Subsistence hunting- OFFICIAL thread

[SmokinJoe]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Based on your previous post about how you would like to see things happen as far as wildlife management in Alberta is concerned, I am quite glad that the province isn't buying into your ideas.

Coming from an outfitter I bet

[Kanonfodder]

Anybody got any actual proof of these 400 kills, links, ESRD statements, news stories, pictures? All I see is a truck with CWD heads in it....

[Squeaker]

Its not just natives fault this is happening either tho I am not beating up on them as a group ,I am beating up on the ones doing it being greedy as they know 100% what they are doing is wrong and just proves they have no ethics in the field of hunting ..

On that note it is also and has also lots to due with the ranchers in this area for making this possible and allowing it to go on they are the ones with most of the final say and because ESRD are to lazy to get off there A**'S and do anything about it along with the management groups our government has put in place to allow this to take place is where the true problem is..

So Really you wanna point a figure point it at a small group of un-ethical Saskatchewan natives for having no respect and a group of pouting ranchers that cant wait for something ethical to be done about it and The BIGGEST PROBLEM a bunch of lazy ESRD and government management officials for turning a blind eye and trying to find some quick CHEEP answer to it all.

[SmokinJoe]

Originally Posted by Kanonfodder

Anybody got any actual proof of these 400 kills, links, ESRD statements, news stories, pictures? All I see is a truck with CWD heads in it....

X2

[Deer Hunter]

There is no point getting worked up over this. This is just the beginning of this stuff. Become immune to it.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by SmokinJoe

Coming from an outfitter I bet

Wrong, I am just as opposed to APOS having a say in how our game populations are managed. I am for the game being managed fairly for all Alberta residents, with no group having any special privileges.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by SmokinJoe

Coming from an outfitter I bet

Far from it

[pottymouth]

[QUOTE=elkhunter11;2702431]There is a very good reason that ESRD chose to only give out antlerless tags, that being that it will have the greatest effect in reducing the population. The bottom line is that people that are choosing to take the large trophy bulls instead of killing antlerless elk, aren't really all that interested in helping to reduce the population.



Given that every draw tag is taken into account while managing the animal populations, then yes, it is okay. If that family draws three pronghorn tags in one year, then none of those three people is going to be drawing any more pronghorn tags for many years. On the other hand, a subsistence hunter could kill a pronghorn every year, which will have a great deal more effect on the population.[/QUOTE]

Great example.

These issues, don't only pertain to Suffield....Bighorn sheep, Grizz, fisheries, education..etc.... Why should there be a division?

We are all equal!

[Squeaker]

Originally Posted by SmokinJoe

Give it a rest already, there was not a single 400 class bull in that picture, and maybe 2 over 350.... From what I understand that pic was in the check in station, meaning heads were turned over.

What's the difference in going to where a guy usually hunts and driving for 4 days and a couple thousand kilometres and not seeing one or driving 400 and seeing 1000, what would you do? It's not a problem it's a solution

Pretty **** poor solution !! and I never said there was a 400 class bull taken I said trophy bulls being taken and the number of bulls killed and turned in for head counts has been close to 400 elk !! as what ever comes out of the area are being asked to turn in not my problem ESRD wont fill the public in on this ! Stuff just happens to get leaked out when people don't like what they are seeing !

But hey then there are some guys who just think this is best Right Smoking joe!!

[Squeaker]

[QUOTE=pottymouth;2702507]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

There is a very good reason that ESRD chose to only give out antlerless tags, that being that it will have the greatest effect in reducing the population. The bottom line is that people that are choosing to take the large trophy bulls instead of killing antlerless elk, aren't really all that interested in helping to reduce the population.



Given that every draw tag is taken into account while managing the animal populations, then yes, it is okay. If that family draws three pronghorn tags in one year, then none of those three people is going to be drawing any more pronghorn tags for many years. On the other hand, a subsistence hunter could kill a pronghorn every year, which will have a great deal more effect on the population.[/QUOTE]

Great example.

These issues, don't only pertain to Suffield....Bighorn sheep, Grizz, fisheries, education..etc.... Why should there be a division?

We are all equal!

X1000 on that comment!!

[slickwilly]

Bobalong, I think I am with you for the most part.
http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/110.../1100100020668
As of 2008, the number of Registered Indians was just over 100,000 in AB.
Page 7 of this document: http://www.acr-alberta.com/Portals/0...%20Alberta.pdf
shows the majority of the population is skewed north of slave lake. Hunting pressure in AB by natives is seriously a drop in the bucket. Especially in the central and southern regions of the province, where it is land access, and not tag availability that limits the hunting pressure.
Besides a blind sense of injustice that another group of people is being treated differently, I don't think there is a logical conservation based argument to be made that native hunting is a problem.
As for Suffield specifically. Its basically a glorified game farm. Who cares who shoots the bulls? Once the numbers are down, I am sure whoever is in control can limit access to natives and non-natives alike.

