Your Idea's, to face lift our current Draw System

[Deer Hunter]

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$Department/deptdocs.nsf/all/csi12823/$FILE/Volume-III-Value-of-Nature.pdf

From the wildlife act: Allocation renewal costs

All Outfitter Allocation renewal costs province wide:

[sheepguide]

Great numbers but what does it have to do with changes to our draw system and the OP?

Monies isn't the issues! It's wait times and uncontrolled applications.

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Your dollars spent to that outfitter were partially used for insurance, groceries, fuel, allocation renewals, vehicles, any other supplies and many other things in the host province or state so to say no monies went locally is ludacris!! It's still spent back into the province.

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Great numbers but what does it have to do with changes to our draw system and the OP?

Monies isn't the issues! It's wait times and uncontrolled applications.

You started talking about the economic impact of non resident dollars and I thought it would be nice to have some real numbers. That's all.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

You started talking about the economic impact of non resident dollars and I thought it would be nice to have some real numbers. That's all.

Nope actually didnt start anything just commented on another's post about money. And like yours, his touched on Monies and are not the issues here. That is another whole thread topic!

The only dollar issues here is if higher draw and/or tag costs would improve draw statistics!

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Nope actually didnt start anything just commented on another's post about money. And like yours, his touched on Monies and are not the issues here. That is another whole thread topic!

The only dollar issues here is if higher draw and/or tag costs would improve draw statistics!

Only way to improve draw stats is to add tags (better game management), remove participants (crackdown on frauds, and change resident definition rules), or reallocate tags from one user group to another (revamp hunter host and outfitter allocations).

LC

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Only way to improve draw stats is to add tags (better game management), remove participants (crackdown on frauds, and change resident definition rules), or reallocate tags from one user group to another (revamp hunter host and outfitter allocations).

LC

Or raise costs and eliminate mass draw applications.

[bpk1982]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Or raise costs and eliminate mass draw applications.

This is not the answer to the problem...by pricing people out...I don't agree with all this BS about people applying because they can...they apply because its another hunting opportunity that's available to everyone and not just for a select few...

[aulrich]

Yup raising the cost of entering hunting, since everything will be draw soon enough has win written all over it .. for PETA

[sheepguide]

You don't think people just put in because its cheap?

Look at the piles of guys that flood these forums each fall because they have absolutely no clue about draws they put in for. The areas they applied, the animals they applied for and where to even start to have a successful hunt. They threw a whole mitt full of draws in and have gotten drawn for something they didn't really care to hunt or they would have at least researched it a little. How many of these tags go unused each year?

There are hundreds of guys that put in for every draw they can just for the simple fact that its only $3/draw so it is no big deal if they dont know or dont use the tag. If it cost people a bit they would apply a bit more effort into their draw selection and would be a bit more hesitant to just flood the system with draws they could care less about. If it doesnt work out they dont care. if they dont go and dont get a tag they are out under $3 and if they buy the tag and its not used or what ever they are out $40 total. So whats to deter this type of stuff? Shutting out NR hunters?????

Do you think over 9000 people would apply for 438 sheep if the price wasnt $3? Only 2200 people by a sheep tag each year but 9000+ put in for the draw? Its because its cheap oppertunity at a coveted tag and and they can put in everyone they know to up a groups odds of getting a tag. Where else in the world can you apply for a coveted rut draw tag for $3? Its retarded!!!!

Over loaded draws are the issue and eliminating the NR hunters is only a small fix that is the main push as resident hunters want more more more but dont you dare restrict or affect them or their draws.

The only way there will be any worthy improvment residents must own up that they are some if not most of the issue. And as long as they argue to changes towards them nothing will ever be accomplished.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

You don't think people just put in because its cheap?

Look at the piles of guys that flood these forums each fall because they have absolutely no clue about draws they put in for. The areas they applied, the animals they applied for and where to even start to have a successful hunt. They threw a whole mitt full of draws in and have gotten drawn for something they didn't really care to hunt or they would have at least researched it a little. How many of these tags go unused each year?

