Changes To Archery Mule Deer.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by jr_80

Nothing is stopping you from buying some land and doing the same. As a land owner I apply on the draw and have never purchased a land owners tag. I could, but I choose not to. My choice as a landowner. Otherwise sit in whatever city you live in and go on the forum and whine and cry about opportunities gained or lost on private land.

Do you realize that at present, Landowner Licences are offered on an Unlimited Quota? Available Draw Licences are being reduced in some WMUs because of the number of Landowner licences being issued. Resident Hunters are losing opportunity to hunt Public land because they cannot get a tag, as these tags are going to Landowners.

If this trend continues, the only Mule deer tags available will be through Outfitters or Landowners.

^^^ See the light Boys....




When Landowner Licences were first introduced, they were limited to 10% of the tags available through the draw system. It is time to get Landowner Licences back on a quota.

[WhiteyChaser]

The idea of a 4 point rule is ridiculous, there are a ton of 2 year old deer that are young 4x4s and by killing them you just dwindle the good genetics out of the deer herd

[jr_80]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Do you realize that at present, Landowner Licences are offered on an Unlimited Quota? Available Draw Licences are being reduced in some WMUs because of the number of Landowner licences being issued. Resident Hunters are losing opportunity to hunt Public land because they cannot get a tag, as these tags are going to Landowners.

If this trend continues, the only Mule deer tags available will be through Outfitters or Landowners.

^^^ See the light Boys....




When Landowner Licences were first introduced, they were limited to 10% of the tags available through the draw system. It is time to get Landowner Licences back on a quota.

WRONG! Read the Draw booklet. Pg 31.

http://albertaregulations.ca/2012-Al...ting-Draws.pdf

I see no mention of unlimited quota. The licence availability is managed by F&W.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by jr_80

WRONG! Read the Draw booklet. Pg 31.

http://albertaregulations.ca/2012-Al...ting-Draws.pdf

I see no mention of unlimited quota. The licence availability is managed by F&W.

Because you "see no mention of unlimited quota", it does not mean I'm wrong.



The licence availablity is managed by the local Bio. He/She can limit the number of Landowner licences issued in a WMU, but until the local Bio, say "No More Landowner tags", the MD quota is Unlimited.

I have the Landowner Licences Stats from AF&W. It was a biatch to get, but perseverance and some knowledge of the Freedom Of Information process paid off. The document states the WMU quota is Unlimited for both Antlered and Antlerless MD.

[jr_80]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Because you "see no mention of unlimited quota", it does not mean I'm wrong.



The licence availablity is managed by the local Bio. He/She can limit the number of Landowner licences issued in a WMU, but until the local Bio, say "No More Landowner tags", the MD quota is Unlimited.

I have the Landowner Licences Stats from AF&W. It was a biatch to get, but perseverance and some knowledge of the Freedom Of Information process paid off. The document states the WMU quota is Unlimited for both Antlered and Antlerless MD.

Please post this for all to view Buffalo. Perhaps on a new thread because we seem to have hijacked one on changes to archery mule deer

[missingtwo]

Originally Posted by WhiteyChaser

The idea of a 4 point rule is ridiculous, there are a ton of 2 year old deer that are young 4x4s and by killing them you just dwindle the good genetics out of the deer herd

Exactly. All that will be left is giant 2 and 3 pointers.

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Do you realize that at present, Landowner Licences are offered on an Unlimited Quota? Available Draw Licences are being reduced in some WMUs because of the number of Landowner licences being issued. Resident Hunters are losing opportunity to hunt Public land because they cannot get a tag, as these tags are going to Landowners.

If this trend continues, the only Mule deer tags available will be through Outfitters or Landowners.

^^^ See the light Boys....




When Landowner Licences were first introduced, they were limited to 10% of the tags available through the draw system. It is time to get Landowner Licences back on a quota.

So are you suggesting that the people who own the land where these deer eat, have shelter, reproduce should not have priority over someone who owns nothing that helps the game population, and with the exception of a small licence fee, contrubutes nothing to the overall health of the population. They only take from it?????

You do realize there are lots of land owners who are members on this site..... try using your idea in your opening next time when you ask for permisssion.

Why is it so hard to realize that even though land owners do not own the game, they own the land (talking private land ) that the game live on and it is not your right to access this land when ever you please. With the growing number of attitudes and comments that continue to attack land owners, and those that seem to "feel" good doing it, I can assure you that hunter opportunities on private land are going to continue to decline. You will however be left with that warm fuzzy feeling that you "sure told them".

