Mission Possible with Mystery Pointer?

[Calamity]

Well after lurking around here for a while I finally got my act together and joined this great information sharing forum. Please bear with my noob questions but I don't personally know anyone who trains or hunts with dogs.

I adopted a dog from the SPCA a week ago that I'd fostered over the Christmas holidays. He was listed as a GSP but honestly appears to be GWP or a cross between the two breeds. Anyway, the jist of his history is that he is a year and a half old, was originally owned by somebody in Vancouver (probably thought he was cute as a pup and then found out that a high-energy breed isn't always an easy dog to have growing up in a city), was re-homed to some people in Prince George who claimed he chased horses (the folks here said they fostered him with lady who had horses and she said he ignored hers so who knows what really went on there).

In fostering him over the holidays I was completely impressed with his intelligence, trainablity and a huge drive to please. He sure seems to be keen - took him into the pet store to look at some odds and ends and he froze into a beautiful point at the ferrets in their cage! Almost busted a gut laughing when we went into the hunting store - he did it again with both the duck decoys on display and an archery coyote decoy.

The long and short of this post though is that although I've trained border collies for working cattle back when I was ranching, I've never trained or hunted over a dog (although it's long been an ambition of mine). Do you knowledgable folks think this guy is too old or too much of a genetic un-known for a green handler/trainer to tackle? Would it be better to save my money and have him sent out or would it just be better to scrap the whole idea and wait to get a pup?

Sorry for being so long-winded in my first post here. Thanks for any input. I've attatched a couple of pics. First is him just kicking back and the second he was waiting for me to release him to retrieve the dummy (playing around in the house).






Edit: Completely frustrated now! Spent over an hour messing around trying to upload my pics off Photobucket. Guess I'll need some tips on that, too. Last ditch effort trying to upload through the attatchments option. Sigh.

[ishootbambi]

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=82419

try this to post full size pics directly. i like to use the IMG for bulletin boards and forums for fullsize. it puts up a full size pic with no link.....like this



welcome aboard and good luck with your dog. there are some real knowledgeable training guys here who im sure will help you out.

[Calamity]

Thanks tons for the welcome and the link. I'll give 'er a whirl and see how it goes. Oh, darn nice mulie, by the way!








Yay! Victory with the image gremlins!

[kalmbach]

First congrats on a great looking dog. "GSP or GWP" ....definitely has the looks.
After reading your post it sounds like you already know the answer to your question. He is already showing instinctive skills. Build on those and the rest will come easy. Fetch with dummies and then real birds. Make it a game and playtime for best results. Youtube is full of great training videos and well worth learning techniques.

I personally believe any dog can be trained at any age. It takes time and patience but when they perform as taught its a wonderful feeling. I think the dog knows it too when it happens. They just want to please you.

I have a two year old Lab who at 6 months old couldn't swim (seriously... almost drowned him and had to rescue him a few times before he figured it out a few months later) and wouldn't touch a downed bird when i started. Felt like i had a defective dog.... thats all supposed be natural to a lab. Now he's like an old pro. Took a lot of time and work with him but all worthwhile in the end.

[Sneeze]

Originally Posted by Calamity

Do you knowledgable folks think this guy is too old or too much of a genetic un-known for a green handler/trainer to tackle?

You answered your own question when you said...

I've never trained or hunted over a dog (although it's long been an ambition of mine).

You have the will, that awesome looking pup has the way. Make er happen. Dogs are whatever you wan't them to be. That's a dog born to work if I ever saw one, give him a job and he is gonna do it!

Good luck with your puppy. I would start with some pointing dog training books. I would suggest "Gun Dog" book by Richard Wolters, pick up a few until you find one that matches up with your ideas and then builds on them. I would also look around for a nearby Gun Dog Club. Those folks are always eager to help.

[Whiskey Wish]

Perhaps some Large Munsterlander breeding in there?

Doesn't really matter what breed(s) the dog is as long as you are happy with it. I once had an old cowboy friend tell me "Pretty IS as pretty DOES!"
Never truer words were spoken.

