't work here, I'm sure that it would. I'm just saying that maybe not everyone that decides to take a dog out there, should. I wouldn't take my old Britt out there because I don't think that he's the right type of dog to be there but a different owner of the same exact dog might think it's okay to do.

As long as everyone realizes that when you sign a blank cheque saying that any dog is allowed to accompany you, anyone can take any dog out there. If you are prepared to share the bush with any dog then it's all good. I'm being being the devil's advocate here.

I didn't say they'd all chase birds....I just said they'd be in exactly the same position as a pack dog at the same time of year. It's basically already legal and it's not meyhem out there...what would change if you were carrying a rifle instead of a shotgun? I never said you could train them all to hunt bird but you can train ALL dogs to heel and lie down. Training a pack dog is so much simpler, nothing more than basic obedience.

A Devil's advocate brings contrary thought supported by evidence to a discussion...honestly I've seen none of that from you. You've just showed your lack of understanding of dogs and dog training......I appreciate a good devil's advocate....but in this discussion, I don't see you as being it.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

A Devil's advocate brings contrary thought supported by evidence to a discussion...honestly I've seen none of that from you. You've just showed your lack of understanding of dogs and dog training......I appreciate a good devil's advocate....but in this discussion, I don't see you as being it.

Devil's Advocate: "In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, just for the sake of argument. In taking such position, the individual taking on the devil's advocate role seeks to engage others in an argumentative discussion process. The purpose of such process is typically to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure, and to use such information to either improve or abandon the original, opposing position."

IMHO there really hasn't been any good points made to support such a proposal other than it'd be nice to have my dog with me.

[Tundra Monkey]

I don't understand what the problem is. This is not rocket science.

1) Teach your dog to "stay"
2) Teach your dog to "stay close"

Your dog will figure the rest out in time/experience or with any other time you'ld like to devote to it.

You should see the demeanor in my dog when the gear starts coming out.....she knows what's up and you can see the excitement building. It is not because she gets to go "chase" stuff around.....it's because she gets to go to work.

tm

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

IMHO there really hasn't been any good points made to support such a proposal other than it'd be nice to have my dog with me.

I think personal safety would be at the forefront.

I do not feel it is right to single out hunters when anyone else walking in the backcountry can have a dog.

I believe that a hunter pursuing game would be a "little more" pizzed at his dog for chasing game than a non-hunter would be and train his dog accordingly.

tm

[theycallmeNoah]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

We refer to it as the very long arm of the law

I refer to it as the "keeper of my sanity". We have three Britts. Need I say more?

[cover]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I didn't say they'd all chase birds....I just said they'd be in exactly the same position as a pack dog at the same time of year. It's basically already legal and it's not meyhem out there...what would change if you were carrying a rifle instead of a shotgun? I never said you could train them all to hunt bird but you can train ALL dogs to heel and lie down. Training a pack dog is so much simpler, nothing more than basic obedience.

A Devil's advocate brings contrary thought supported by evidence to a discussion...honestly I've seen none of that from you. You've just showed your lack of understanding of dogs and dog training......I appreciate a good devil's advocate....but in this discussion, I don't see you as being it.

I'll bite this "juicy worm" ...someone less ethical could then cast their high end cow dog to " get around " that band of rams leaving the drainage.... just sayin'...

[FCLightning]

Unless you want to have the prohibitions of hunting big game (all big game in all places) changed you will create an administrative nightmare allowing big game hunters to be accompanied by dogs. As has already been stated, many breeds of dogs can be trained for many tasks that they were not bred for. There would be no good way to determine if a dog were being used to aid in hunting or not. If you are willing to have your dog tethered to you with a 6 ft. lead at all times while out hunting then you could ask for an "accompanied in direct control" with such a determination of in direct control, but to ask for otherwise opens an unnecessary host of enforcement difficulties.

[Redfrog]

double tap

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by cover

I'll bite this "juicy worm" ...someone less ethical could then cast their high end cow dog to " get around " that band of rams leaving the drainage.... just sayin'...

Now that's funny.
Have you ever hunted sheep or had a stock dog?

it would be easier to nail jello to a tree.

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey

I do not feel it is right to single out hunters when anyone else walking in the backcountry can have a dog.

So long as it is illegal to use dog for the purpose of hunting big game then there will be a justifiable reason to single out hunters. No one will ever have to make a determination if a hiker is using the dog that accompanies him for the purpose of hunting. And no, it is not going to be immediately obvious in all cases whether a dog is being used to aid in the hunt or not. So, if you are in pursuit of big game, give up the dog. Reasonable and justifiable in the current law.