Everyone has to start somewhere, you don't start hunting knowing eveything.....and if you think you know everything, well you don't...

There are hundreds of guys that put in for every draw they can just for the simple fact that its only $3/draw so it is no big deal if they dont know or dont use the tag. If it cost people a bit they would apply a bit more effort into their draw selection and would be a bit more hesitant to just flood the system with draws they could care less about. If it doesnt work out they dont care. if they dont go and dont get a tag they are out under $3 and if they buy the tag and its not used or what ever they are out $40 total. So whats to deter this type of stuff? Shutting out NR hunters?????

This promotes an elistist attitude.....shutting out new folks via costs promotes a rich mans sport, that being said I do agree the current $3/draw is very cheap....heck raise fishing license by $3-4 dollars and watch the whining commence on here.

Do you think over 9000 people would apply for 438 sheep if the price wasnt $3? Only 2200 people by a sheep tag each year but 9000+ put in for the draw? Its because its cheap oppertunity at a coveted tag and and they can put in everyone they know to up a groups odds of getting a tag. Where else in the world can you apply for a coveted rut draw tag for $3? Its retarded!!!!

Some people are prepared to buy the tag if they get the draw...its what I do. Some guys put in for moose every year to get the draw but don't buy a moose general tag.....so what?

Over loaded draws are the issue and eliminating the NR hunters is only a small fix that is the main push as resident hunters want more more more but dont you dare restrict or affect them or their draws.

Residents have taken the largest hit when it comes to draw availability the past few years....time for other user groups to follow suit.

The only way there will be any worthy improvment residents must own up that they are some if not most of the issue. And as long as they argue to changes towards them nothing will ever be accomplished.

IMHO you can't fix it all at once. For starters I think that when tags are reduced they should be reduced accross the board....for example if we have a crap winter and deer draws are cut 50% then EVERY user group should have an equal reduction.

I also feel that the definition of resident and having criteria to maintain resident status would be a huge step in the reduction of people claiming "false resident" status.

I also feel that you should HAVE to purchase your wildlife certificate before being allowed to enter any draws....this would keep many out who really have no intention of hunting....(tinfoil hat time )

I know a guy who is more dedicated to hunting sheep than anyone I know....he hunts each year, lives in the bush for months, etc....he is 3 days older than dirt and tougher than nails....hardly has two nickels to rub together...if costs go up drastically then he is priced out of the game. He is as dedicated to hunting as anyone I know.

I put in for bison, goat, antelope (archery, nontrophy, and trophy) and turkey each year.....they are becoming once in a lifetime draws.....so whether I 999 or pick a zone I am just building priority every year it seems. Should hunters be forced out of applying for these? why do we even have seasons for these then? If each of these was $50 to apply for.....I personally would still put in but many who have priorities built would not. So what you propose forces out people who are looking for that once in a lifetime draw that they can enjoy in their own back yard....

......no easy answers.

LC

[sheepguide]

Yep everyone needs to start somewhere. And nope i am far from knowing everything, but anytime ive put in for a new tag or new area I do my homework to be assured I know what im getting into. I put in for animals and areas that I want to hunt and want to put in effort to be succesful. Not just apply and hope a bunch of guys on a forum can bail me out because I couldnt be bothered to care enough about the tag to put any effort into it!!!

And of coarse we need to control the guys that apply through false pretenses but as with higher costs reducing numbers you are purely speculating on how big of a number you will reduce things by.

Should all groups be reduced when residents are? Of coarse they should. I wont get into the outfitter debate here as thats been beat to death. As for hunter host draw tags they are given a percentage and that is controlled as we are. Our numbers go down there totals go down. I can hunt other provinces so unless we stop Albertans from hunting else where these opportunities for NR should be there. A set percentage system works and maybe the percentage needs to be tweaked a bit but its something I think is fair.

