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  #121  
Old 01-08-2010, 01:13 AM
Swarovski Swarovski is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Sheepcrazyguy View Post
I have to agree. How could putting sheep on a draw possibly change the amount of short sheep shot? The only way to change that is stiffer fines and educating hunters on how to judge sheep. As always, if in doubt don't shoot.
Well said!
It is extremely difficult to age bighorns in the field and it would be very difficult to propose an age limit. However, at the end of the day harvesting old mature rams is what we all would like to see. I have always wondered if a point system would work...
Points would be assigned based on the age of the sheep once it was registered and we would need to do a better job of educating even the Fish and Wildlife on aging sheep.
For example:
10 years and older = no points and no wait time.
9 years = 1 point and wait 1 year
8 years = 2 points and wait 2 years
7 years = 3 points and wait 3 years
6 years = 4 points and wait 4 years
Numbers are completely arbitrary but you get the idea...
I believe it is possible to accurately age a ram on the ground up until approximately 10 years and past that it is still possible, however with growth rings becoming stacked and tips broomed beyond 2nd and 3rd year it becomes open to a little more interpretation.
This would encourage everyone to harvest mature rams and if they didn't they would have to wait a certain amount of time depending how old the ram that they harvested was. Any ram that was younger than 6 years would be subject to major fines and potentially loss of sheep hunting previlidges for a lifetime.
The point system theory has evolved from numerous days spent in the field with good friends hunting sheep and wondering where all the big rams are... followed by discussing ways to promote older mature rams being harvested.
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  #122  
Old 01-08-2010, 01:26 AM
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Increasing the years between successful hunts, only sounds like we would be punishing the experienced sheep hunters. Who have put in many years of blood and sweat to know what they know,and in no way does it help educate the less expierenced hunters. Stiffer fines and penalties would work as deterant better than anything. Eliminate motorized access completely in sheep area's, and perhaps even horse in some.Limit the amount of non resident hunting.
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  #123  
Old 01-08-2010, 06:54 AM
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10 years and older = no points and no wait time.
9 years = 1 point and wait 1 year
8 years = 2 points and wait 2 years
7 years = 3 points and wait 3 years
6 years = 4 points and wait 4 years

Wow i disagree wit that, a young huntr is out for his first sheep, shoots a legal 6 yr old sheep and is punished for the next four years NO HUNTING ! Theres a great message that my daughter would love! They are hard enough to get sometimes, and if its a legal sheep ....if the shot is taken , they get a year off already...I have no problem with that. But four years because shes excited / or theres an argument with F+W over a age ring / extra year off ! No thanks
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  #124  
Old 01-08-2010, 07:24 AM
bruceba bruceba is offline
 
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Originally Posted by pottymouth View Post
Increasing the years between successful hunts, only sounds like we would be punishing the experienced sheep hunters. Who have put in many years of blood and sweat to know what they know,and in no way does it help educate the less expierenced hunters.
I truly believe this is who is wanted out of the way. IMHO
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  #125  
Old 01-08-2010, 07:44 AM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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Originally Posted by pottymouth View Post
Increasing the years between successful hunts, only sounds like we would be punishing the experienced sheep hunters. Who have put in many years of blood and sweat to know what they know,and in no way does it help educate the less expierenced hunters.
i think they would stay plenty in the game as they do now guiding/teaching new people/family/friends etc. onto their rams while they either have the off year if they like to kill one every year or while they wait for mr. big.....and for the first group having only a couple three rams lifetime or longer waits will help get things bigger although they will be guiding newbies those same newbies after the first one will also hold out for better on a longer wait or if only can have 3 lifetime

i think argument is for coming up with ideas for increasing trophy quality and my comments directed at that, not trying to say things should be taken away from anyone but ultimately thats what would happen to somebody if some change is made

Last edited by Stinky Coyote; 01-08-2010 at 07:51 AM.
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  #126  
Old 01-08-2010, 08:54 AM
Tonto Tonto is offline
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Originally Posted by pottymouth View Post
Stiffer fines and penalties would work as deterant better than anything. Eliminate motorized access completely in sheep area's, and perhaps even horse in some.Limit the amount of non resident hunting.

