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  #91  
Old 12-04-2014, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by NBFK View Post
Would an option for the Broomed no lamb tips be an age regulation? Don't they do this for thin horns?
As I recall, many years ago, back in the early 70's any broomed ram was a legal ram. Please correct me if I am wrong.
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  #92  
Old 12-04-2014, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryry4 View Post
Guys, this is more than just about changes to sheep. It's a perfect opportunity to shut down sheep hunting in Alberta. Sure you'll be able to buy a tag and go out, but good luck finding a legal ram in lots of areas. No different that walking around with a cougar tag in your pocket while out deer hunting.

We've already lost our grizzly hunt based on bogus science and now we are on the verge of loosing sheep hunting opportunities.

Until the government can give us some sort of quantitative evidence that changes need to be made, I cannot and will not support it. We've given up too much in the province and the government couldn't care less about us as a group. We as a group need to realize that.

We need predator control and better habitat, not less hunting opportunity.
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  #93  
Old 12-04-2014, 08:14 PM
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  #94  
Old 12-04-2014, 08:55 PM
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A few questions for everyone:

1. In regards to the opinion that with the new regulations all full curl rams will be dead as soon as they reach full curl - while this is likely true, how is it any different/worse than every 4/5 ram being killed as soon as its legal? Will the average age of harvest not increase even if fewer rams are killed??

2. In regards to the opinion that so many loopy horned rams will never reach full curl - while I agree there will always be some rams that cannot/do not reach full curl, do you not think there are many that will get there given more time??

I am still fairly young (36), and have only been a sheep hunter for 10 years or so, yet I continually see a large percentage of rams harvested are lamb tipped and barely 4/5's. I do see a lack of truly mature sheep in hunting areas when compared to what I see in adjacent parks (Peter Lougheed, Spray Lakes). I do see (surprising to some) quite a few full curl rams in those parks.
While I don't think hunter opportunity should be limited, I do think there is a problem with the number of mature rams available to harvest. I would welcome changes to allow the rams to mature, and the trophy quality, even if only incrementally, to increase.

I am not opposed to it as many of you folks are. Each their own.
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  #95  
Old 12-04-2014, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by 7MM Mike View Post
A few questions for everyone:

1. In regards to the opinion that with the new regulations all full curl rams will be dead as soon as they reach full curl - while this is likely true, how is it any different/worse than every 4/5 ram being killed as soon as its legal? Will the average age of harvest not increase even if fewer rams are killed??

2. In regards to the opinion that so many loopy horned rams will never reach full curl - while I agree there will always be some rams that cannot/do not reach full curl, do you not think there are many that will get there given more time??

I am still fairly young (36), and have only been a sheep hunter for 10 years or so, yet I continually see a large percentage of rams harvested are lamb tipped and barely 4/5's. I do see a lack of truly mature sheep in hunting areas when compared to what I see in adjacent parks (Peter Lougheed, Spray Lakes). I do see (surprising to some) quite a few full curl rams in those parks.
While I don't think hunter opportunity should be limited, I do think there is a problem with the number of mature rams available to harvest. I would welcome changes to allow the rams to mature, and the trophy quality, even if only incrementally, to increase.

I am not opposed to it as many of you folks are. Each their own.
Flame away....
This is a very easy point of view for those of us with sheep. Which by the looks of it you have a few. But by giving ESTD this win, Where will they stop? So this doesn't work. Let's put on draw. Next thing you know we have no season and we will tell our kids of the days we use to be able to hunt sheep. I'm still young enough, I know if it goes to full curl I will still be able to shoot sheep. However one day I would like to take my now young kids out sheep hunting.
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  #96  
Old 12-04-2014, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by walking buffalo View Post
If your not familiar with Alberta sheep, perhaps you could be swayed into some.e education before making a decision.


Any idea on the percentage of rams die of natural mortality before the age of ten?
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Originally Posted by 7MM Mike View Post
A few questions for everyone:

1. In regards to the opinion that with the new regulations all full curl rams will be dead as soon as they reach full curl - while this is likely true, how is it any different/worse than every 4/5 ram being killed as soon as its legal? Will the average age of harvest not increase even if fewer rams are killed??

