$$$ whitetail allocations $$$

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

That's right, it should be adjusted as soon as possible.

And from what I remember the outfitters voluntarily stopped using the allocations after that first season.

It should have been adjusted immediately, for the benefit of the game population, as happened with resident tags being immediately reduced by over 90%. Yes it would have resulted in the outfitters having to cancel some hunts, but this should be about the welfare of the game population, not about the money the outfitters would make from those tags.
And yes, I heard about a few outfitters making a token gesture, by supposedly not using a tag or two, but this was not even remotely close to the scale of the reduction in resident tags.
Once again, Saskatchewan did what was right for the population, by suspending the pronghorn season.

[rcmc]

Originally Posted by bigwolf

Iv never read a thread with this much false information. Wow

Please enlighten us, we're all ears.

[hayseed]

Originally Posted by bigwolf

Iv never read a thread with this much false information. Wow

Well, ain't too late to set it all straight.... Interesting thread...

[antlerguy]

I would think it is time to lock this down as the thread is all about outfitters verses residents and nowhere near what the op asked.

[rcmc]

I see no need at all.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by antlerguy

I would think it is time to lock this down as the thread is all about outfitters verses residents and nowhere near what the op asked.

Hiway Mike answered my question.



Thanks Mike!

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by antlerguy

I would think it is time to lock this down as the thread is all about outfitters verses residents and nowhere near what the op asked.

Why ???

Nobody is being rude or using profanity

It's a forum for discussing topics, so discuss or move along !!!

[sns2]

Originally Posted by antlerguy

I would think it is time to lock this down as the thread is all about outfitters verses residents and nowhere near what the op asked.

How do people learn other's points of views without discussion? Everyone is being respectful even if they have strong opinions, myself included. Why would anyone shut this down?

[sevenmil]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

No you don't. The crown does, just like oil and gas, forestry, and minerals.


And it's all for sale !

Because after all we need industry

No, it is not all for sale.

Yes, technically the Wildlife in Canada is all owned by the Crown.
But each province can and should come up with it's own management plan.

If said plan calls for a maximum of 10% outfitter tags per zone, it needs to be enforced.


I too believe Saskatchewan has it right when it comes to managing their mule deer population.

It takes six years now to draw a tag in the zone where I reside. Outfitter tags make up 30% of the antlered mule deer tags in this zone.
I have a reason and a right to be a little upset about it.
As does every other resident who believes their opportunities could be more.

You can tell residents all you want to quit complaining, but that is our right.

If we stood back and did nothing how many tags do you think we would end up with in the end?

A few years ago the government tried to cram HFH (Hunting for Habitat)
down our throats. It was just about passed into law when the general public got a whiff of it. Well we put up a good fight and got it stopped. If we hadn't, our hunting opportunities as residents would really be in the trash.

I don't care if the outfitter allotments are only out of whack in just a few zones. It is still wrong. And if it cuts into resident hunter opportunities, who are you to tell us to not worry about it?????

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by sevenmil

No, it is not all for sale


I too believe Saskatchewan has it right when it comes to managing their mule deer population.


I don't care if the outfitter allotments are only out of whack in just a few zones. It is still wrong. And if it cuts into resident hunter opportunities, who are you to tell us to not worry about it?????

Yes it is. Canada needs to sell its resources to fund our economy, that's why we have been so prosperous.

Saskatchewan is not all perfect either. Every reservation in the province allows Mule deer hunting and outfitting by their residents. In northern Saskatchewan each WMU has dozens of outfitters and hundreds of allocations for Whitetail. Of course this means nothing to the people that don't live there.

I never said the allocation percentage being out of whack in a few zones was right. It should be a hard and fast rule of 90% and 10%. But in any government/government appointed managed sector there will be imperfections.

I guess I'm an optimist, I'm very happy to have well over 95% of the hunting opportunities in the province, I'm ok with sharing a little bit so we can bring tens of millions of dollars in revenue into the province each year.

[wildwoods]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Yes it is. Canada needs to sell its resources to fund our economy, that's why we have been so prosperous.

Saskatchewan is not all perfect either. Every reservation in the province allows Mule deer hunting and outfitting by their residents. In northern Saskatchewan each WMU has dozens of outfitters and hundreds of allocations for Whitetail. Of course this means nothing to the people that don't live there.