Stiffer fines should be for all game, not just for sheep.
For some, access by motor is their only option.
I don't understand why you would want horse travel eliminated.
I don't think we should limit non-res hunting. I think we should ELIMINATE it.
Seems to work in Sask's favor with the mule deer.
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  #127  
Old 01-08-2010, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonto View Post
Stiffer fines should be for all game, not just for sheep.
For some, access by motor is their only option.
I don't understand why you would want horse travel eliminated.
I don't think we should limit non-res hunting. I think we should ELIMINATE it.
Seems to work in Sask's favor with the mule deer.
LOL...not sure I'd use Saskatchewan as a poster child for game/hunter management. There are non-resident bighorn hunts being offered right now only 20 minutes from Lloydminster. I'm sure you could shoot a 200-point mule deer in the same pen.
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  #128  
Old 01-08-2010, 09:22 AM
sheephunter
 
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Originally Posted by Swarovski View Post
Well said!
It is extremely difficult to age bighorns in the field and it would be very difficult to propose an age limit. However, at the end of the day harvesting old mature rams is what we all would like to see. I have always wondered if a point system would work...
Points would be assigned based on the age of the sheep once it was registered and we would need to do a better job of educating even the Fish and Wildlife on aging sheep.
For example:
10 years and older = no points and no wait time.
9 years = 1 point and wait 1 year
8 years = 2 points and wait 2 years
7 years = 3 points and wait 3 years
6 years = 4 points and wait 4 years
Numbers are completely arbitrary but you get the idea...
I believe it is possible to accurately age a ram on the ground up until approximately 10 years and past that it is still possible, however with growth rings becoming stacked and tips broomed beyond 2nd and 3rd year it becomes open to a little more interpretation.
This would encourage everyone to harvest mature rams and if they didn't they would have to wait a certain amount of time depending how old the ram that they harvested was. Any ram that was younger than 6 years would be subject to major fines and potentially loss of sheep hunting previlidges for a lifetime.
The point system theory has evolved from numerous days spent in the field with good friends hunting sheep and wondering where all the big rams are... followed by discussing ways to promote older mature rams being harvested.

I'm still not convinced that there's a problem with lots of guys shooting too many sheep but if it truely is a problem and it needs to be dealt with, this is a very creative solution. If there is an issue that needs to be addressed....I like it!
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  #129  
Old 01-08-2010, 09:37 AM
Tonto Tonto is offline
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To Pottymouth,

Stiffer fines should be for all game, not just for sheep.
For some, access by motor is their only option.
I don't understand why you would want horse travel eliminated.
I don't think we should limit non-res hunting. I think we should ELIMINATE it.
Seems to work in Sask's favor with the mule deer.
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  #130  
Old 01-08-2010, 09:58 AM
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If we define the actual problem better, the solution should become clearer. Are there too many sheep being taken legally? Or is the problem too many sheep are being taken illegally? If it's the former then a draw or spacing between when you can get a tag may need to be implemented.

If it's that too many sheep are being taken illegally then you need to look further. Is it purposeful poaching of big rams or people making mistakes and shooting "not-quite-legal" rams? Then it's either more enforcement or education, or both.

I think the SRD website could be used for a lot more training. Wouldn't it be cool to have a "sheep judging" page? Imagine you could view 10 clips of sheep seen through a scope where you would have to judge whether they were legal or not. Then you would be told how many you got right, highlighting how difficult it is. You could then select to move 100, 200 yards closer and view the clips again, which would highlight the value of stalking closer. The clips could be freeze-framed to provide a quick judging tutorial. We use lots of online training for our employees. It's not that hard to set up or costly to produce in the grand scheme of things. They could set up similar training for all kind of issues that they are having enforcement problems with.
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  #131  
Old 01-08-2010, 10:25 AM
Big Daddy Morton Big Daddy Morton is offline
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Originally Posted by Okotokian View Post
If we define the actual problem better, the solution should become clearer. Are there too many sheep being taken legally? Or is the problem too many sheep are being taken illegally? If it's the former then a draw or spacing between when you can get a tag may need to be implemented.

If it's that too many sheep are being taken illegally then you need to look further. Is it purposeful poaching of big rams or people making mistakes and shooting "not-quite-legal" rams? Then it's either more enforcement or education, or both.