Originally Posted by cover

I'll bite this "juicy worm" ...someone less ethical could then cast their high end cow dog to " get around " that band of rams leaving the drainage.... just sayin'...

LOL.....I wouldn't say impossible but highly, highly highly unlikely. I've worked with high end stock dogs all my life and while they are amazing with "dog broke" stock, I've seen the challenges when you work them on stock not used to dogs. Throw a wild animal in the equation and I don't see it happening. Anyhow, it would be illegal.........

[cover]

Red... not pickin' up what yur puttin' down....

Originally Posted by FCLightning

So long as it is illegal to use dog for the purpose of hunting big game then there will be a justifiable reason to single out hunters. No one will ever have to make a determination if a hiker is using the dog that accompanies him for the purpose of hunting. And no, it is not going to be immediately obvious in all cases whether a dog is being used to aid in the hunt or not. So, if you are in pursuit of big game, give up the dog. Reasonable and justifiable in the current law.

Just curious if you spend a lot of time in the mountains in close proximity to grizzly bears FC.......I am unaware of a case of a grizzly issue where pack dogs were being used. A personal safety issue for sure and added safety for our precious grizzly bears as well. Think of the dog, under immediate control of the hunter, as an early warning system for both human and bear.

Originally Posted by FCLightning

So long as it is illegal to use dog for the purpose of hunting big game then there will be a justifiable reason to single out hunters. No one will ever have to make a determination if a hiker is using the dog that accompanies him for the purpose of hunting. And no, it is not going to be immediately obvious in all cases whether a dog is being used to aid in the hunt or not. So, if you are in pursuit of big game, give up the dog. Reasonable and justifiable in the current law.

I think you are a bit confused....no one is asking that dogs be used for hunting big game...just that big game hunters be permitted to be accompanied by a dog. They could in no way assist in the actual hunt. For the dog to chase, herd or molest game would be illegal.

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Think of the dog, under immediate control of the hunter, as an early warning system for both human and bear.

So you are asking for an exception for dogs on 6 ft. tether?

[cover]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

LOL.....I wouldn't say impossible but highly, highly highly unlikely. I've worked with high end stock dogs all my life and while they are amaqzing with "dog broke" stick, I've seen the challenges when you work them on stck not used to dogs. Throw a wild animal in the equation and I don't see it happening. Anyhow, it would be illegal.........

There are so many angles to this discussion it is hard to debate ....but if one spent most of their time in the sticks and alpine it would not take much for most border collies to figure out what you want .... check out www.versatiledogs.com and search the collie that knows lots of words... LOL

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by cover

Red... not pickin' up what yur puttin' down....

When a stock dog works stock that is not conditioned to a dig, he has all his ability taxed to the max. Once the stock is conditioned to the dog it becomes easier. Still not a slam dunk but easier. That's why competitions only have one winner.

Now move to hunting wild sheep in some of the toughest terrain on the planet where they run up a rock face and you stand with your mouth agape, and it is impossible to have any stock dog bring them back to the gun. It is tough enough to get a shot at a wild sheep, add a running dog to the mix and you may as well stay home.

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I think you are a bit confused....no one is asking that dogs be used for hunting big game...just that big game hunters be permitted to be accompanied by a dog. They could in no way assist in the actual hunt. For the dog to chase, herd or molest game would be illegal.

I am not confused at all. There is far too much room for interpretation of what may or may not constitute aiding in the hunt. You are opening a large grey area of enforcement when enforcement is difficult enough already.

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

So you are asking for an exception for dogs on 6 ft. tether?

Where did the six foot tether come from?

I have dogs that i hunt with or work stock with that are old and have not had a leash on since they were pups. We do not have pandemonium here.

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

So long as it is illegal to use dog for the purpose of hunting big game

This is not what is being questioned.

I would like to see a hunter allowed to be accompanied by his dog while hunting in the same manner that a non-hunter is able to have their dog with them.

As it is right now, I think it is legal in AB to hunt with dog if you were pursuing cougar (which obviously some one changed in the regs unless they don't consider them "big game") so it is possibly not as "tough" a process as we are making it out to be.

I would think that you could have your dog with you if you had a moose/sheep/deer tags in your pocket.....as long as you had a cougar tag in there as well.

tm