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  #181  
Old 12-06-2014, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bdub View Post
No doubt the number of tags and success rates would be far lower for sheep than muley and would have a bearing on number of tags issued per wmu.
At the end of the day it is just reducing hunting opportunity. Which I believe allowing our government to make any decision to cut hunting oppurtinity for the general public while allowing landowner tags and subsistence hunting is a negative. With all the dependents in this province and the way things are going we will be lucky if the next generation can hunt at all without a big wallet.
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  #182  
Old 12-06-2014, 08:34 PM
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Update. ...

ESRD F&W is unable to provide a written copy of the sheep regulation change proposal at this time.. in addition, there is unwillingness to release the concerns and reasoning for the regulation changes until the researchers complete their work on the data.

In other words, f&w needs more time to decipher the data and make it fit into a pre-determined problem...


F&w has stated that the proposal and concerns/reasoning will be made available during the March 4 sheep meeting.

It is unacceptable to expect interest group representatives to take time off work and travel to attend a meeting discussing sheep management changes without first being provided the information pertinent to the issue at hand.

It is time for the Environment minister to step in and make the beaurocrats release all the information and data within sixty days. End this beaurocratic manipulation for agenda based decisions.
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  #183  
Old 12-06-2014, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Acesneights View Post
At the end of the day it is just reducing hunting opportunity. Which I believe allowing our government to make any decision to cut hunting oppurtinity for the general public while allowing landowner tags and subsistence hunting is a negative. With all the dependents in this province and the way things are going we will be lucky if the next generation can hunt at all without a big wallet.
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Originally Posted by Lr1000 View Post
However if the gov starts to try and control sheep to more of a degree then it is now, by putting on full curl. Where is it going to end? The whitetail, mule deer and elk enthusiasts will want draws, to increase trophy quality. Where does it end, we will have no general tags in 10 years. We hunters are our own worst enemies. I too would like to see more mature Rams every year. However I have one and now I'm more in it for the experience every year and if I take one every ten years then so be it but I would like to be able to go every year.
I don't know what the best solution is or the right answer. I do know that the dynamics of the ram herds in much of the province is screwed up due to us killing almost all the rams in the age class we are now. It is not natural or healthy for the sheep population that we kill off almost all the rams before they reach a class 4 status. All hunters and especially sheep hunters should be taking a longer term veiw of the situation instead of a selfish short term veiw. Are we conservationists first and foremost or not?
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  #184  
Old 12-06-2014, 08:51 PM
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I don't know what the best solution is or the right answer. I do know that the dynamics of the ram herds in much of the province is screwed up due to us killing almost all the rams in the age class we are now. It is not natural or healthy for the sheep population that we kill off almost all the rams before they reach a class 4 status. All hunters and especially sheep hunters should be taking a longer term veiw of the situation instead of a selfish short term veiw. Are we conservationists first and foremost or not?
How many sheep in 2013 got killed in the age class 5-7 yeras old, you keep referencing?
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  #185  
Old 12-06-2014, 08:51 PM
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Ok so who do I send a cheque so I can have a voice in this issue? AFGA? WSF?

I am in favour of slot/age limits but total full curls? We've got 9 year olds that never made that due to brooming......

I'm in favor of asking for 8 rings, but even this won't work if they don't train and enforce it properly.
Hunting bighorns by age restrictions does not work. BC tried and eliminated the age regulation due to the number of illegal rams killed and after an extremely difficult time in the courts it was determined to be unenforceable. Even the best of the best sheep biologists could not agree on aging specific rams.

Without a doubt a donation would be best directed to the WSFAb. More important than a donotion will be your participation in writing letters to the minister and beaurocrats.
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  #186  
Old 12-06-2014, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by bdub View Post
I don't know what the best solution is or the right answer. I do know that the dynamics of the ram herds in much of the province is screwed up due to us killing almost all the rams in the age class we are now. It is not natural or healthy for the sheep population that we kill off almost all the rams before they reach a class 4 status. All hunters and especially sheep hunters should be taking a longer term veiw of the situation instead of a selfish short term veiw. Are we conservationists first and foremost or not?
You do realize that all those park rams that migrate to the breeding grounds ARE part of the population. .. ?
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  #187  
Old 12-06-2014, 08:59 PM
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How many sheep in 2013 got killed in the age class 5-7 yeras old, you keep referencing?
I don't know for 2013 but it must be quite a few if the average age of all rams harvested is 7.5 recently, as in the last 20 years or so.
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  #188  
Old 12-06-2014, 09:00 PM
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You do realize that all those park rams that migrate to the breeding grounds ARE part of the population. .. ?
Lol... i was going there next..and the b.c rams...

Plus when was last time they did aerial surveys?
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  #189  
Old 12-06-2014, 09:02 PM
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I don't know for 2013 but it must be quite a few if the average age of all rams harvested is 7.5 recently, as in the last 20 years or so.
So you believe that they accurately age sheep?