Personally I would give the dog a couple of months to really bond with you. They need to think the best place in the world to be is right beside YOU! Then just take your time and teach them what you want. Mistakes can be fixed 99% of the time so don't sweat the small stuff. Be carefull introducing him to a gun, that mistake can be hard to fix. Start off with a helper shooting a 22 far away and watch his reaction. Then carefully move closer. Once he associates a gun with hunting he will likely carry it to the truck if you let him.

Every dog is individual and some have their quirks. We had a yellow lab that would retrieve ducks until the pond froze over but would only pick up upland game if she thought you could not get to it yourself. i.e. across a stream
I had a lab x GS that would hunt anything I told him to put his nose on, grouse, rabbits, fox, but would watch ducks fly over all day long and couldn't care less.

YouTube has tons of videos, there are a lot of good books and I am sure there are a couple of good dog guys on this forum that will volunteer help.
Regards,
Dave.

[archer8]

Hi Ya

Love your pup -- Ive had springers and labs -- both lots o fun and loyal as you can get -- Mostly they just played and hung out -- so much for working for their keep

But sis had a pointer as well -- great dog

Good Luck and happy Hunting

Cheers

Ian

[uncle buck]

bird dogs need birds- I'd go to a shooting preserve and buy a couple birds, probably some chukar or pigeons. Maybe pull out the flight feathers and throw the bird and let him chase them a bit. See how it goes. He might catch it- he might point it where it hit the ground. He might eat it. All of these are ok. You want him to really like birds- birds are going to be his favourite thing in the world!! Once you put the fire in there you can start to introduce the gun.

I'd start introducing the gun only when it is in a full chase on a bird. If he stops and looks at you whe you shoot go back a step - more birds, stand farther back, lower guage etc... DOn't rush the gun!! Birds first.

[cover]

I would say it is a GWP.. just take him out in the feilds where you are likely to have bird contacts and do it as often as you can . During the next few months ( if you are in partridge country ) the Huns will be pairing off for the spring and instead of one contact with a covey of 12 you will get six contacts with pairs . If he is showing the kind of insticts you describe he will pretty much train himself. If he flushes the birds on purpose, or the birds flush on their own don't say anything. If he points the birds and you flush them tell him what a good boy he is.You can throw a dokken dead fowl trainer for him (after you flush the birds) when he does it right as a reward.You are trying to teach him that it is a partnership and he can't get the bird without you.Keep your eyes open for road killed birds and freeze them to use for retrieving and hunting dead.

[AndersonSkiTeam]

I have GWP's, my brother has GSPs and my neighbour has mixed GWP/GSP (not from my dog). Your's looks like a mix. Definitely some GWP in there.

Some good advice so far. Bond with your dog so you he totally trusts you and work on basic obedience. With a pointer many say don't teach sit but in the house I find sit to be helpful and I have never had my dog sit on a point. Whoa is something good to start working on for the basics.

There are some great books and DVDs on training pointing dogs and versatile dogs. Your dog is bred to track, water retrieve, and point. I would suggest mainly working on some simple retrieves (not to much as it is not a lab and will get bored with this quickly if it is like my dogs) and get it on some birds. A check cord, eventually an e-collar, a couple of bumpers and if you have room for it a bird launcher or 2 and you will be good to go. Sounds like the dog has some nice natural instinct so you just need to give the dog some exposure and let it figure it out. Once you get the dog going it might be interested to try a release hunt if they are good flying birds. You do not want your dog catching birds so they must be good flyers. Some dogs get it almost immedietly and just start pointing and holding point for a long time. Others take some work to steady. Good luck and enjoy your dog.

P.S. This forum is full of great bird dog owners who know a ton more than me. I would also suggest a couple of forums that focus solely on versatile dogs or pointing dogs to help fill in some of the blanks. If you search this forum and those forum's I can guarantee any question you have has been answered already and if you have additional questions people are usually helpful. Just don't ever ask what the difference is between a DD and GWP and you will be ok.

[cover]

www.versatiledogs.com a wealth of information here

[Pudelpointer]

Noticed you are in the Peace. Biggest challenge you will likely have is access to birds. Here in SA we are blessed with an abundance of birds (even when our populations are abysmally low, we still have more birds available then most other areas of the country) which makes dog training a lot easier.