I know the costs to hunt sheep even on the barest of scales and raising a tag or draw entry by $50 - $100 isnt going to stop dedicated guys or guys that really want from hunting them. Fuel prices dont, gear prices dont and these have increased substantially so why would some extra dollars in a tag. But for those guys that are on the fence whether they actually even want to hunt one an extra $50 - $100may just sway them to realise they dont really want to.

[aulrich]

Yup, they do and I like it that way, participation, price it so folks and especially young folks can't participate and the last generation of hunters will have faster access to tags.

Focus on habitat more animals and there will be more tags.

No shows and bad hunters are reflected in success rate and that success rate is what drives the tag numbers.

If you really want to get rid of extra entries, get rid of 999 and group entries, to prevent grouping with a low priority person (old school 999).

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Yep everyone needs to start somewhere. And nope i am far from knowing everything, but anytime ive put in for a new tag or new area I do my homework to be assured I know what im getting into. I put in for animals and areas that I want to hunt and want to put in effort to be succesful. Not just apply and hope a bunch of guys on a forum can bail me out because I couldnt be bothered to care enough about the tag to put any effort into it!!!

I agree people should research and help themselves first before asking for help....my other comments were general "know it all" not directed at you specifically

And of coarse we need to control the guys that apply through false pretenses but as with higher costs reducing numbers you are purely speculating on how big of a number you will reduce things by.

Should all groups be reduced when residents are? Of coarse they should. I wont get into the outfitter debate here as thats been beat to death. As for hunter host draw tags they are given a percentage and that is controlled as we are. Our numbers go down there totals go down. I can hunt other provinces so unless we stop Albertans from hunting else where these opportunities for NR should be there. A set percentage system works and maybe the percentage needs to be tweaked a bit but its something I think is fair.

I agree there is some fine tuning needed. Before WB posted about how HH system was calculated I didn't know there was a cap....there is no cap on putting into the draws just a cap on how they are handed out

I know the costs to hunt sheep even on the barest of scales and raising a tag or draw entry by $50 - $100 isnt going to stop dedicated guys or guys that really want from hunting them. Fuel prices dont, gear prices dont and these have increased substantially so why would some extra dollars in a tag. But for those guys that are on the fence whether they actually even want to hunt one an extra $50 - $100may just sway them to realise they dont really want to.

If there are increases I awould agree to keep them within reach, but have them at a level where the willy nilly folks have to at least think about it.

LC

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by aulrich

If you really want to get rid of extra entries, get rid of 999 and group entries, to prevent grouping with a low priority person (old school 999).

The lowest priority of the group.....applies to the entire group.

So if a high priority groups with a lower one, the lower priority is what is used.

LC

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by aulrich

Yup, they do and I like it that way, participation, price it so folks and especially young folks can't participate and the last generation of hunters will have faster access to tags.

Focus on habitat more animals and there will be more tags.

No shows and bad hunters are reflected in success rate and that success rate is what drives the tag numbers.

If you really want to get rid of extra entries, get rid of 999 and group entries, to prevent grouping with a low priority person (old school 999).

Young kids get youth prices to promote participation already. This should be for all animals including draw tags until they are say 16 or so.

Why not have youth draws? Id far rather see youth hunters getting the tags than anyone else. Give 50% of draw tags to the youth!!
This would be tough simply due For one because a ton of kids that dont hunt would be applied for their parents to get tags.

Habitat and predators are being pushed hard and has been up front and center in many threads for years as being the main cause of all issues but if we sit and wait for that to be solved without governing the human aspect our hunting will be in far worse shape than it is now.

[aulrich]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

The lowest priority of the group.....applies to the entire group.

So if a high priority groups with a lower one, the lower priority is what is used.

LC

Yes, that is how folks incremented there priorities without risking a draw before 999, if you get rid of 999 you would have to close that loop hole too.

Group draws were needed before the advent of a partner licence, not as needed now.

[drake]

does anyone have any stats on draws awarded vs draws purchased?......

[ishootbambi]

wow...look at this sucker take off!

Originally Posted by normanrd

The math still says that if I only take 1 tag in 30 years instead of 5 or 6, that I am not taking hunting opportunities away from others in the same draw pool. Sorry, the math does not add up and it really is quite simple!