2. In regards to the opinion that so many loopy horned rams will never reach full curl - while I agree there will always be some rams that cannot/do not reach full curl, do you not think there are many that will get there given more time??

I am still fairly young (36), and have only been a sheep hunter for 10 years or so, yet I continually see a large percentage of rams harvested are lamb tipped and barely 4/5's. I do see a lack of truly mature sheep in hunting areas when compared to what I see in adjacent parks (Peter Lougheed, Spray Lakes). I do see (surprising to some) quite a few full curl rams in those parks.
While I don't think hunter opportunity should be limited, I do think there is a problem with the number of mature rams available to harvest. I would welcome changes to allow the rams to mature, and the trophy quality, even if only incrementally, to increase.

I am not opposed to it as many of you folks are. Each their own.
Flame away....
The way I see it is we are killing most of the rams at 5-7 years old, as soon as they become legal. Natural ram mortality is actually quite low up to the age of 8 years old. After that it increases quite a bit as they become more active in the rut. We are killing most of the rams prior to them becoming heavy participants in passing on their genetics. Heaviest natural mortality is in rams 10 plus years old. Something you don't much see in Alberta outside of the parks, mines etc. How is the status quo natural, good for the population if we are eliminating those Rams prior to them reaching breeding age in most of the range. We are never going to see good healthy numbers of all age classes of Rams if we keep killing them off at 5-7 years old. Won't happen.
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  #97  
Old 12-04-2014, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Lr1000 View Post
This is a very easy point of view for those of us with sheep. Which by the looks of it you have a few. But by giving ESTD this win, Where will they stop? So this doesn't work. Let's put on draw. Next thing you know we have no season and we will tell our kids of the days we use to be able to hunt sheep. I'm still young enough, I know if it goes to full curl I will still be able to shoot sheep. However one day I would like to take my now young kids out sheep hunting.
I'm afraid we are living in a province growing by leaps and bounds, habitat is degrading, access is pretty easy everywhere, gear is improving, hunters ability is improving with the gear and free flow of knowledge and everyone wants to kill a ram. I can certainly see further restrictions, sheep on draw, shorter season etc coming down the pipe sooner or later.
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  #98  
Old 12-04-2014, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by bdub View Post
The way I see it is we are killing most of the rams at 5-7 years old, as soon as they become legal. Natural ram mortality is actually quite low up to the age of 8 years old. After that it increases quite a bit as they become more active in the rut. We are killing most of the rams prior to them becoming heavy participants in passing on their genetics. Heaviest natural mortality is in rams 10 plus years old. Something you don't much see in Alberta outside of the parks, mines etc. How is the status quo natural, good for the population if we are eliminating those Rams prior to them reaching breeding age in most of the range. We are never going to see good healthy numbers of all age classes of Rams if we keep killing them off at 5-7 years old. Won't happen.
I'm not sure I totally get what your saying. I'm no scientist however I see a lot of lambs and ewes all over the place. These may be getting bread by young Rams or maybe by old Rams either way I don't see how their age make a difference how big the offspring will be. I don't believe the 8-12 year old Rams have super sperm over the 5-7 year old rams. Yes it would be nice to see more old Rams every trip, but at what point is ESRD going to stop taking and start giving.
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  #99  
Old 12-04-2014, 10:18 PM
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Many believe this is all a conspiracy to eventually end or severely curtail sheep hunting. I think its a change that the province thinks will meet the highest priority goals of all stakeholders. ie: still allow the same opportunity for residents to hunt sheep with a general tag, while increasing the number of mature rams in the breeding population. Will the number of harvested rams decrease? Likely. Will the trophy quality increase? Likely.

What no-one wants to admit is that the wildlife resources in this province are finite, while hunting pressure continues to increase. Regulations are going to have to change to suit the increased population and pressure. Maybe if we shut down resource development we can go back to 1960's regs in 10 years? (HA!)

I have a young boy here at home too - and I cant wait to take him sheep hunting. Hopefully for a Dandy of a Trophy Sheep someday.