[Brock1]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

IIRC wmu138 has more outfitter and landowner tags than it did resident draws for antlered mule deer. Now residents need to draw there to bowhunt so it's nice to know what priorities residents have in this province.

Any zone with a very small resident draw population is at risk to go over 15% on the bowhunting side. What is with the 15% number anyways?? Why is it written in stone? And of course it isn't really known what percentage is harvested because the data is poor.

Another sad day for resident hunters. Almost starting to get used to it now.

I see you holding a lion in your photo, you prob shot in africa as a non resident because you can obviously afford it. How many african residents do you think harvested lions in the area of africa you were in?

hmmmm...

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by Brock1

I see you holding a lion in your photo, you prob shot in africa as a non resident because you can obviously afford it. How many african residents do you think harvested lions in the area of africa you were in?

hmmmm...

Africa is unique alright. Anyone in the world can pay to kill animals there. It is no secret that they are for sale. Resident, non residents, a dog if he could pull the trigger or whomever. Its clearly advertised on websites. Generally it is privatized to some sort of degree and the opportunity is on the level for whomever can save up... Thats just the way it is. I didnt come up with the system.

Alberta doesnt sell game animals, or at least it doesnt to residents. You apply or buy a tag and the entire opportunity to do so is in the hands of the govt, in this case SRD. They let you draw or buy a tag based on their statistics. Their data has put residents behind non residents in terms of opportunity regardless of price, taxation contribution or home province. This is where i disagree with the system, not the fact that people from other places want to hunt here. Its how the govt puts their interests in front of the resident.

[grinr]

Originally Posted by bobalong

So are you suggesting that the people who own the land where these deer eat, have shelter, reproduce should not have priority over someone who owns nothing that helps the game population, and with the exception of a small licence fee, contrubutes nothing to the overall health of the population. They only take from it?????

Ummmm...NO,they should not have priority,they don't own the wildlife.
I really don't have any problem with landowner tags,and won't begrudge some guy that wants to put a doe in the freezer,sure why not,have at'er,as long as it's managed in a fair and equitable manner for all of the stakeholders.That however is not what I'm gleaning from this thread??When landowner tags are cutting directly in to the quotas,thus reducing opportunities for everybody else,then something is wrong with that picture.I don't care if you own 20 sections and have 300 deer utilizing that habitat for at least some portion of the year,they're still not YOUR deer,and every landowner tag given out affects the entire WMU quota and reduces opportunity for others to draw a tag.Or in another scenario,maybe you own only one section and I have permission to hunt those same deer on the surrounding 8 sections,but I can't draw a tag because every landowner in the county that owns a 1/4 section believes it's his God given right to shoot a trophy muley buck EVERY YEAR just because they happen to hop over your fence once in awhile....it ain't right.
Again,I'm not gonna begrudge the guy that wants to put some of that free meat that walks across his back forty in the freezer,but it should be antlerless only.They should have to draw for antlered game,just like EVERYBODY else.
I'm not gonna pretend that I know the history of Landowner tags,when they were introduced,or how that PRIVELAGE was lobbied for,but I'm willing to bet my favorite rifle that crop damage and population control was cited as one of the top reasons that landowners should get special consideration,and if that's
the case(likely?),doesn't it make sense that they should be taking out the females?further to that,if the issue is free meat,again,you can't eat antlers,does taste just as good or better than a rutted up old buck,antlers are just a trophy that have nothing to do with food or crop damage,and a trophy that is coveted by most of the hunting community at that.I can't think of a single legit reason why landowners should be able to harvest bucks when everybody else has to draw for them,and at the same time,the very act of them taking bucks reduces the quota for everybody else.

[walking buffalo]

My Reply in Red

Originally Posted by bobalong

So are you suggesting that the people who own the land where these deer eat, have shelter, reproduce should not have priority over someone who owns nothing that helps the game population, and with the exception of a small licence fee, contrubutes nothing to the overall health of the population. They only take from it?????

No.






You do realize there are lots of land owners who are members on this site.....Yes, and what is your point?


try using your idea in your opening next time when you ask for permisssion.

I do have this conversation with Landowners whose land I hunt on, and they agree with me. I have never been denied Access because of my position on Landowner Licence Quotas.



Why is it so hard to realize that even though land owners do not own the game, they own the land (talking private land ) that the game live on and it is not your right to access this land when ever you please.

I don't tresspass. Again, what's your point?


With the growing number of attitudes and comments that continue to attack land owners, and those that seem to "feel" good doing it, I can assure you that hunter opportunities on private land are going to continue to decline. You will however be left with that warm fuzzy feeling that you "sure told them".