Norm

count again then. if you don't wish to hunt 5 or 6 times...you don't apply for the tag. another suggestion was if drawn and not purchased the priority is gone, and with that few would apply for a tag they didn't want. that 999 when used bumps someone that has wanted it every year. im not sure how you can miss that?

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

So you are saying to have no priority system at all?


LC

not what im saying at all....the priority system is what makes alberta stand above the crown in the world of draws.

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Last year for example...for you. Life got in the way of hunting, what if you were forced to draw your 6 tags and they all got wasted...and no one else could use them?

LC

I see you already got this with the post following it, but I used myself as the best example of what this is all about. If I could not 999 last year, I would not have applied, period. why would I blow my priorities knowing I wanted to use them eventually? if I couldn't have built them through 999, I would not be in a position this year to pull at least three of them. 999 is allowing me to hunt about 10 weeks on draw tags this year. I am likely the best example of how a guy using 999 to his advantage is taking tags away from others. I know you didn't say it but others have.... think about what im saying here and explain to me how that is selfish....im looking to myself as a guy that could easily give up something to benefit others.

Originally Posted by Bownsaw30

Being someone who moved from another province to here i must say waiting 1 year before being able to apply for a draw is bogus,

you do realize that alberta is about the only place anywhere that you can do this right? no other place in Canada can you show up today and hunt as a resident tomorrow. you say you at least did move here.....many other have not and are abusing the free and easy ride. I do know of one guy however that got a slap on the wrist for holding resident licenses in more than one jurisdiction....but that seems to be a very rare thing.

Originally Posted by recce43

3. Price increase for draw application
I guess you want hunting for the rich only ..

the most common number for a draw app coming up seems to be around 20-25 bucks. think about that for a second. 20 bucks doesn't even get a lot of people out of the city in a 4x4 truck just in fuel costs. 20 bucks isn't going to deter any legit hunters out there....but what it could deter is a lot of girlfriends, nieces, dogs etc when that 20 turns into a hundred or more for all the cheaters and abusers.

Originally Posted by recce43

some people have limited resources for draw and tags to pay for hunting .
so its ok to hurt those type of people?

again, it will not hurt a damn thing. the premium tags are really the only ones that need adjustment....antelope, sheep, goat, bison, and turkey. for the most part, deer and elk draws don't have the big issues...yet. think about the travel involved for any of those premium tags.....fuel alone besides gear and hotels etc are into the hundreds on any of them for pretty well everyone. don't bother saying the guy living at cadomin has no costs on the 438 sheep, because he sure does on the others.

Originally Posted by super7mag

How high would the applications have to be to deter those applying? You know sometimes money isn't the only answer.

20 bucks would be a good start......and often money IS the best answer.

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Small model, i'm sure I missed something there, maybe?



Some people have such bad luck, I wouldn't want to be in a system that doesn't guarantee me a tag at some point..... Look at 209x50 ( I believe) he's pulled 2 Cadomin ram tags here, and the endless flack he hears from people, including you , about the strings he pulled to get that. (which was sheer luck)

your model is definitely too small to show the problem with 999. you don't need to create a small model to prove anything when a real world model is available to look at. its a good system, but need some tweaking.

as for 209s sheep tags....maybe read that again. im not mad at him for what happened....that was entirely a fark up in the system. there was no luck involved at all. the system was flawed in that the first to apply were "drawn". fact is it wasn't a draw at all, but a first come first served tag. the first year he took a chance that's how it worked....second time he knew it worked that way and took advantage of it again. yeah ive heard the conspiracy that he was tipped off....maybe, maybe not. ill give him the benefit of the doubt the first time that he gambled and it paid off, and the second time he knew how it worked. good for him. i don't hate him for what happened, I hate the system for allowing it. the draw never was a draw which is complete bullsnot, and further, it should have been a once in a lifetime event. its like the outfitter situation.....I don't hate the outfitters, I hate the system they operate in.