I think the SRD website could be used for a lot more training. Wouldn't it be cool to have a "sheep judging" page? Imagine you could view 10 clips of sheep seen through a scope where you would have to judge whether they were legal or not. Then you would be told how many you got right, highlighting how difficult it is. You could then select to move 100, 200 yards closer and view the clips again, which would highlight the value of stalking closer. The clips could be freeze-framed to provide a quick judging tutorial. We use lots of online training for our employees. It's not that hard to set up or costly to produce in the grand scheme of things. They could set up similar training for all kind of issues that they are having enforcement problems with.
They do this in many of the sheep states down south and if the problem that SRD is trying to solve is "short sheep" then this would be a good start. Next would be bigger fines...if its close don't shoot, pretty simple, its no different with a 6 point elk. Its either 6 point or its not...pretty simple.
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  #132  
Old 01-08-2010, 10:45 AM
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In this area it seems the same few hunters every year that are responsible for the death of 3-4 rams each, they just buy tags for girlfreinds, or buddies, and in some cases it just seems,they feel they are proving they are good sheep hunters.But most times they are profiting from the sale of the capes.This should not be legal.There should be a way of tracking these capes,in order to prevent trafficing.Another area that needs to be looked at is what we can do to stop sheep mortaity due to vehicle collisions, Every year we lose a significant # of sheep on the highway, some are mature rams during the rut .Possibly the use of feed stations or salt licks away from the highway would help.The salt is what is attracting them in the first place.There are lots of good ideas, but we have to keep the solutions, simple, so that they are not, hard to understand or enforce.
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  #133  
Old 01-08-2010, 10:54 AM
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According to the studies I have read if we want larger horns we need to increase their foraging resources and decrease predation. I read somewhere that they did a 40-60 acre controlled burn in 400 to increase foraging resources for the sheep there. According to one study they did not feel that hunting was decreasing the horn sizes; they felt it was due to the food availability. Some would argue at this point that decreasing the ewe population would increase resources. I feel if resources could be increased and predation decreased you would increase horn size and availability of good rams. I would be interested to see if creating foraging areas with easy escape from predators would be of benefit. My 2 cents as a greenhorn.
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  #134  
Old 01-08-2010, 11:05 AM
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Just out of interest, what did the fish cops age that 200" ram at this year????

tm
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  #135  
Old 01-08-2010, 11:48 AM
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According to the studies I have read if we want larger horns we need to increase their foraging resources and decrease predation. I read somewhere that they did a 40-60 acre controlled burn in 400 to increase foraging resources for the sheep there. According to one study they did not feel that hunting was decreasing the horn sizes; they felt it was due to the food availability. Some would argue at this point that decreasing the ewe population would increase resources. I feel if resources could be increased and predation decreased you would increase horn size and availability of good rams. I would be interested to see if creating foraging areas with easy escape from predators would be of benefit. My 2 cents as a greenhorn.
Forage is for sure a must for growing Trophy rams. But there are a few zones that dont have the genetics to grow them big rams.
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  #136  
Old 01-08-2010, 11:53 AM
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Just out of interest, what did the fish cops age that 200" ram at this year????

tm
OK....I went back and looked. Only a three suspension for killing that hog!!!!!

tm
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  #137  
Old 01-08-2010, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey View Post
Just out of interest, what did the fish cops age that 200" ram at this year????

tm
I didn't hear about the story of this hog, what are the specifics? I see your next post you stated he got 3 years suspension?
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  #138  
Old 01-08-2010, 12:39 PM
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Hey Pod....just me being a smart azz.

If you do a search in the hunting section (what a hunt) you will find the thread about a forum member that killed a 200+" ram this season......the Wildlife Officers officially aged it at 7yrs old

By using the suspension system noted above.....the guy would be banned from hunting big horns for 3 years for shooting a 200+" ram.

Maybe he should have just marked it and waited 3 more years to pull the trigger

They are tough to judge in the field.....they must be just as tough to judge on the table

No way in HEdblhockeysticks was he a 7yr old......well for sure he was at one time I guess

tm
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  #139  
Old 01-08-2010, 12:48 PM
sheephunter
 
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Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey View Post
Hey Pod....just me being a smart azz.

If you do a search in the hunting section (what a hunt) you will find the thread about a forum member that killed a 200+" ram this season......the Wildlife Officers officially aged it at 7yrs old

By using the suspension system noted above.....the guy would be banned from hunting big horns for 3 years for shooting a 200+" ram.

Maybe he should have just marked it and waited 3 more years to pull the trigger

They are tough to judge in the field.....they must be just as tough to judge on the table

No way in HEdblhockeysticks was he a 7yr old......well for sure he was at one time I guess

tm
It is interesting but a lot of the truly monster rams aren't that old. There have been several book rams out of Montana that were only 5 years old. It seems some of the really big rams have a fairly short life span...9-10 years but they really put a lot into horn growth in that period. On the other hand, most very old rams don't grow monsterous horns. Obviously there are exceptions in both cases but age and B&C score don't correlate like many people think.
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  #140  
Old 01-08-2010, 12:58 PM
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I'm not gonna argue with ya but I'd be curious to find out how many 200" rams are 7 or less. Maybe a few just outside of Lloyd??

I'm going to do a little googling on it now

tm
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  #141  
Old 01-08-2010, 01:30 PM
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Wow that's a tough search

There is not a lot of info about the correlation of age and B&C scores.