And If it goes on draw I'm heading west....
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  #100  
Old 12-04-2014, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Lr1000 View Post
This is a very easy point of view for those of us with sheep. Which by the looks of it you have a few. But by giving ESTD this win, Where will they stop? So this doesn't work. Let's put on draw. Next thing you know we have no season and we will tell our kids of the days we use to be able to hunt sheep. I'm still young enough, I know if it goes to full curl I will still be able to shoot sheep. However one day I would like to take my now young kids out sheep hunting.
Agreed! Look at wmu 400. First zone to go to full curl, first zone most likely to lose 2 weeks of the season....and the way we are going, either first zone to go full draw or worse, close completely!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdub View Post
The way I see it is we are killing most of the rams at 5-7 years old, as soon as they become legal. Natural ram mortality is actually quite low up to the age of 8 years old. After that it increases quite a bit as they become more active in the rut. We are killing most of the rams prior to them becoming heavy participants in passing on their genetics. Heaviest natural mortality is in rams 10 plus years old. Something you don't much see in Alberta outside of the parks, mines etc. How is the status quo natural, good for the population if we are eliminating those Rams prior to them reaching breeding age in most of the range. We are never going to see good healthy numbers of all age classes of Rams if we keep killing them off at 5-7 years old. Won't happen.
I can appreciate your opinion. But... we actually have no data that support this. Nor do we have an actual aging system, that is more creditable. One ram can have a variance of up to 3 years in different hands ! Also when they age rams they don't account for year broomed off!

We have to realize, that bigger horns doesn't necessarily mean better genetics in the animal world. Not every 200 inch whitetail, is the dominate buck, nor is every 200 inch ram..

Until we are given more info, and or allowed time to conduct our own independent (through organizations and foundations) studies, let not believe what they say, just because they say it!
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  #101  
Old 12-04-2014, 10:43 PM
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I'm not sure I totally get what your saying. I'm no scientist however I see a lot of lambs and ewes all over the place. These may be getting bread by young Rams or maybe by old Rams either way I don't see how their age make a difference how big the offspring will be. I don't believe the 8-12 year old Rams have super sperm over the 5-7 year old rams. Yes it would be nice to see more old Rams every trip, but at what point is ESRD going to stop taking and start giving.
It is not that the genes are different in the age class but that the breeding status is determined by horn mass. The bigger the head gear, the more the ram passes on his genetics. On top of this the sooner a ram becomes a heavy participant in the rut, the shorter his life expectancy on average. The mortality of that age class go way up. So not only are we killing the 5-7 year old in hunting season we are indirectly shortening the lifespan of the sub legal Rams as they become the main breeding males due to a lack of older Rams. There are other undesirable effects of young Rams doing most of the breeding. The large numbers in that age class will relentlessly pursue those females and wear them down trying to breed them. That's what I believe happens anyway. Hope I explained my thinking on that somewhat clearly.
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  #102  
Old 12-04-2014, 10:50 PM
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Agreed! Look at wmu 400. First zone to go to full curl, first zone most likely to lose 2 weeks of the season....and the way we are going, either first zone to go full draw or worse, close completely!



I can appreciate your opinion. But... we actually have no data that support this. Nor do we have an actual aging system, that is more creditable. One ram can have a variance of up to 3 years in different hands ! Also when they age rams they don't account for year broomed off!

We have to realize, that bigger horns doesn't necessarily mean better genetics in the animal world. Not every 200 inch whitetail, is the dominate buck, nor is every 200 inch ram..