I don't buy this "threat" a few put out there. Keeping Landowner Licences to a set Quota will not make any Landowner deny access for hunting EXCEPT from those Landowners who already deny the general public access. No net loss of access, IMO.

Now think about this. If Landowner Licences continue to be available on an Unlimited Quota, while Draw Licences are reduced to keep the Species Allocation in balance for conservation, What happens when Landowner Licence applications increase?

Obviously, Draw Licences must continue to be reduced.

Less Draw tags results in More Landowner tag applications. And so on goes the inward spiral.

In other words, keeping the Landowner Licence on an unlimited Quota has the direct effect of reducing Resident Draw hunting opportunity, Exactly what you say the concern is if a Quota was set at a limited percentage.


This is no sidetrack to the OP. Unlimited Landowner Licences has had a direct effect within the Allocation prosess and thus the proposed Archery Draw.


BTW,

2010 Antlered MD Landowner Licences - 925

2010 Antlerless MD Landowner Licences - 17

[J.B.]

For those of you who think there has been little resistance to this I know several ppl representing archery clubs who have put in countless hours arguing with rob Corrigan over the FACT that the data is very inaccurate. He refuses to back down on making a change to mule deer management immediately...long story short, the user groups have been told too f***ing bad this is what is going to happen. Corrigan is beyond reasoning and if there is too be any hope for wildlife management in alberta he must lose his job. Seriously...

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by J.B.

For those of you who think there has been little resistance to this I know several ppl representing archery clubs who have put in countless hours arguing with rob Corrigan over the FACT that the data is very inaccurate. He refuses to back down on making a change to mule deer management immediately...long story short, the user groups have been told too f***ing bad this is what is going to happen. Corrigan is beyond reasoning and if there is too be any hope for wildlife management in alberta he must lose his job. Seriously...

Hmmm.

The flimsy data used by AF&W does give me heartburn.

I recall Rob telling me that AF&W does not keep track of the number of Landowner Licences issued.

Yah, this is feeling dirty....


I do believe the true agenda behind having MD on Draw is simply to entrench yet another secies completely into the draw system, for Hunter management, not Wildlife management. Our loss, whether you hunt with a bow or not.

Originally Posted by J.B.

For those of you who think there has been little resistance to this I know several ppl representing archery clubs who have put in countless hours arguing with rob Corrigan over the FACT that the data is very inaccurate. He refuses to back down on making a change to mule deer management immediately...long story short, the user groups have been told too f***ing bad this is what is going to happen. Corrigan is beyond reasoning and if there is too be any hope for wildlife management in alberta he must lose his job. Seriously...

I wasn't saying that some people hadn't put up a considerable fight...far from it....I was just saying that there wasn't a very loud voice from a lot of people....not compared to the amount that complain on here anyhow. It's a problem endemic of the entire hunting community it seems. Just look at how many people aren't even aware of what's going on.......they need to become involved! The ABA was at the table...imagine if their voice was 15,000 strong.

[packhuntr]

Sheephunter. I dont care how you rationalize things like this. The problem in entirety is this,, we are paying for the job of fisheries, wildlife and habitat management. What we are getting is a fockn gong show. The job is simply not being done. To imply that we after paying should have to spend our time fighting is simply out of touch wih reality. Our wildlife are being let down, and so are we. Its just about enough slim. When will we just demand accountability and move fockn on. While people dyck around in little political fiascos and back handed bs, our wildlife lose. Why cant things just get done right here. Shes past the point of embarrasing now in this province, has been for some time.

[C Taylor]

If every bowhunter joined aba the voice would definitely be louder.
One thing to consider when slamming landowner tags. If a farmer wants to shoot a good deer but doesn't get drawn an cant get a tag. Why would he allow someone else to hunt his land. He could just as easily put up NO HUNTING signs and wait until he does get drawn. Anybody that doesn't think this would happen is kidding themselves. Hard enough to have permission now on land of a farmer that hunts but if you take his privledges away he's not going to welcome everyone with open arms. I never got a landowners tag because I had a general tag. All srd is doing is shooting themselves in the foot

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Sheephunter. I dont care how you rationalize things like this. The problem in entirety is this,, we are paying for the job of fisheries, wildlife and habitat management. What we are getting is a fockn gong show. The job is simply not being done. To imply that we after paying should have to spend our time fighting is simply out of touch wih reality. Our wildlife are being let down, and so are we. Its just about enough slim. When will we just demand accountability and move fockn on. While people dyck around in little political fiascos and back handed bs, our wildlife lose. Why cant things just get done right here. Shes past the point of embarrasing now in this province, has been for some time.