How do they age broomed rams? Do they estimate the missing portion? Or exclude it completely?
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  #190  
Old 12-06-2014, 09:03 PM
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You do realize that all those park rams that migrate to the breeding grounds ARE part of the population. .. ?
Should we not want to have a healthy ram herd dynamics both in and outside of the parks..? And yes I am not retarded in an answer to your question.
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  #191  
Old 12-06-2014, 09:10 PM
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So you believe that they accurately age sheep?

How do they age broomed rams? Do they estimate the missing portion? Or exclude it completely?
I realize there is discrepancies in the current system of aging rams but you can not tell me that the majority of the rams harvested in this province are better than class 3 rams. No way and the vast majority of the class 4s taken come mainly from parks, mines or bc.
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  #192  
Old 12-06-2014, 09:12 PM
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Should we not want to have a healthy ram herd dynamics both in and outside of the parks..? And yes I am not retarded in an answer to your question.
Lol... I never have considered that you were that kind of 'special'.

Just pointing out a missing fact refuting your claim of "skewed dynamics".

You know as well as I that many of those old park rams are only physically in the park for a couple months of the year....

any guesses as to which months... lol...
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  #193  
Old 12-06-2014, 09:16 PM
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Lol... i was going there next..and the b.c rams...

Plus when was last time they did aerial surveys?
Why? Do you think the situation has improved greatly from the last aerial survey?
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  #194  
Old 12-06-2014, 09:17 PM
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Lol... I never have considered that you were that kind of 'special'.

Just pointing out a missing fact refuting your claim of "skewed dynamics".

You know as well as I that many of those old park rams are only physically in the park for a couple months of the year....

any guesses as to which months... lol...
Why don't you fill me in.
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  #195  
Old 12-06-2014, 09:20 PM
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I realize there is discrepancies in the current system of aging rams but you can not tell me that the majority of the rams harvested in this province are better than class 3 rams. No way and the vast majority of the class 4s taken come mainly from parks, mines or bc.
I can't tell you! I have no idea, or data to support anything..thats the point im making. None of us do.

If i were to judge by my friends, and their rams lately... they are all over your class 3.

There are way to many discrepancies and flaws in the system, to qualify any of the data.150 rams a year on average get taken.. thats not alot, to fix the system and do a proper analysis, before any knee jerk reaction.
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  #196  
Old 12-06-2014, 09:23 PM
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Why? Do you think the situation has improved greatly from the last aerial survey?
Do you have data, that we can compare? Do you know when the last aerial survey was done? and where? And how big the sample size is?
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  #197  
Old 12-06-2014, 09:29 PM
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I can't tell you! I have no idea, or data to support anything..thats the point im making. None of us do.

If i were to judge by my friends, and their rams lately... they are all over your class 3.

There are way to many discrepancies and flaws in the system, to qualify any of the data.150 rams a year on average get taken.. thats not alot, to fix the system and do a proper analysis, before any knee jerk reaction.
So all of the harvest data on ram ages is totally irrevalent. It's all garbage. 150 rams a year over 20 plus years and none of it is valid whatsoever. Guarenteed some of those Sheep were aged incorrectly either high or low but statistically they are probably pretty accurate over that length of time and sample size.
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  #198  
Old 12-06-2014, 09:37 PM
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Do you have data, that we can compare? Do you know when the last aerial survey was done? and where? And how big the sample size is?
It's in the 2012 draft.
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  #199  
Old 12-06-2014, 09:55 PM
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Anything else from the potty/WB show. Been sick for the last couple weeks with a cold/flu so will probably be sitting around the house ready to carry on with this tomorrow. Have a good night.
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  #200  
Old 12-06-2014, 09:57 PM
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This idea is complete ludicrous. If esrd thinks hunters are affecting the genetics now. Take a guess at how many non sheep hunters would be putting in a sheep draw and going out and shooting a banana ram. Let's fast forward five years down the road...... All you would see in the mountains is banana Rams

I have no doubt that givin time and our govt they will wreck this amazing resource of ours, one way or another.
Not saying at all that putting sheep on draw is a sound option,but just curious,what makes you think that "non-sheephunters" would bother with a draw when they don't even have any interest in hunting sheep at present with over the counter tags?
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  #201  
Old 12-06-2014, 10:10 PM
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I don't know for 2013 but it must be quite a few if the average age of all rams harvested is 7.5 recently, as in the last 20 years or so.
How old are the rams you have harvested?
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  #202  
Old 12-06-2014, 10:12 PM
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Not saying at all that putting sheep on draw is a sound option,but just curious,what makes you think that "non-sheephunters" would bother with a draw when they don't even have any interest in hunting sheep at present with over the counter tags?
Because hunters/peta puts in for all draws since it only costs $3.50. Just look at the 437-438 draw. It's all plugged up with ppl that could really care less if they draw it and wouldn't even hunt it if they did. I know a number of ppl personally that I just shake my head at. There are also anti hunters that apply for tags to save one animal at a time. Draws are flawed!
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  #203  
Old 12-06-2014, 10:13 PM
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Anything else from the potty/WB show. Been sick for the last couple weeks with a cold/flu so will probably be sitting around the house ready to carry on with this tomorrow. Have a good night.
Look we all want a viable, healthy, sustainable sheep herd. We all want sheep hunting to be here for our great grand children. If evidence shows there is a problem, lets find a suitable viable solution. But, they dont have that kind of proof.... we can easily sit back an watch the grizz hunt dissappear, or new parks created. Or we can ask the right questions and demand the proof, and conduct the proper reasearch to formulate the proper decisions and outcomes. We all have to work together, and be transparent to achieve this.