Until we are given more info, and or allowed time to conduct our own independent (through organizations and foundations) studies, let not believe what they say, just because they say it!
Which part of what I stated has no supporting data? There is data to support natural mortality of bighorn sheep. Valerious Geist did some excellent research on the subject.
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  #103  
Old 12-04-2014, 11:46 PM
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Agreed! Look at wmu 400. First zone to go to full curl, first zone most likely to lose 2 weeks of the season....and the way we are going, either first zone to go full draw or worse, close completely!!
You should talk to the bio in 400. My understanding was originally he wanted 400 on draw. Not to limit oppurtunity, but rather he recognized that during the transition this zone was going to see a lot of hunters. This season adjustment has a lot more to do with protection then limiting oppurtunity.
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  #104  
Old 12-05-2014, 12:11 AM
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You should talk to the bio in 400. My understanding was originally he wanted 400 on draw. Not to limit oppurtunity, but rather he recognized that during the transition this zone was going to see a lot of hunters. This season adjustment has a lot more to do with protection then limiting oppurtunity.
So in other words the full curl requirement is not sufficient to satisfy the increased restrictions this regulation proposal is promoting to achieve?

Hmmmmm....


As mentioned, the biologists proposing the full curl regulation are attempting to severely limit the hunting of mature male ungulates... this is only the beginning of their desired path if we are willing to follow along blinded by the thoughts of personally killing a big old ram at any cost to hunting in general. .
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  #105  
Old 12-05-2014, 12:45 AM
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Do you believe his goal is to do that.

Could it be possible that he honestly believes this is a better system and that in the interim he has a concern that was addressed with shortening the season?
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  #106  
Old 12-05-2014, 01:52 AM
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Do you believe his goal is to do that.

Could it be possible that he honestly believes this is a better system and that in the interim he has a concern that was addressed with shortening the season?
The southern bio? No.

I am speaking of the bio's that are pushing the full curl proposal.


7 mm mike,

A little research into the proposals from 2012 and the researchers/studies behind it will confirm what I am saying... we have been dealing with this group for many years now....
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  #107  
Old 12-05-2014, 06:43 AM
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A full curl regulation is the least desirable of all options, for many obvious reasons. For zones that do need a change, there are many more preferable ideas that will help, but of course in SRD's mind would be harder to implement than just a blanket "full curl" rule

-habitat improvement is pretty obvious, need prescribed burns in a pretty big way.
-predator control. Cougar harvest needs to be increased in the west country. Trouble with the CMA borders is they use the FTR as the boundry. How many cats are actually being hunted in sheep country. Don't even have to bring up how many sheep are being killed by cats. Wolves will be taking their fair share also off of the lower wintering ranges also.
-decrease outfitter tags in some of these zones. 420 is one of the zones where there is a known problem with sheep numbers, why is there 8 nonresident tags there?
-substinence hunting......need I say more? Yeah I do actually. Sheep need to be put on a "no go" list. Male or female, doesn't matter. A change would not only decrease the amount of trophy sheep being harvested during times of year when they are most vulnerable, it would also increase their available range/habitat once again. Limestone mountain is a perfect example of that.
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  #108  
Old 12-05-2014, 06:46 AM
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Look at our neighbors to the west. Bighorns are full curl, nothing like being able to kill a 6 year old full curl and let the big old broomed 10 year old walk away.
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  #109  
Old 12-05-2014, 07:32 AM
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Look at our neighbors to the west. Bighorns are full curl, nothing like being able to kill a 6 year old full curl and let the big old broomed 10 year old walk away.
Exactly.

