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  #91  
Old 06-24-2020, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by EZM View Post
There was once also a group of people, a minority, where some of the people controlled wealth, banking and many industries. Some of the biggest companies and organizations of that era. Because of this, they were persecuted and 5 million of these people were put into concentration camps and killed, including women, children, and the elderly.

I'd suggest they wouldn't agree that affluence and/or financial did not lead to systematic racism for their people.
Now we are comparing North America to Nazi Germany
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  #92  
Old 06-24-2020, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by jungleboy View Post
Now we are comparing North America to Nazi Germany
Read the last sentence.

Affluence does not insulate or protect you from bigotry or persecution.

That's the point.

Last edited by EZM; 06-24-2020 at 09:46 PM.
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  #93  
Old 06-24-2020, 09:40 PM
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It seems to be a common thought around here that many of the minority groups choose a life of crime and that's where it all starts. More arrests. More prison. More poverty.

We certainly all have free will. Every last one of us. I won't argue that.

I do think the choices one has are shaped by your circumstances.

Imagine growing up with parents who are new immigrants. They have low paying jobs. You live in a rental property in a poor part of town surrounded by drug use and gangs. Perhaps you don't get to finish high school. Of course no chance at university. Your job prospects are slim at best. At this point selling drugs may look like a feasible option. This may lead to affiliation with a gang for protection.

Choose your own ending.

The point is, that when people cite prison statistics as a marker of underlying systemic problems, they're not implying that the police force or judicial system is targeting one group (despite how the media is portraying it, cops are trained to profile just like everyone else). It points to a bigger issue that needs fixing.

There is ample evidence that poverty and dire circumstances lead to crime. The factors that lead to poverty and inequity of opportunity are the issue here.

I'm sure someone will get on their self-righteous high horse and claim again that everyone makes their own choices and the sht sandwich their life has turned into is only their own fault. Before you do that, try and put yourself in the shoes of someone that hasn't grown up with the same good fortune. Many of the choices you'd think someone would make are not even be options.
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  #94  
Old 06-24-2020, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by EZM View Post
Read the last sentence.

Affluence does not insulate or protect you from bigotry or persecution.

Do you understand the point?
I understand what you are saying , I donít see the relevance to the video but that might just be because I am not as smart as you .

You win the argument, well at least to the point where I am done arguing . Your mind is set and my mind is set and thatís that.
One thing I have learned here is that debate is futile on AO . It fills a lot of pages but basically just goes around in circles.
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  #95  
Old 06-25-2020, 06:29 AM
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One thing I have learned here is that debate is futile on AO . It fills a lot of pages but basically just goes around in circles.
Definition of debate.
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  #96  
Old 06-25-2020, 06:55 AM
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We should all be like Ben Mulroney and give up our jobs to make room for minorities?
https://globalnews.ca/news/7091836/b...y-quits-etalk/
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  #97  
Old 06-25-2020, 07:07 AM
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This news should kick off more rioting.
https://globalnews.ca/news/7102112/b...tar-ligo-hole/
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  #98  
Old 06-25-2020, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by pittman View Post
I'm sure someone will get on their self-righteous high horse and claim again that everyone makes their own choices and the sht sandwich their life has turned into is only their own fault. Before you do that, try and put yourself in the shoes of someone that hasn't grown up with the same good fortune. Many of the choices you'd think someone would make are not even be options.
My wife came from another country and she had a rough childhood and came to Canada with pennies with her mom and sister. She will be the first one to say you have the choice. You can blame other people for your life or you can own your own. Money doesn't make you a good person, you do.
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  #99  
Old 06-25-2020, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by pittman View Post
It seems to be a common thought around here that many of the minority groups choose a life of crime and that's where it all starts. More arrests. More prison. More poverty.

We certainly all have free will. Every last one of us. I won't argue that.

I do think the choices one has are shaped by your circumstances.

Imagine growing up with parents who are new immigrants. They have low paying jobs. You live in a rental property in a poor part of town surrounded by drug use and gangs. Perhaps you don't get to finish high school. Of course no chance at university. Your job prospects are slim at best. At this point selling drugs may look like a feasible option. This may lead to affiliation with a gang for protection.

Choose your own ending.

The point is, that when people cite prison statistics as a marker of underlying systemic problems, they're not implying that the police force or judicial system is targeting one group (despite how the media is portraying it, cops are trained to profile just like everyone else). It points to a bigger issue that needs fixing.