So we throw out hands in the air and quit? You've identified a problem for sure....I'm more about solutions

[The Spruce]

Muledeer draw everywhere would be okay if the tags are issued for rifle and archery. I bowhunt Muledeer myself, and don't agree that I should be able to shoot a deer every season with my bow. They should make it like sheep where you could only shoot a muley every other year with a bow. I have not heard that any changes are written in stone yet, just talk right now. At least that's what my buddy that sitar on the round table said anyways.

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by killerbren

.......The idea for a separate draw cannot happen for two years as the current draw system contract is almost up and tenders have been sent to two companies to rework/update the system.........

Is anyone else here completely blown away by this???? ( if it is in fact true ). Our wildlife management strategies, and hunting opportunities, are being dictated by a contract, with a private company, that is in place to basically hande the EF'N paperwork???? Am I understanding this correctly?

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

So we throw out hands in the air and quit? You've identified a problem for sure....I'm more about solutions

I suppose im not as optimistic as you are Sheephunter. Im hard wired to be, but after seeing the potential of this outfit, my time is better spent taking, you know, while its still here to be had lol. Ya, looks like we all are capable of being no good cok sukers, except we are pushed there and given no choice.

Ya it sorta looks that way doesnt it Dave. Quite a deal aint it... Pizz poor.

[sakogreywolf]

Perhaps a house cleaning is part of the solution.

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by C Taylor

If every bowhunter joined aba the voice would definitely be louder.
One thing to consider when slamming landowner tags. If a farmer wants to shoot a good deer but doesn't get drawn an cant get a tag. Why would he allow someone else to hunt his land. He could just as easily put up NO HUNTING signs and wait until he does get drawn. Anybody that doesn't think this would happen is kidding themselves. Hard enough to have permission now on land of a farmer that hunts but if you take his privledges away he's not going to welcome everyone with open arms. I never got a landowners tag because I had a general tag. All srd is doing is shooting themselves in the foot

This is what I was trying to suggest in my previous post, but some people have blinders on when it comes to thinking what they will "make" land owners agree to.

[H380]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Do you realize that at present, Landowner Licences are offered on an Unlimited Quota? Available Draw Licences are being reduced in some WMUs because of the number of Landowner licences being issued. Resident Hunters are losing opportunity to hunt Public land because they cannot get a tag, as these tags are going to Landowners.

If this trend continues, the only Mule deer tags available will be through Outfitters or Landowners.

^^^ See the light Boys....




When Landowner Licences were first introduced, they were limited to 10% of the tags available through the draw system. It is time to get Landowner Licences back on a quota.

I agree with most of your post WB , however I can't figure this one . Just cause Landowner licences are on an unlimited basis , it doesn't mean that all landowners get one or even fill the tag ! Kinda like saying there could be too many drivers so let's stop making cars . As to posts on here saying that landowners think they own the wildlife on their property , maybe a few have that attitude but for the most part the majorety of ranchers do a decent job of allowing hunters on their property to shoot " their deer ' . If the landowner tag is dropped I know a fair amount of land that is gonna go " NO HUNTING ' until the owner gets a chance to get drawn , and I don't blame em .

[shedcrazy]

Well I think there will be changes in the landowner tags next year as well...from what I am hearing.

[whitetail Junkie]

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

Well I think there will be changes in the landowner tags next year as well...from what I am hearing.

One of the head biologists wanted Mule buck & bull elk landowner tags scrapped many moons ago,however he told my DaD to his face that the Lethbridge fish and game association put a stop to it,because local Ranchers in turn wouldnt allow hunting on there land.Ive brought this up on here before,so either the Lethbridge fish and game is lieing or the biologist is lieing.....Who The "F" knows?

[pottymouth]

Land owners should have the right to shoot a muley ever year, it's their land...
Wait, natives should have rights to all land, it's their land first......
No, the government should control all land and make us all pay to access it....
Heck only people with money should hunt, let's raise prices to everything......

After all that really who's left to hunt. Let's just join PETA and then we will all finally have equal opportunity. Zero hunting for everyone!

Originally Posted by packhuntr

I suppose im not as optimistic as you are Sheephunter. Im hard wired to be, but after seeing the potential of this outfit, my time is better spent taking, you know, while its still here to be had lol. Ya, looks like we all are capable of being no good cok sukers, except we are pushed there and given no choice.

Ya it sorta looks that way doesnt it Dave. Quite a deal aint it... Pizz poor.

Some days you make a lot of sense pack....others not so much......