Guys, I've penned a letter to Kyle Fawcett, the Minister of Environmen​t and Sustainabl​e Resource Developmen​t, (cc'd my MLA and the premier) outlining my thoughts on why I believe these proposals (Full Curl and shortening the season in 302 & 400) should not be pursued, and have also asked him to provide me with the scientific data (which I believe does not exist) that was used to formulate these proposals. I encourage you, if you feel the same way I do about these proposals, to do the same. Bitching on AO about it is fine, but I doubt that Mr. Fawcett will read this thread. If you send a letter directly to him, he has to read it. If anyone would like a copy of my letter, which you can feel free to resend with your own signature, PM me and I will send you the contents.
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  #110  
Old 12-05-2014, 07:37 AM
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The problem I have with this, the Government has made most of the Historical Ram mountains and Fall ranges into parks. The parks are full of big, trophy rams. Why not open some draws inside the parks like Peter Lougheed, Spray, etc to ensure the Rams continually move around and travel rather than hide away on a mountain and never move. You can't continually make the sheep hunting area smaller and expect the pressure of more hunters not to become more intense.
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  #111  
Old 12-05-2014, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Ryry4 View Post
Look at our neighbors to the west. Bighorns are full curl, nothing like being able to kill a 6 year old full curl and let the big old broomed 10 year old walk away.
agreed, the old broomed rams will walk and the 6-7 year old with lamb tips will drop. The ability to take shorter heavily broomed rams needs to exhist.
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  #112  
Old 12-05-2014, 07:41 AM
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The problem I have with this, the Government has made most of the Historical Ram mountains and Fall ranges into parks. The parks are full of big, trophy rams. Why not open some draws inside the parks like Peter Lougheed, Spray, etc to ensure the Rams continually move around and travel rather than hide away on a mountain and never move. You can't continually make the sheep hunting area smaller and expect the pressure of more hunters not to become more intense.
agreed
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  #113  
Old 12-05-2014, 08:03 AM
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WB,
I spent a fair amount of personal effort the last time changes were proposed, fighting for the regs to stay the same as many folks did. I conversed with Rob Corrigan via email about the situation and other options. The province claims to want to keep this as simple as possible for enforcement reasons.
that is the long and short of why they would likely never entertain an age based wait time system or something of that nature, which would be my first choice of any management change.

I don't think there is a serious issue with our sheep in the zones where the changes are proposed. But I am not opposed to some change that would benefit bighorn sheep populations in general and/or increase the number of mature rams / trophy quality.

I don't think WMU 400 is a good example of the outcome of full curl regs as the population was already at a critically low level (ewes and lambs included, and recruitment rates) due to factors others have already listed.

I believe that in a healthier population the results will be different. Call me blind or naive. Just an opinion.
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  #114  
Old 12-05-2014, 08:53 AM
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Im curious....has the AFGA taken a stand on the issue.
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  #115  
Old 12-05-2014, 08:59 AM
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Who has gone above and beyond complaining on the AO forum?
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  #116  
Old 12-05-2014, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by 7MM Mike View Post
I don't think WMU 400 is a good example of the outcome of full curl regs as the population was already at a critically low level (ewes and lambs included, and recruitment rates) due to factors others have already listed.

I believe that in a healthier population the results will be different. Call me blind or naive. Just an opinion.
Can you elaborate on this. I've heard it time and again. Why is the success of 400 dismissed?
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  #117  
Old 12-05-2014, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper View Post
Who has gone above and beyond complaining on the AO forum?
I posted this about an hour ago.

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Originally Posted by albertadave View Post
Exactly.

Guys, I've penned a letter to Kyle Fawcett, the Minister of Environmen​t and Sustainabl​e Resource Developmen​t, (cc'd my MLA and the premier) outlining my thoughts on why I believe these proposals (Full Curl and shortening the season in 302 & 400) should not be pursued, and have also asked him to provide me with the scientific data (which I believe does not exist) that was used to formulate these proposals. I encourage you, if you feel the same way I do about these proposals, to do the same. Bitching on AO about it is fine, but I doubt that Mr. Fawcett will read this thread. If you send a letter directly to him, he has to read it. If anyone would like a copy of my letter, which you can feel free to resend with your own signature, PM me and I will send you the contents.
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  #118  
Old 12-05-2014, 09:11 AM
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I posted this about an hour ago.


Thanks Dave everyone should be doing the same.
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  #119  
Old 12-05-2014, 09:13 AM
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All the talk about no data from rams harvested (or alive for that matter) every ram taken in Alberta has to be plugged, is there not information taken down about the age class and where the ram was taken. That has to hold some value somewhere I would think.
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  #120  
Old 12-05-2014, 10:13 AM
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All the talk about no data from rams harvested (or alive for that matter) every ram taken in Alberta has to be plugged, is there not information taken down about the age class and where the ram was taken. That has to hold some value somewhere I would think.
One of the issues is ageing sheep. You can give a sheep to three different people and get three different answers on age. It was a topic of discussion at the seminars last year at WSF in Red Deer. The age collection may be very inaccurate for that reason. They were working on a solution to that but I'm not sure what's come from it.
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