I never said the allocation percentage being out of whack in a few zones was right. It should be a hard and fast rule of 90% and 10%. But in any government/government appointed managed sector there will be imperfections.

I guess I'm an optimist, I'm very happy to have well over 95% of the hunting opportunities in the province, I'm ok with sharing a little bit so we can bring tens of millions of dollars in revenue into the province each year.

Round and round she goes. This post says it all for me^^^. People tend to forget we are resource rich nation and wealth abounds as a result. It's a no brainer to me that non res aliens bring millions in revenue to the people of this province as a direct result of outfitting. It has nothing to do with being fair or allowing equal opportunity. I'm very happy with what we have in this province- there's nothing like it. I had tags and hunted for 9-10 big game animals last year myself. Not that I filled them all but it sure made for an exciting season. I don't want that reduced but the reality is, as populations grow, we will have less opportunity. Fixing the "resident" requirements isthe #1 thing hindering even more opportunity than we already have.
It's nonsense to think we can shut down or severely cripple a whole industry for our own personal gain. We have it made. These are the good old days of hunting right now. It only gets worse from here. Don't blame the outfitters. I'm positive there are areas out of balance as have been brought to the table by Chuck and others- that perhaps merit some answers. However, for this resident hunter I'm a happy camper.
I've read the first three pages and it's clear to me some just don't like the industry and don't understand or care about the economic benefits of hosting non res aliens. We need these folks, just like we need people buying our soft wood, oil and gas the list goes on and on.
I have a contracting business. Our houses are mostly built with wane-edged lumber that they stamp a Grade 1 or 2 on. All of the premium stuff gets shipped out of country. While we would love to build daily with straight, no wane or knotted up SPF, we understand the economic benefits of shipping the primo stuff to Japan et al.
Opportunity exists:
Went to Wyoming last fall for an archery antelope hunt. I would DIY it next time but the whole trip cost me around $3500-$4000 canadian. That's peanuts for a world class hunt with a guide in tow. I could seriously DIY that trip for less than half of that. Auodad with Javelina and Bobcat (6 days) next February in Texas will be around the same or a little more. That is in most people's grasp to save for a hunt like that every few years or heck, every 10. Thankfully they open up their borders for me and my friends to come out and enjoy that.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by NCC

The only guy I personally know who has bought allocations paid about $5000 for his WT and MD tags in the Rocky Mountain House Area. I don't think he has sold a hunt in the last two years. It ain't what it used to be.

My friend from Texas that used to come to Alberta every year for white tails now goes to the Yukon every third year and gets to pull the trigger more often for the same amount of dollars and a much higher quality hunt (costs and trigger pulls averaged over a 9 year period).

I am 100% in favour of non-resident hunting but not as it currently exists. Put all of the non-resident tags on draw. Once you draw a tag you find an outfitter. That way the bios can adjust the tag numbers as needed without feeling as though they need to compensate the outfitters. It will also allow the outfitters that offer a good hunt to rise to the top.

Putting non-res hunters on a draw would sure screw up a lot of those Americans that bought and paid for a good number of Alberta's Outfitter allocations. Great idea !

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Putting non-res hunters on a draw would sure screw up a lot of those Americans that bought and paid for a good number of Alberta's Outfitter allocations. Great idea !

And that brings up the question. How much of this resource is funnelling into the US economy?

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by chuck

And that brings up the question. How much of this resource is funnelling into the US economy?

Not much lol

With the cost of operating these hunts there isn't much left
After expenses. Especially if you're paying an outfitter to manage your outfit as an American owner.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Not much lol

With the cost of operating these hunts there isn't much left
After expenses. Especially if you're paying an outfitter to manage your outfit as an American owner.

What is "not much". And why then is there so much money going into our economy then?

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by chuck

What is "not much". And why then is there so much money going into our economy then?

Well if an American owned it and was paying an outfitter to manage it and hold the license I would say under 10% profit, if he didn't borrow to purchase those allocations.

Not sure if the second half of your question is a joke or not ???

Are you not aware that all the expenses we pay with money made from hunts is going directly into our economy?