[Squeaker]

Originally Posted by slickwilly

Bobalong, I think I am with you for the most part.
http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/110.../1100100020668
As of 2008, the number of Registered Indians was just over 100,000 in AB.
Page 7 of this document: http://www.acr-alberta.com/Portals/0...%20Alberta.pdf
shows the majority of the population is skewed north of slave lake. Hunting pressure in AB by natives is seriously a drop in the bucket. Especially in the central and southern regions of the province, where it is land access, and not tag availability that limits the hunting pressure.
Besides a blind sense of injustice that another group of people is being treated differently, I don't think there is a logical conservation based argument to be made that native hunting is a problem.
As for Suffield specifically. Its basically a glorified game farm. Who cares who shoots the bulls? Once the numbers are down, I am sure whoever is in control can limit access to natives and non-natives alike.

The problem is there is people that have been waiting and applying faithfully for 10+ years of there life waiting for that tag ..Why should the be ripped off and cheated out of there chances for a decent once in a life time hunt ? Guess the government should give those 21,000 people that apply there ,their money back for there draw applications hey ? Hahaha

[Kanonfodder]

Originally Posted by Squeaker

Pretty **** poor solution !! and I never said there was a 400 class bull taken I said trophy bulls being taken and the number of bulls killed and turned in for head counts has been close to 400 elk !! as what ever comes out of the area are being asked to turn in not my problem ESRD wont fill the public in on this ! Stuff just happens to get leaked out when people don't like what they are seeing !

But hey then there are some guys who just think this is best Right Smoking joe!!

To repeat....

Anybody got any actual proof of these 400 kills, links, ESRD statements, news stories, pictures? All I see is a truck with CWD heads in it....

[Squeaker]

Hey smoking joe when suffield was full of all the wild mustangs and the ranchers were crying about there being to many of them out there where were the natives and there subsistence hunting then ? I didn't see them out there shooting horses and they could have by law , or captured them ..so how come its such a big difference now that its 300 class bull elk ? hope you not gonna tell me its subsistence hunting !!

[justhunt]

To me the definition of subsistence hunting is NOT trophy hunting and there should be a requirement to follow certain guidelines as to what subsistence hunting can include. In my opinion anyways subsistence hunting should not be a truckload of 380" class bull elk nor should it be a bighorn ram in the rut! In my opinion first nations have the right to subsistence hunt but should have to follow the same rules as everyone else when it comes to tough to draw tags or trophy hunting.

[Squeaker]

Originally Posted by Kanonfodder

To repeat....

Anybody got any actual proof of these 400 kills, links, ESRD statements, news stories, pictures? All I see is a truck with CWD heads in it....

Just give it a bit of time it will show up !

[dsh352]

Very interesting comments and this should not be about bashing rights that are afforded under treaties. As mentioned earlier and pointed out by "riden", treaties do cross provincial borders. In that regard, treaty holders can and should be afforded the rights granted to hunt within those treaties.

What we see here now is that folks from Ontario or eastern provinces come to Alberta and hunt just because they are card holders elsewhere and that should not be allowed from a wildlife conservation standpoint. Other Provinces insist on and Enforce this provision. Simply put, they don't want card holders from Alberta going east and shooting moose. Over here, there is no holding back and folks travel from all over to come here and hunt. Some of course move here but you should have to hunt in YOUR TREATY area only or abide by hunting reg's if outside of it.

Right now we have lots of folks from back east living and working in AB and hunting under treaty cards. They are hunting sheep and other species that aren't even present in treaty areas where they come from. How and why would we allow this? Other Provinces do not allow folks to exercise that right outside of treaty area and I don't know how they manage it but they do. Ab needs to go there.

I am all for wise use and lawful, reasonable Native status hunting. As stated in threads this is supported under treaties and will not change so we must work with it. However, we must remember that conservation is the key. The Provinces can enforce conservation rules and that is upheld by the Supreme Court of Canada in the Sparrow Decision. That allows the Province to consult with Native people and to enforce conservation measures to protect wildlife.

The problem with that is the Government in AB is not doing it. As an example, they have closed caribou hunting for 35 years now and Grizzlies for a decade or so. They are listed as threatened and/or endangered. I say VERY arguably for Grizzlies but that's another topic... Even with these two species, the government does not enforce conservation closures on native hunting. I find this amazing and bizarre!! Right now, treaty card holders from anywhere can hunt caribou or grizzlies here for Subsistence. Ever wonder why AB refuses to even protect these species which they claim are so worthy of protection?