[Alta_Redneck]

Originally Posted by ASAT1

I'll have to agree with you 100% ,make it a 3 or 4 pt rule if it's 4 pt then at least there's a better chance of more mature bucks being harvested, I believe in BC it's a 4 pt rule ,correct me if I'm wrong, and some of the bucks there that I've seen taken there are beauties,and I know that there are a ton of awesome bucks taken this year in Alberta, but just imagine if there was a 4 pt rule.

Sorry but that's a horrible idea, there's an awful lot of hunters that just look to fill the freezer. If these guys go around shooting the first 4 point buck they see, these deer won't have time to mature taking out any deer with potential in its future. Right now there's plenty of people that are happy getting spikers, 2 points and 3 points, take all of these hunters and have them bagging 4 pointers quality is sure to suffer. I have no problem with meat hunters but the way it is now is the best for trophy potential and who wouldn't want to bag that deer of a life time.

[remmy300]

I think the landowner tags are a joke. I put in my mule deer draw and after 5 years get the opportunity to hunt. We own land in a great area. I do not put in for a landowner tag as we don't live there. This year while hunting we ran into 2 different landowners more than 10 miles from their land and openly state they are hunting mule deer. Hard to prove when they also have a whitetail tag in their pocket? The whole system is screwed up. Landowner tags are to hunt your own land.

It's more than the system. I think that the amount of poaching has escalated. Tonight my dad had a talk with the fish cops who were pulling a dead md out of the ditch. Head cut off, and no sign of car parts. There was a bullet in the shoulder though.

I don't have the answers. There are a lot of variables, with bowhunters on the rise and a couple bad winters, it's a puzzle that's gonna take some time to put back together.

I predominantly bowhunt. It makes me a little crazy that mule deer is going to be put on draw in both zones where our family owns land. If it means the chance shooting good deer again, I'm all for it.

I think it should be like saskabush. Look at resident only hunting. Implement what the Yukon has as far as term of a resident prior to getting a license. Anyways, just my .02

[jr_80]

Originally Posted by grinr

Ummmm...NO,they should not have priority,they don't own the wildlife.
I really don't have any problem with landowner tags,and won't begrudge some guy that wants to put a doe in the freezer,sure why not,have at'er,as long as it's managed in a fair and equitable manner for all of the stakeholders.That however is not what I'm gleaning from this thread??When landowner tags are cutting directly in to the quotas,thus reducing opportunities for everybody else,then something is wrong with that picture.I don't care if you own 20 sections and have 300 deer utilizing that habitat for at least some portion of the year,they're still not YOUR deer,and every landowner tag given out affects the entire WMU quota and reduces opportunity for others to draw a tag.Or in another scenario,maybe you own only one section and I have permission to hunt those same deer on the surrounding 8 sections,but I can't draw a tag because every landowner in the county that owns a 1/4 section believes it's his God given right to shoot a trophy muley buck EVERY YEAR just because they happen to hop over your fence once in awhile....it ain't right.
Again,I'm not gonna begrudge the guy that wants to put some of that free meat that walks across his back forty in the freezer,but it should be antlerless only.They should have to draw for antlered game,just like EVERYBODY else.
I'm not gonna pretend that I know the history of Landowner tags,when they were introduced,or how that PRIVELAGE was lobbied for,but I'm willing to bet my favorite rifle that crop damage and population control was cited as one of the top reasons that landowners should get special consideration,and if that's
the case(likely?),doesn't it make sense that they should be taking out the females?further to that,if the issue is free meat,again,you can't eat antlers,does taste just as good or better than a rutted up old buck,antlers are just a trophy that have nothing to do with food or crop damage,and a trophy that is coveted by most of the hunting community at that.I can't think of a single legit reason why landowners should be able to harvest bucks when everybody else has to draw for them,and at the same time,the very act of them taking bucks reduces the quotaom for everybody else.

Hey Grinr, from Calgary. Do you want to come and hunt mule deer on my 20 quarters of land I own along the red deer river valley from Rumsey to Drumheller? Never seen you here asking for permission. Sorry I don't have 20 sections. Tough to buy that much land at 32 years of age.
As I said before, I do not purchase land owner tags, I apply on the draw as do other hunters in my area.I do not hunt to put something in the freezer, and could not shut down hunting on my privately owned land and hunt on others. I do trophy hunt. My freezer is full of beef as well as an elk that I got 350 km away on private land that I had permission on.

For those that do not accept my stance-come talk to me. Ask permission. I never turned anyone down. And if you we're to conduct yourself the way some on the forum do, I will give you directions to the quickest rout to access public land.