If the potty and wb show, are the only guys that wont bend over and accept it ...then tomorrow you can laugh at us...or hopefully your humble enough to thank us one day, for saying NO... and thanx to everyone else that feels this way, and there are many , who are fighting this fight..

I hunt sheep, im not gonna become one
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  #204  
Old 12-06-2014, 10:19 PM
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So all of the harvest data on ram ages is totally irrevalent. It's all garbage. 150 rams a year over 20 plus years and none of it is valid whatsoever. Guarenteed some of those Sheep were aged incorrectly either high or low but statistically they are probably pretty accurate over that length of time and sample size.
Yes it is garbage and should not be used in any study or any excuse to change regulations when every ram that I know including mine was mis aged by srd. My ram they mis aged by two years, now over the course of 150 rams over 20 years don't you think those results would be skewed.
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  #205  
Old 12-06-2014, 10:20 PM
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Anything else from the potty/WB show. Been sick for the last couple weeks with a cold/flu so will probably be sitting around the house ready to carry on with this tomorrow. Have a good night.
I find this probably the best in the whole thread. You have not data proof of anything to back up anything to make a change such as SRD purposes. Your rams that you have killed are class 3 rams so what do you have to say? The biggest problem is SRD wants us to believe there is a huge problem. Before any changes can happen like this get rid of all outfitters and all NR tags. But first we all want to see scientific proof that there is a problem. All decisions should have to be based on science no hypothetical garbage like is done in Alberta.
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  #206  
Old 12-06-2014, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by pottymouth View Post
Look we all want a viable, healthy, sustainable sheep herd. We all want sheep hunting to be here for our great grand children. If evidence shows there is a problem, lets find a suitable viable solution. But, they dont have that kind of proof.... we can easily sit back an watch the grizz hunt dissappear, or new parks created. Or we can ask the right questions and demand the proof, and conduct the proper reasearch to formulate the proper decisions and outcomes. We all have to work together, and be transparent to achieve this.

If the potty and wb show, are the only guys that wont bend over and accept it ...then tomorrow you can laugh at us...or hopefully your humble enough to thank us one day, for saying NO... and thanx to everyone else that feels this way, and there are many , who are fighting this fight..

I hunt sheep, im not gonna become one
Ok this is my last post for the evening. I know you, WB and myself are arguing for what you think is right for sheep and sheep huntings future. I guess we just see things from a different angle. And I would never laugh or rub it in your faces and would definitly be humble enough to admit I was wrong if the facts point in that direction.
Thanks, I enjoy the discussion.

As for resident guide, I think I will just ignore pretty much anything you have to say on the topic.
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  #207  
Old 12-06-2014, 10:40 PM
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Ok this is my last post for the evening. I know you, WB and myself are arguing for what you think is right for sheep and sheep huntings future. I guess we just see things from a different angle. And I would never laugh or rub it in your faces and would definitly be humble enough to admit I was wrong if the facts point in that direction.
Thanks, I enjoy the discussion.

As for resident guide, I think I will just ignore pretty much anything you have to say on the topic.
Cheers...
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  #208  
Old 12-06-2014, 10:56 PM
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Ok this is my last post for the evening. I know you, WB and myself are arguing for what you think is right for sheep and sheep huntings future. I guess we just see things from a different angle. And I would never laugh or rub it in your faces and would definitly be humble enough to admit I was wrong if the facts point in that direction.
Thanks, I enjoy the discussion.

As for resident guide, I think I will just ignore pretty much anything you have to say on the topic.
Why is that? I want what is best for our herds just like you, WB, potty, and everybody else. I see lots of passionate people especially when it comes to sheep.
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  #209  
Old 12-06-2014, 11:27 PM
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Why is that? I want what is best for our herds just like you, WB, potty, and everybody else. I see lots of passionate people especially when it comes to sheep.
Not to answer for bdub,butttt......I'm guessing it might have something to do with your foolish outfitter/NR tags comment?
.....or at least that's my reason for ignoring you.
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  #210  
Old 12-06-2014, 11:46 PM
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I have only hunted sheep twice, and not very seriously at that either, so take my comments with a grain of salt...

I was lucky enough to see the inside of Smoky Coal mine while it was shut down for 2 years.
When we arrived before opening day a F&W officer told us that two groups of natives had just left the mine with 11 legal (3/4 curl) rams. They could have legally shot anything but didn't.
We saw some huge rams (broomed off and too short), and hundreds of others, but not a single legal ram in 7 days in the mine.
From then on I decided that I will never be in favour of a rule that discriminates against one group and not another. It laughs in the face of conservation.

When my kids get older I would love to hunt sheep seriously. I have been putting in the 438 draw for several years now and the way I see it, changing the rule to full-curl will pretty well make sure that never happens.
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