Someone else mentioned "New Albertan's" and this is also related as a threat to OUR wildlife. Ab is the only jurisdiction I know of that DOES NOT have a timeframe on new residents. Most are one year. Some are 6-9 months, Yukon/NWT I believe are 2 years. Why the heck don't we have one in our Booming Province? I see folks come here from all over and they instantly are residents once ID gets changed. In same season they are hunting and applying for draws on even keel. I say that is unfair, putting a real strain on things and affecting opportunity big time. Why, with all the issue currently with Trophy Sheep would we let someone "move" here in July and hunt rams in August as a resident and then move back east the following spring? I've seen it happen and it's legal but needs to be changed now!!!

[elkhunter1234]

http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/110.../1100100028803

Here is a link to Tready #7
I find the small one paragraph part where they talk about hunting right the most interesting... When are we ever going to get a government with big enough balls to make these time to time changes that the Tready talks about happen???

Jim..

[Bergerboy]

I find it weird that when a group of people harvest elk within the confines of the law, people on this forum get upset at the people. When there is a coyote derby and a different group of people get mad, you're all up in arms. Live by the sword, die by the sword. If you don't believe the laws are correct, don't attack the law abiding, preach to the law makers.

[slickwilly]

10+ years at Suffield?

[SmokinJoe]

[QUOTE=Squeaker;2702528]The problem is there is people that have been waiting and applying faithfully for 10+ years of there life waiting for that tag ..Why should the be ripped off and cheated out of there chances for a decent once in a life time hunt ? Guess the government should give those 21,000 people that apply there ,their money back for there draw applications hey ? Hahaha[/

Did you know that you can buy a general elk tag every year?

[expmler]

Originally Posted by IR_mike

If you can prove economic need you can go to your local F and W office and apply.

How about they apply that to natives.

[SmokinJoe]

Originally Posted by elkhunter1234

http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/110.../1100100028803

Here is a link to Tready #7
I find the small one paragraph part where they talk about hunting right the most interesting... When are we ever going to get a government with big enough balls to make these time to time changes that the Tready talks about happen???

Jim..

Now go read the rest of the treaties.

[Kanonfodder]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

I find it weird that when a group of people harvest elk within the confines of the law, people on this forum get upset at the people. When there is a coyote derby and a different group of people get mad, you're all up in arms. Live by the sword, die by the sword. If you don't believe the laws are correct, don't attack the law abiding, preach to the law makers.

Yup

[Squeaker]

Originally Posted by slickwilly

10+ years at Suffield?

Surrounding wmu's to suffield base for an elk draw.

[Kanonfodder]

Originally Posted by Squeaker

Just give it a bit of time it will show up !

Will it show up in a reefer, pulled by a black dodge dually with pool noodles in the windows?
Asking for a friend

[expmler]

Originally Posted by bobalong

My question was not about a single species, but multi species for a family. Once again why is it ok for a non-native family to shoot a moose, maybe two, and an elk, maybe two or three deer and an antelope, but a Native should only be allowed half or less than that amount?

You have probably cherry picked the most vulnerable big game species of all, and although I don't know, I doubt if Antelope is high on the list if you are hunting for meat, but point taken.

A native family should be able to do the same, but under the same rules as a non native family.

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by Kanonfodder

Will it show up in a reefer, pulled by a black dodge dually with pool noodles in the windows?
Asking for a friend

HEY! We are supposed to leave them details alone!

[Cowtown guy]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

I find it weird that when a group of people harvest elk within the confines of the law, people on this forum get upset at the people. When there is a coyote derby and a different group of people get mad, you're all up in arms. Live by the sword, die by the sword. If you don't believe the laws are correct, don't attack the law abiding, preach to the law makers.

Because the anti hunters whining about the coyote derby are legally allowed to join and participate.

It isn't the same thing. It is a law. True. But it isn't equal for all Canadians.

It's 2015. Let Canadians be Canadians. It will do nothing but good for the entire country and the huge rift that is not getting better between these groups.

[H380]

[QUOTE=SmokinJoe;2702547]

Originally Posted by Squeaker

The problem is there is people that have been waiting and applying faithfully for 10+ years of there life waiting for that tag ..Why should the be ripped off and cheated out of there chances for a decent once in a life time hunt ? Guess the government should give those 21,000 people that apply there ,their money back for there draw applications hey ? Hahaha[/

Did you know that you can buy a general elk tag every year?

Smokin Joe,Help us out and tell us what zones we can buy these tags in that will give us a shot at a 400" bull ?