Originally Posted by hal53

It was posted earlier in the thread that almost half of the applicants in draws were 999, one I think said of 18,000 applicants 10k wee 999 ( I believe).


Bang!, your P5 pretty much guaranteed draw just went to a 6 or a 7... the guys that were at P4?...please move to the back of the bus.....

that's the math that matters right there hal. if you cant see how 999 is affecting things, I don't know how else to explain it.

Originally Posted by hal53

the point is, a lot of those guys are applying for multiple draws due to the fact that when they get drawn for the animal (s), they DO want to hunt, they know they are back to low priority, so they then cash in their priority for animals...just because....
The general consensus here is the system needs fixing, just don't mess with the way "I " do my draws.....

same old story....everyone wants change, but only if they can benefit from it.

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Removing the 999 choice wont reduce wait times, it will just mean guys will get drawn and waste the tag by not showing up for the hunt.

already explained...knowing you lose your priority, guys wont burn it if they cant hunt it. there will be a few slow learners, and like other draws, success rates will be factored into tag numbers.

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

If you think fraudulent draws were an issue before wait till you tell some people that they can only put in for 3 things....every wife, kid, dog, grandma and grandpa is going to be taking the hunting course and putting in for draws ....

I know in our Family we all stagger moose draws via 999 so that we can plan ahead on splitting a moose between the 4 of us every year....the area we go to takes about 4 years to get a tag....we have a rotation set up so we have 1 moose to split between the 4 families every year.

I wouldn't want to have 4 moose draws in a single year.

LC

grandma already is getting used....

you want moose tags staggered, you will stagger when you apply for them. nothing would change in that example....assuming P3-4 in that zone. if its less, you just apply less often.

[ishootbambi]

and im gonna put this in its own post as I thought of one other idea while typing. group applications could be whacked down too. by limiting groups to 2 instead of 4, its extra cost and hassle to put in grandma, the kid down the street and the dog.....that would no doubt eliminate some shenanigans too.

[pottymouth]

Bambi the model isn't to small. Expand it to as large as you need. Check the mathamatics on it holds true regardless of the scale.

When determining your wait time, you must include everyone before you and that includes 999's . You must also include the pool that you apply with, which people forget to. You have to come up with a min and a max number. Max never changes, and the min can move up significantly. But you can't calculate any of this until after your first year has been applied for, not before. Before would be an unknown approximation.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Bambi the model isn't to small. Expand it to as large as you need. Check the mathamatics on it holds true regardless of the scale.

When determining your wait time, you must include everyone before you and that includes 999's . You must also include the pool that you apply with, which people forget to. You have to come up with a min and a max number. Max never changes, and the min can move up significantly. But you can't calculate any of this until after your first year has been applied for, not before. Before would be an unknown approximation.

How do you include 999's when figuring out your draw wait times? Where does it state what priority levels the 999 guys are at by individual zone? You numbers could be so varied and flawed it could never be accurate unless it showed it by a zone by zone break down not just a total of 999 applicants and just how many at each priority.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

How do you include 999's when figuring out your draw wait times? Where does it state what priority levels the 999 guys are at by individual zone? You numbers could be so varied and flawed it could never be accurate unless it showed it by a zone by zone break down not just a total of 999 applicants and just how many at each priority.

999 draw priorities are given. Just check the draw stats for the previous year. Bottom of the page, last page.

For instance the highest priority drawn for muley last year was a 13 in 305. The highest priority in draw code 13 (muley antlered) was a 999 with a 15 priority.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

999 draw priorities are given. Just check the draw stats for the previous year. Bottom of the page, last page.

For instance the highest priority drawn for muley last year was a 13 in 305. The highest priority in draw code 13 (muley antlered) was a 999 with a 15 priority.

How many guys with priority high enough to draw in 305 are in the 999 pool that put in for zone 305???

It says priority levels Per species but not a zone by zone break down. It has each priority level and the total number of applicants but does not show what level guys are at per zone? How to I know how many top priority guys are in the zone I apply? Without the 999 statistics per zone instead of per species it's impossible to figure wait times.