Sounds like your dog has a bunch of potential; key now is to avoid any major pitfalls. Lots of unknowns with an adopted dog: has it been poorly introduced to birds, guns, etc.? Best to start slowly and from the beginning; in other words, don't throw a clipped bird in front of the dog and then fire a shot from a shotgun. Quick way to cause all sorts of association issues. Start with a dummy, then when solid strap some wings to it, then hard frozen birds, then fresh dead.

Only when retrieving is 100% would I move on to live bird training, introduction to gunfire, etc. Chances are your dog will progress rapidly and successfully, but your main concern should be what you don't know, and how to keep from reinforcing any problems.

Wolter's book is a good start, so are a bunch of others. Use them as guidelines to inform your own training process. Try different things if one way is not progressing the way you hoped.

Good luck.

[densa44]

Just some people are better teachers and some dogs are better at certain things.

Your dog may be as good or better than a pure bred. The reason dog clubs don't encourage cross breeds is that the breeding can't be repeated.

One off like yours I'd give him a chance for sure.

Check the NAVHDA site, there is an Alberta club Wild Rose and we train with birds.

Put the dog through the obedience part of the training now, and in the spring you can start finding, pointing and retrieving. He is not too old that is for sure, but he may have some bad habits that need correcting.

Let us know how this goes.

[Redfrog]

"Edit: Completely frustrated now! Spent over an hour messing around trying to upload my pics off Photobucket. Guess I'll need some tips on that, too. Last ditch effort trying to upload through the attatchments option. Sigh. "

Should have gotten the dog to do it. He looks smart enough. What a cool looking dog.


For a newbie to get any real information from a forum takes a lot more than a few posts from guys who are trying to point you in the right direction,[ Did you see what I did there.

The dog sounds like a great candidate for training. I train retrievers. My brother trains border collies for stock work. One year we each had a litter of pups on the ground at the same time, so we swapped a puppy.

Even though both of us were very successful in competition with our chosen breeds, when it came to training it was painful. That border knew more than I did and the lab knew more than he did. We lived too far apart to train together and we ended up with two dogs that cold do the work but weren't real pretty ding it.

Try to find a club that has hunt tests or trials. Even if you can't find a pointer club, contact a retriever club . It is easier to train in a group and some of the basics apply to both breeds.

Good luck with your new friend, he sounds like a keener.

[thebuckshow]

He's actually a great looking dog. If you are both new to bird hunting, it will actually be a lot of fun for both you and the dog to learn it together. Go slow and be patient with him, and never expect too much out of him, and you guys will have a blast together. Just be sure to keep birds FUN for him and he will do fine. If the instinct and genetics are there, as long as you keep it fun, he will enjoy doing what he was meant to do. Have fun!

PS I love the color of that dog... your a lucky man!

[Calamity]

Wow! Tons of advice from you folks and greatly appreciated!

I know it's not going to be an "overnight" process of training this pup but I'm already having so much fun getting him to retrieve and find the bumper or dummy when I hide it that I'm willing put as much time into working him as possible.

He sure is keen on birds though - I have a goofy pet cockatiel and when that dog watches him like a hawk eyeballs a pigeon. Magpies in the backyard are an endless fascination for him, too. Sure look forward to seeing what he does when he comes up onto his first ruffed grouse.

One learning curve today though...was squeezing the tube of pheasant scent onto the dummy that looks like a sharp-tail and BLAMMO - the control flow cap shot off and my kitchen and porch were liberally covered with the lovely brown smelly stuff everywhere. Walls. Floor. Fridge. Mats. Windows.

Good thing this girl isn't afraid of a little mess!

[goldscud]

I got my GSP when she was 2.5 years old and she was my first dog. I was the third owner. She wasn't trained for upland hunting and was really good at running full speed until SHE decided she wanted to come back. After spending lots of time with her, reading a bunch of books, and eventually getting an e-collar, she has turned into a great hunting buddy. She is not an "excellent" bird dog, but her trainer is a rookie. We do bring home lots of birds though. Every year she gets smarter and we work together as a team to try and out-smart old roosters. I now have her trained with hand signals and a whistle. It has been a great journey and adds a whole new dimension to your hunt when everything comes together in a solid point. Be patient and have fun with the training.