Wages, taxes, fuel, equipment, food, insurance and two dozen other things we buy each year, and the people employed by those places we shop. That's all going into our Alberta economy.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by chuck

What is "not much". And why then is there so much money going into our economy then?

Exactly. Just how much more goes into our economy from a non resident hunter , compared to a resident hunter who travels to a different part of the province, stays at a motel, and purchases fuel, meals etc? As well, resident hunters are generally purchasing their hunting gear right here in Alberta, and use the services of our Alberta meat processers and taxidermists.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Exactly. Just how much more goes into our economy from a non resident hunter , compared to a resident hunter who travels to a different part of the province, stays at a motel, and purchases fuel, meals etc? As well, resident hunters are generally purchasing their hunting gear right here in Alberta, and use the services of our Alberta meat processers and taxidermists.

Are you guys joking ????

ALL OF IT !!!!

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Are you guys joking ????

ALL OF IT !!!!

And when I draw a pronghorn tag, or any other tag that I won't use locally, I put extra money into our economy , that I normally would not. I purchase fuel for the duration of the hunt, I stay at a motel, purchase meals, groceries, a drink or two every night after the hunt, as well as purchasing other supplies in the community. As well some people purchase special gear for the hunt that they normally would not purchase. Then after the hunt, I generally use the services of a local butcher, and a local taxidermist. So no, not every dollar that a non resident spends to hunt here, is an extra dollar going into our economy.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

And when I draw a pronghorn tag, or any other tag that I won't use locally, I put extra money into our economy , that I normally would not. I purchase fuel for the duration of the hunt, I stay at a motel, purchase meals, groceries, a drink or two every night after the hunt, as well as purchasing other supplies in the community. As well some people purchase special gear for the hunt that they normally would not purchase. Then after the hunt, I generally use the services of a local butcher, and a local taxidermist. So no, not every dollar that a non resident spends to hunt here, is an extra dollar going into our economy.

Actually it is. Your money is made in this province, it came from here and it gets spent here.

Nobody is saying resident hunters don't spend money on hunting, but you guys are questioning how much of the money spent by a non resident hunter goes into our economy. To which I replied all of it, which it is.

[fish_e_o]

what i don't like is that i can't go out and buy a tag but other people can. it would help outfitters sell their tags every year and make me happy

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Actually it is. Your money is made in this province, it came from here and it gets spent here.

Nobody is saying resident hunters don't spend money on hunting, but you guys are questioning how much of the money spent by a non resident hunter goes into our economy. To which I replied all of it, which it is.

No my money does not all get spent here in Alberta. If I don't get drawn for a tag, the odds are that I will take a vacation outside of Alberta, and likely outside of Canada, so that money will end up contributing to an economy outside Alberta. And if I do as you and some other people have suggested, and book a hunt outside of Alberta, a very large portion of my hunting budget will be spent outside of Alberta. So when you consider my money is being removed from the Alberta economy, as a result of some non resident's money being spent in Alberta, the Alberta economy really doesn't gain anything.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

No my money does not all get spent here in Alberta. If I don't get drawn for a tag, the odds are that I will take a vacation outside of Alberta, and likely outside of Canada, so that money will end up contributing to an economy outside Alberta. And if I do as you and some other people have suggested, and book a hunt outside of Alberta, a very large portion of my hunting budget will be spent outside of Alberta. So when you consider my money is being removed from the Alberta economy, as a result of some non resident's money being spent in Alberta, the Alberta economy really doesn't gain anything.

That is by far the most ridiculous statement I have ever read on this forum.

Go ahead and list off all the out of country hunts you've done because you didn't get a draw tag to make up for the 100 Million dollars of money injected into the Alberta economy each and every year.

I hope you didn't study economics in school !!! 😉

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

That is by far the most ridiculous statement I have ever read on this forum.

Go ahead and list off all the out of country hunts you've done because you didn't get a draw tag to make up for the 100 Million dollars of money injected into the Alberta economy each and every year.

I hope you didn't study economics in school !!! 😉

So you are going to try and tell us that the non resident hunters that hunted species that resident hunters would have had to draw tags for brings in 100million dollars every year?