What I'm finding is that some "fast growing" animals will reach 4/5th curl by age 4yrs but it is usually in the 5-6yr age. This is still a far cry from a 200" ram IMO

tm
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  #142  
Old 01-08-2010, 01:49 PM
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What I'm finding is that some "fast growing" animals will reach 4/5th curl by age 4yrs but it is usually in the 5-6yr age. This is still a far cry from a 200" ram IMO
Only a very, very tiny percentage of the population has the potential to ever make 200 inches...regardless of how long they live. I'd venture to guess that vast majority in Alberta don't even have the potential to make 180 inches. Lots do but more don't. Montana seems to produce more of the young monster rams than anywhere else. I suspect it's a combination of easy winters, high protein food and good genetics.
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  #143  
Old 01-08-2010, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
I suspect it's a combination of easy winters, high protein food and good genetics.
I'd agree with that but the winters can't be that different from Southern Alberta to Montana.

Take a look at the ram in the "what a hunt" thread......you think he was 7???

In the aforementioned scenario that you "like", do you really think that he should be lose his right to hunt sheep for 3 years because of that ram?

I guess my problem lies with the CO that aged him at 7 and the credentials that he has to make a decision that affects something that some hold very dearly. What do you do with a sheep (say 12yrs in real time) that has done a ton of housework?

My experience is strictly thinhorn....but I'd shoot a nasty ol' busted up guy that was obviosly really old over his pretty little 9yr old buddy.....but I like that....plus I don't have one yet Now....if his buddy was 40+ it might be a different story

tm
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  #144  
Old 01-08-2010, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
Only a very, very tiny percentage of the population has the potential to ever make 200 inches...regardless of how long they live. I'd venture to guess that vast majority in Alberta don't even have the potential to make 180 inches. Lots do but more don't. Montana seems to produce more of the young monster rams than anywhere else. I suspect it's a combination of easy winters, high protein food and good genetics.
I've never been to Montana - do some of the sheep winter on tame pasture or farmland? I know in Texas most of the wild sheep live on privately held land.
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  #145  
Old 01-08-2010, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey View Post
I'd agree with that but the winters can't be that different from Southern Alberta to Montana.

Take a look at the ram in the "what a hunt" thread......you think he was 7???

In the aforementioned scenario that you "like", do you really think that he should be lose his right to hunt sheep for 3 years because of that ram?


tm
The second he put the ram down, he lost the ability to hunt sheep for a year under current law.

If you go back and read my comments about Swaros scenario, I only like it if guys shooting multiple rams really is an issue. I don't believe it is but there seems to be a lot of presure right now to keep successful sheep hunters out of the field longer. If the government buys into it, then Swaros scenario seems to be the best option that I've seen. Honestly, I'd happily sit out three years if I killed a 200-point ram...lol

No, I definitely wouldn't say that ram was 7 years old.

Yes, I'd say winters are eaasier and the herds that produce the "super" rams winter on some pretty high protein feed.
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  #146  
Old 01-08-2010, 02:31 PM
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I've never been to Montana - do some of the sheep winter on tame pasture or farmland? I know in Texas most of the wild sheep live on privately held land.
Ya, some herds do winter on tame pasture.
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  #147  
Old 01-08-2010, 02:41 PM
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Leaving the age up to a CO may be worse than the 4/5th or full curl crap. Here is a close up from the side of those horns what do you think his age is?

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  #148  
Old 01-08-2010, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey View Post
Hey Pod....just me being a smart azz.

If you do a search in the hunting section (what a hunt) you will find the thread about a forum member that killed a 200+" ram this season......the Wildlife Officers officially aged it at 7yrs old

By using the suspension system noted above.....the guy would be banned from hunting big horns for 3 years for shooting a 200+" ram.

Maybe he should have just marked it and waited 3 more years to pull the trigger

They are tough to judge in the field.....they must be just as tough to judge on the table

No way in HEdblhockeysticks was he a 7yr old......well for sure he was at one time I guess

tm

both podman and i are the ones in that story and it scored under 200 actually but ya that was a big question of mine if fish and wildlife put him at 7 and a ton of other guys ive talked to cant even give me a definite age on a sheep like that im thinking its pretty hard to age bighorns on the hoof. the one on the right is just for reference

[/IMG]

[/IMG]
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  #149  
Old 01-08-2010, 02:49 PM
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At least 10 1/2 yrs.old by the rings
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  #150  
Old 01-08-2010, 02:49 PM
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I'm at 10.......and I'm erring on the light side......quite easily 12 but there is some pretty tight years there.

tm
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