There is ample evidence that poverty and dire circumstances lead to crime. The factors that lead to poverty and inequity of opportunity are the issue here.

I'm sure someone will get on their self-righteous high horse and claim again that everyone makes their own choices and the sht sandwich their life has turned into is only their own fault. Before you do that, try and put yourself in the shoes of someone that hasn't grown up with the same good fortune. Many of the choices you'd think someone would make are not even be options.
With the life I grew up with and put in the effort to change my situation I earned the right to say your life is what you make it. I know what itís like to starve, and have no home thanks. No one gave me a hand up either. Someone forgot to sign me up for that white privilege I guess.

Poor me, blaming others, and making excuses does nothing to improve oneís situation. You may not get to choose how you start life but you can bet your A you have a choice on what you do with it

Hey if it makes you feel better to weep and have pity on people giver but it does not do a thing to help anyone
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  #100  
Old 06-25-2020, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by huntinstuff View Post
Getting blamed for the actions of others 300 years ago is idiotic.

Continuing that mentality today is idiotic.

Trying to change the past is idiotic. Cant be done.

Treat everyone with respect. Be nice to people. Capture and prosecute offenders. Let people believe in whatever god they choose. If they shout out his name and kill, capture and prosecute.

Dont persecute.

You dont have to agree with people, but you dont have to convert them either. If you convert yourself, fine.

Drive with respect for others.

Share if you like. Or dont. Thats a choice.

Personally, I dont care if youre gay, straight, a guy, a gal, white, black, Oriental, Inuit, FN, liberal, conservative or communist
, old, young, smart, not smart, tall, short, fat, skinny etc etc

If youre nice to me, I will be the same to you.

It seems pretty simplistic, and it is. Take people for who they are. Love em or leave em. But you dont hafta persecute them.
Itís not that complicated is it ? Maybe too simple for these times ?
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  #101  
Old 06-25-2020, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by jungleboy View Post
I understand what you are saying , I donít see the relevance to the video but that might just be because I am not as smart as you .

You win the argument, well at least to the point where I am done arguing . Your mind is set and my mind is set and thatís that.
One thing I have learned here is that debate is futile on AO . It fills a lot of pages but basically just goes around in circles.
Nah - come on - I'm not all that sharp so being smarter than me isn't that tough ...lol ... and, I do enjoy a good conversation and discussion.

... Humor and tone is very hard and almost impossible to accurately interpret all the time in the written word.
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  #102  
Old 06-25-2020, 06:47 PM
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My wife came from another country and she had a rough childhood and came to Canada with pennies with her mom and sister. She will be the first one to say you have the choice. You can blame other people for your life or you can own your own. Money doesn't make you a good person, you do.
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Originally Posted by Smoky buck View Post
With the life I grew up with and put in the effort to change my situation I earned the right to say your life is what you make it. I know what itís like to starve, and have no home thanks. No one gave me a hand up either. Someone forgot to sign me up for that white privilege I guess.

Poor me, blaming others, and making excuses does nothing to improve oneís situation. You may not get to choose how you start life but you can bet your A you have a choice on what you do with it

Hey if it makes you feel better to weep and have pity on people giver but it does not do a thing to help anyone
There are definitely success stories involving people from all walks of life, and while I agree that it's all about the choices you make, I believe it is way tougher for some people to become successful depending on how the earlier years of their life are. If you compare the proportion of people who become successful when they had an upbringing that set them up for success vs those who became successful with the odds stacked against them, I believe there would be a great disparity that reveals how challenging it can be for some and that we need to recognize this rather than just taking a hard stance of "it's the choices you make."
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  #103  
Old 06-25-2020, 07:28 PM
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There are definitely success stories involving people from all walks of life, and while I agree that it's all about the choices you make, I believe it is way tougher for some people to become successful depending on how the earlier years of their life are. If you compare the proportion of people who become successful when they had an upbringing that set them up for success vs those who became successful with the odds stacked against them, I believe there would be a great disparity that reveals how challenging it can be for some and that we need to recognize this rather than just taking a hard stance of "it's the choices you make."
Exactly. And I'd say a few of us here have made the same point which seems to be discounted by so many.