Lets look at pronghorns, how many allocations are there? How much money does that bring in every year? How many Alberta residents do you suppose travel outside of Alberta to hunt pronghorns on a regular basis? I know of several myself, and I certainly don't know them all. Now when you take the money that outfitter allocations for pronghorn bring to the Alberta economy, and subtract the money that Alberta residents spend outside Alberta to hunt pronghorn, how much does Alberta gain from those outfitter allocations for pronghorn? As well, some people that didn't draw a tag , used the extra time off , and money to vacation outside of Alberta on non hunting vacations, which still takes money out of our economy. The number isn't huge, but then neither is the income generated by all of the pronghorn allocations combined.

Then look at mule deer and add up what Alberta gains every year from those mule deer allocations.

So how many million dollars does Alberta receive every year from both pronghorn and mule deer allocations combined? It's a long ways from 100 million, likely closer to 5 million? And when you take away the dollars Alberta loses because residents vacation outside of Alberta because they couldn't draw those tags, the number shrinks to even less, and it certainly isn't the huge impact on our Alberta economy that some people would have us believe.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

So you are going to try and tell us that the non resident hunters that hunted species that resident hunters would have had to draw tags for brings in 100million dollars every year?

Lets look at pronghorns, how many allocations are there? How much money does that bring in every year? How many Alberta residents do you suppose travel outside of Alberta to hunt pronghorns on a regular basis? I know of several myself, and I certainly don't know them all. Now when you take the money that outfitter allocations for pronghorn bring to the Alberta economy, and subtract the money that Alberta residents spend outside Alberta to hunt pronghorn, how much does Alberta gain from those outfitter allocations for pronghorn?

Then look at mule deer and add up what Alberta gains every year from those mule deer allocations.

So how many million does Alberta receive every year from both pronghorn and mule deer?

Right, so just use antelope and draw Mule deer ?

What about sheep ? Lots of people complain about that too

How about moose and elk ? Chucks mad about the moose, I'm sure somebody else doesn't want elk hunters either.

So Cougar ? Nope, hound guys don't want those non residents to share with

Whitetails and bears then ? Only where no resident wants to hunt them, maybe up north where there's no roads ?

You can't pick and choose what "you" are ok with staying or going. There's somebody out there that wants it all gone.

100 million dollars of money goes into the Alberta economy every year because of the outfitting industry. That's 100 million that wouldn't be coming here if there was no non resident allocations.

And for that, you share maybe 5% (likely less if I crunched the numbers) of the total hunting opportunities in this province. If you honestly have a problem with that you are one dam greedy person in my opinion.

[DiabeticKripple]

If a species is on draw in a WMU, then there should be NO outfitters allocations for that WMU. If you can get a general tag, then the outfitters should be allowed to have allocations.

There are plenty of species that have general tags, or open seasons across the province.

Residents come before money.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Exactly. Just how much more goes into our economy from a non resident hunter , compared to a resident hunter who travels to a different part of the province, stays at a motel, and purchases fuel, meals etc? As well, resident hunters are generally purchasing their hunting gear right here in Alberta, and use the services of our Alberta meat processers and taxidermists.

I tried to make this point somewhere in the thread. Other than a tip to the guide, I don't really think there is any difference. Maybe the non-resident would spend more is my guess.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by DiabeticKripple

Residents come before money.

Just like oil and gas, forestry, farming, ranching ????

We need money to survive. Just because you work in a different industry doesn't mean it's not important to the people that do.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by DiabeticKripple

If a species is on draw in a WMU, then there should be NO outfitters allocations for that WMU. If you can get a general tag, then the outfitters should be allowed to have allocations.

There are plenty of species that have general tags, or open seasons across the province.

Residents come before money.

They should, but they don't.

Where APOS is concerned, nothing counts but the money, and perhaps that is why so many APOS members, including some past members of the executive have a record of convictions for violations. For those people, money even comes before the regulations. And even after they have been convicted several times for both violations of the Wildlife Act, and the Criminal Act, they are allowed to remain a member of APOS, and they get to keep their allocations and keep outfitting.

[DiabeticKripple]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Just like oil and gas, forestry, farming, ranching ????

We need money to survive. Just because you work in a different industry doesn't mean it's not important to the people that do.

I'm not saying eliminate outfitting. We need to regulate it more so it doesn't get out of check.

If a resident cannot get a certain tag, a non-resident should not be able to pay for that tag.