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

It says priority levels Per species but not a zone by zone break down. It has each priority level and the total number of applicants but does not show what level guys are at per zone? How to I know how many top priority guys are in the zone I apply? Without the 999 statistics per zone instead of per species it's impossible to figure wait times.

You dont understand the 999 situation very well. Generally, 999 has no WMU attached and you will never know where guys intend to deploy their 999 priority until they do. Most 999 applicants have no idea where they will apply until they decide to come out of the 999 code and into a WMU.

ESRD does provide the past number of applicants in the 999 code per draw code and the respective priorities of the applicants.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

You dont understand the 999 situation very well. Generally, 999 has no WMU attached and you will never know where guys intend to deploy their 999 priority until they do. Most 999 applicants have no idea where they will apply until they decide to come out of the 999 code and into a WMU.

ESRD does provide the past number of applicants in the 999 code per draw code and the respective priorities of the applicants.

May want to read full posts. I know it perfect hence why I said its impossible to accurately determin wait times per zone with a 999 system. Because the 999 guys is undetermined and an unknown variable.

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

May want to read full posts. I know it perfect hence why I said its impossible to accurately determin wait times per zone with a 999 system. Because the 999 guys is undetermined and an unknown variable.

Do you think you should accurately be able to determine wait times per zone before you apply?

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

How do you include 999's when figuring out your draw wait times? Where does it state what priority levels the 999 guys are at by individual zone? You numbers could be so varied and flawed it could never be accurate unless it showed it by a zone by zone break down not just a total of 999 applicants and just how many at each priority.

This is the best way I know of.


Use a ratio of the total number of applicants in a draw wmu against the total number applicant in the draw code.

For wmu BBB.

eg. 1000 wmu BBB draw applicants /10000 total draw code applicants = 10%


Now use this percentage to calculate the approx. number of 999 applicants in a draw wmu from the total number of applicants in the draw code.

eg. 12000 draw code 999 applicants x 10% = 1200 applicants for wmu BBB.



The approximated number of applicants (WMU BBB specific and 999 inclusive) is 2200.




A person can use the same math using the priority levels to estimate the number of applicants with a specific priority.

It is an estimation, but based on solid statistical analysis and probability techniques.

Anyone know of a more accurate was to apporximate this number?

.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Do you think you should accurately be able to determine wait times per zone before you apply?

Never stated that. Was simply responding to Pottys post about using 999 numbers to determin wait times. Again please read all posts!!

I feel tou should put in never knowing how many years or applicants. You get drawn when you get drawn.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

This is the best way I know of.


Use a ratio of the total number of applicants in a draw wmu against the total number applicant in the draw code.

For wmu BBB.

eg. 1000 wmu BBB draw applicants /10000 total draw code applicants = 10%


Now use this percentage to calculate the approx. number of 999 applicants in a draw wmu from the total number of applicants in the draw code.

eg. 12000 draw code 999 applicants x 10% = 1200 applicants for wmu BBB.



The approximated number of applicants (WMU BBB specific and 999 inclusive) is 2200.




A person can use the same math using the priority levels to estimate the number of applicants with a specific priority.

It is an estimation, but based on solid statistical analysis and probability techniques.

Anyone know of a more accurate was to apporximate this number?

.

So in other words just guess!! LoL

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

May want to read full posts. I know it perfect hence why I said its impossible to accurately determin wait times per zone with a 999 system. Because the 999 guys is undetermined and an unknown variable.

That's why you have to give your self a MAX number, by adding all 999's with higher priority. You have to assume that all 999's potentially draw in your zone, highly unlikely, but still must be calculated and factored. Its that max number that will never increase....

I don't think we want to get into draw specific zone draws, like the sheep ones. The ability and freedom to change zones is a great option.

So yes there is no way to know the exact number of 999's in your specific zone. Besides determining the min/max, you also should be able to see the trend for your zone , if you follow it close enough to worry about draw times.