It's not to say personal accountability and taking responsibility for your actions isn't a significant contributing factor - it's just that we have weigh it all and consider all of the influences in our environments that contribute to who we are.
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  #104  
Old 06-25-2020, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by EZM View Post
Nah - come on - I'm not all that sharp so being smarter than me isn't that tough ...lol ... and, I do enjoy a good conversation and discussion.

... Humor and tone is very hard and almost impossible to accurately interpret all the time in the written word.
Youíre right I got frustrated with the debate. I also agree about humour and tone in the written word..

That said you and I are just going in circles so at some point itís time to move on.

Onward and upward.
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  #105  
Old 06-25-2020, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by fishpro View Post
There are definitely success stories involving people from all walks of life, and while I agree that it's all about the choices you make, I believe it is way tougher for some people to become successful depending on how the earlier years of their life are. If you compare the proportion of people who become successful when they had an upbringing that set them up for success vs those who became successful with the odds stacked against them, I believe there would be a great disparity that reveals how challenging it can be for some and that we need to recognize this rather than just taking a hard stance of "it's the choices you make."
Sounds like you are equating success to having lots of money. The older I get the more I realize it has nothing to do with money. Success for me is having an amazing and healthy family. I wouldnít trade my life for any money in the world.
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  #106  
Old 06-25-2020, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by fishpro View Post
There are definitely success stories involving people from all walks of life, and while I agree that it's all about the choices you make, I believe it is way tougher for some people to become successful depending on how the earlier years of their life are. If you compare the proportion of people who become successful when they had an upbringing that set them up for success vs those who became successful with the odds stacked against them, I believe there would be a great disparity that reveals how challenging it can be for some and that we need to recognize this rather than just taking a hard stance of "it's the choices you make."
Itís definitely easier for those who come from wealthy families or given a leg up being able to focus on education and this goes for all no matter what race you are. There is people of all races that face this.

We all still have a choice to make something of ourselves even if itís not easy. The problem is most will say they canít because itís too hard or impossible. Others will use it as an excuse for their actions. Watched this first hand and still see it with some childhood friends

Either way pity and giving people excuses because they have to overcome a rough start does nothing to help them if anything it lowers the self esteem of some and gives others a reason to give up
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  #107  
Old 06-25-2020, 08:08 PM
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Sounds like you are equating success to having lots of money. The older I get the more I realize it has nothing to do with money. Success for me is having an amazing and healthy family. I wouldnít trade my life for any money in the world.
I'm actually looking way beyond money in this situation, there is a lot to be said about a stable and healthy upbringing contributing to a person's path in life. They type of upbringing a person has and the way they are raised can contribute a lot to their ability to believe in themselves and create a great life for themselves. I'm not saying it's easy for anyone, it's just a lot easier for some than others, and I think it's important to recognize that.
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  #108  
Old 06-25-2020, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Smoky buck View Post
Itís definitely easier for those who come from wealthy families or given a leg up being able to focus on education and this goes for all no matter what race you are. There is people of all races that face this.

We all still have a choice to make something of ourselves even if itís not easy. The problem is most will say they canít because itís too hard or impossible. Others will use it as an excuse for their actions. Watched this first hand and still see it with some childhood friends

Either way pity and giving people excuses because they have to overcome a rough start does nothing to help them if anything it lowers the self esteem of some and gives others a reason to give up
I completely agree that it's still a choice they have to make, no matter how difficult, and also that pity and excuses will not help either. I think there needs to be a middle ground that recognizes and accepts these challenges, while at the same time finding a way to help empower people who feel the challenge is too difficult to overcome. I think that sadly there are a lot of families (of all races) within a multi generational cycle of emotional instability and trauma, and there needs to be more done to help empower people to break free of this cycle.
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  #109  
Old 06-25-2020, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by huntinstuff View Post
Getting blamed for the actions of others 300 years ago is idiotic.

Continuing that mentality today is idiotic.

Trying to change the past is idiotic. Cant be done.

Treat everyone with respect. Be nice to people. Capture and prosecute offenders. Let people believe in whatever god they choose. If they shout out his name and kill, capture and prosecute.

Dont persecute.

You dont have to agree with people, but you dont have to convert them either. If you convert yourself, fine.

Drive with respect for others.

Share if you like. Or dont. Thats a choice.

Personally, I dont care if youre gay, straight, a guy, a gal, white, black, Oriental, Inuit, FN, liberal, conservative or communist
, old, young, smart, not smart, tall, short, fat, skinny etc etc

If youre nice to me, I will be the same to you.

It seems pretty simplistic, and it is. Take people for who they are. Love em or leave em. But you dont hafta persecute them.
Put like this it really is quite simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jungleboy View Post
I understand what you are saying , I donít see the relevance to the video but that might just be because I am not as smart as you .

You win the argument, well at least to the point where I am done arguing . Your mind is set and my mind is set and thatís that.
One thing I have learned here is that debate is futile on AO . It fills a lot of pages but basically just goes around in circles.
With this EZM wins the argument.
As for a debate, you both made good points but I feel EZM made better ones.
Arguments and debates are different things.
Nice to see it didnít evolve into name calling.
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  #110  
Old 06-26-2020, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Chewbacca View Post
Put like this it really is quite simple.



With this EZM wins the argument.
As for a debate, you both made good points but I feel EZM made better ones.
Arguments and debates are different things.
Nice to see it didnít evolve into name calling.
Thanks for the shout out, I appreciate it, but many others added many good thoughts to the discussion for both perspectives.

And, like I was saying to JB, sometimes it's hard for us to interpret tone and some things come off as rude whish aren't meant to be - so I'd rather think of this as a discussion instead of an argument really. Last thing we need to do is beat each other up and make their opinion and thoughts feel unwelcome.

I've learned lots on this forum and on many topics my perspective has changed thanks to other who made me think about stuff.

JB's already back up and going with another thread from a slightly different angle on the same topic. We all survive to fight another day
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  #111  
Old 07-02-2020, 10:50 PM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
 
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Originally Posted by EZM View Post
There was once also a group of people, a minority, where some of the people controlled wealth, banking and many industries. Some of the biggest companies and organizations of that era. Because of this, they were persecuted and 5 million of these people were put into concentration camps and killed, including women, children, and the elderly.

I'd suggest they wouldn't agree that affluence and/or financial did not lead to systematic racism for their people.
Sure, that happened, but I'd say that there was a brief period of time that they were not persecuted. And after all we're still talking about systemic racism here; were we not?

The base argument for systemic racism is built around the speaking point that non dominant races are held back by a system of oppression. Especially speaking of economic opportunity.

I read and hear about how much lower the black's wages are, and the type of neighborhoods forced on them, but I'm inclined to agree with David Webb, Candace Owens and Larry Elder on the matter. Biggest problem started in the 50's when the welfare system in the U.S. was overhauled to favor single parent families.
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  #112  
Old 07-03-2020, 06:23 PM
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Sure, that happened, but I'd say that there was a brief period of time that they were not persecuted. And after all we're still talking about systemic racism here; were we not?

The base argument for systemic racism is built around the speaking point that non dominant races are held back by a system of oppression. Especially speaking of economic opportunity.

I read and hear about how much lower the black's wages are, and the type of neighborhoods forced on them, but I'm inclined to agree with David Webb, Candace Owens and Larry Elder on the matter. Biggest problem started in the 50's when the welfare system in the U.S. was overhauled to favor single parent families.
Systematic racism is a form (or a subset) of institutional discrimination.

Sometimes it's race, sometimes it's religion, it's immigrants, or sometimes it's targeting the economically depressed.

The bottom line is, that this exists and there are plenty of examples of this, and there really shouldn't be any arguing about the validity of this.

Your last sentence is a perfect example of institutional discrimination - a group favored (or discriminated) by a policy of an institution. This knife cuts in many ways.

And there's plenty of situations where specifically there is systematic racism too. Plenty of examples on this thread.
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  #113  
Old 07-03-2020, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by EZM View Post
Systematic racism is a form (or a subset) of institutional discrimination.

Sometimes it's race, sometimes it's religion, it's immigrants, or sometimes it's targeting the economically depressed.

The bottom line is, that this exists and there are plenty of examples of this, and there really shouldn't be any arguing about the validity of this.

Your last sentence is a perfect example of institutional discrimination - a group favored (or discriminated) by a policy of an institution. This knife cuts in many ways.

And there's plenty of situations where specifically there is systematic racism too. Plenty of examples on this thread.
Sorry EZM honest question is systemic and systematic racism the same? I just notice he bolded systemic and you are saying systematic
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  #114  
Old 07-03-2020, 08:47 PM
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Having worked 35 years, with people of all races and religions, I have a lot of first hand experience with racism. It certainly does exist, but not always in the way many people think. I have been pressured to hire people based on race, even though they were not qualified. I have seen people sent to rehab two and three times, rather than be fired, because of their race. I have seen people miss huge amounts of time while at apprenticeship school, and not be tossed out of the course, because of their race. I have seen people not fired for absenteeism, because of their race as well. I have seen people promoted, because of their race. When large companies and large organizations get involved, reverse racism, can be as bad or worse than what most people consider to be racism. I saw many people intimidated into following these programs , but I refused, I hired based on qualifications, and I gave appraisals based on performance, not to be politically correct, so my conscience is clear. And lucky for me, my boss did the same, which made it easier for me.
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  #115  
Old 07-03-2020, 09:58 PM
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Elk.... your such a liar


Have you worked with the aghorians?
Or the Maradonians...? Huh?



Geeze.... makin them claims....
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  #116  
Old 07-03-2020, 11:43 PM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
 
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Sorry EZM honest question is systemic and systematic racism the same? I just notice he bolded systemic and you are saying systematic
Systemic denotes something that is system wide, ingrained.

Systematic refers to something that resembles an organized plan, or step by step process.

Fairly similar, but the topic at hand would be better described as systemic. Meaning that there is no steps or graduation of oppression, but rather something that isn't consciously done or planned out.

What happened to the Jews in Nazi Germany would be better described as systematic. Rights and freedoms were gradually stripped along with a dehumanizing propaganda used against them.
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  #117  
Old 07-04-2020, 02:57 AM
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Are Blond lives matter?
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  #118  
Old 07-04-2020, 05:24 AM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
 
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Originally Posted by EZM View Post
Systematic racism is a form (or a subset) of institutional discrimination.

Sometimes it's race, sometimes it's religion, it's immigrants, or sometimes it's targeting the economically depressed.

The bottom line is, that this exists and there are plenty of examples of this, and there really shouldn't be any arguing about the validity of this.

Your last sentence is a perfect example of institutional discrimination - a group favored (or discriminated) by a policy of an institution. This knife cuts in many ways.

And there's plenty of situations where specifically there is systematic racism too. Plenty of examples on this thread.
Shouldn't we keep it on topic? Changing the terms, broadening the scope and moving goal posts to and fro doesn't do the topic justice.

Economic disadvantage by itself, belief systems are independent of color.

Saying that there is institutional discrimination might lead one to the wrong conclusions. Affirmative action practices, grants, and deferential treatments is racist. It's insulting to minorities; the lowering of the bar doesn't foster self worth and accomplishes bitter feeling to those not subject to the same leniencies.

But none of it is designed to oppress as it is portrayed. I'd like to hear about the practices that supposedly exist to do this.
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  #119  
Old 07-04-2020, 07:51 AM
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It's definitely real (systemic racism).
Most here benefit from white privilege but don't realize it because it is what they grew up with. The fact that I, as a white male have never had to worry about not being accepted for a job because of my skin color...or know that when stopped by police it will go smoothly (as long as I don't act like a jerk)...it's been that way my entire life so it just wasn't something I thought about in the past.
But I've worked for large companies that had no employees that weren't white, even though I saw people of color applying for jobs.
Iíve had quite the opposite experience. I was flat out told that I wouldnít be hired, right in the interview, even though I shouldíve been on the short list, because of a company directive to bring in more visible minorities in to the company. Straight out of the person doing the interview.

Systemic racism does exist, and its there against everyone, no matter the skin color, there is something ďracistĒ. Our own federal government has grants that I canít apply for because Iím white. Iíve seen many job postings that say we only accept ďwhatever coloredĒ people or whatever religion base of people. Thatís discrimination, plain and simple. Everybody deals with,itís a matter of how you respond.
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  #120  
Old 07-04-2020, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by bessiedog View Post
Elk.... your such a liar


Have you worked with the aghorians?
Or the Maradonians...? Huh?



Geeze.... makin them claims....
Some people don't want to hear about this, but if you work for certain companies, or deal with certain organizations, it is a fact of life. And it's even worse when the company that you work for has agreed to maintain a set percentage of employees of a certain race. The last thing they want, is to fire employees, and drop below the agreed percentage. Some employees were even told to just show up and they would receive a six figure salary. We had issues with every race and religion, the difference was how the company reacted to those issues.
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