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  #121  
Old 07-04-2020, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Glion View Post
Sorry EZM honest question is systemic and systematic racism the same? I just notice he bolded systemic and you are saying systematic
Sorry should have read Systemic

didn't notice that - sorry

yeah - it would change the meaning - two different roots there one is passive and a kind of a by-product and the other is purposeful and structured.
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  #122  
Old 07-04-2020, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Tactical Lever View Post
Shouldn't we keep it on topic? Changing the terms, broadening the scope and moving goal posts to and fro doesn't do the topic justice.

Economic disadvantage by itself, belief systems are independent of color.

Saying that there is institutional discrimination might lead one to the wrong conclusions. Affirmative action practices, grants, and deferential treatments is racist. It's insulting to minorities; the lowering of the bar doesn't foster self worth and accomplishes bitter feeling to those not subject to the same leniencies.

But none of it is designed to oppress as it is portrayed. I'd like to hear about the practices that supposedly exist to do this.
Meant to use systemic instead of systematic not sure why I didn't catch that - sorry.
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  #123  
Old 07-04-2020, 11:45 AM
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Elk.... just messin wit ya.

I’m sure you’ve seen the obvious unintended injustices that result from affirmative action policies.

Govt equity programs are for sure imperfect creatures when it comes to Social Jjstice issues.

But just to counter point..... I’ll bet in your 35 years you’ve seen just as many hires and ‘don’t fires’ due to nepotism..... yes?

Lots of evils out there..... I don’t think one is worse than the other.
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  #124  
Old 07-04-2020, 11:59 AM
Glion Glion is offline
 
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Originally Posted by EZM View Post
Sorry should have read Systemic

didn't notice that - sorry

yeah - it would change the meaning - two different roots there one is passive and a kind of a by-product and the other is purposeful and structured.
That's what I thought. No worries just wanted to make sure as I was reading it.
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  #125  
Old 07-04-2020, 12:00 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by bessiedog View Post
Elk.... just messin wit ya.

I’m sure you’ve seen the obvious unintended injustices that result from affirmative action policies.

Govt equity programs are for sure imperfect creatures when it comes to Social Jjstice issues.

But just to counter point..... I’ll bet in your 35 years you’ve seen just as many hires and ‘don’t fires’ due to nepotism..... yes?

Lots of evils out there..... I don’t think one is worse than the other.
I have seen relatives of certain people hired, and promoted, as well as members of certain lodges, but that became less and less common, whereas affirmative action programs, have played a much larger role recently.
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  #126  
Old 07-04-2020, 05:09 PM
Mulehahn Mulehahn is offline
 
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The most glaring, and terrible, example of systemic racism was the MMIW Inquiry. It will literally get people killed. Now I am not talking about a special inquiry into a problem baser on race as First Nations do face specific problems.

What I am talking about is the burying of evidence and refusal to acknowledge what the real problem is. The study into known murders of indigenous women proved that while the number of murders was higher, as with every other race, the vast majority of the murderers were someone the victim was close to. Mostly family. There was no one targeting indigenous women. Also, the amount of insolved indigenous murders were on part with that of any other spe ific group. Then there was the issue of the missing. It actually turned out that there was not a disproportionate number of indigenous women missing. Indigenous men on the other hand... they do go missibg at a rate much higher than any other group.

Everytime someone brought any of these issues up they were either removed or "resigned" from the inquiry. that is why it took so much longer than it was supposed to. Itv took a while to find people who would look at the facts and come to the predetermined outcome, it is genocide. Mean while indigenous women continued to be murdered at a much higher rate, indigenous men continued to disappear, and money that could of gone to solve the issue was used to cover it up and force through an agenda that the most ardent liberals couldn't support when presented with the facts.

That is systemic racism. Letting people die or disappear so you can claim the koral high ground but a actually accomplish nothing.
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  #127  
Old 07-04-2020, 09:08 PM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
 
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Originally Posted by EZM View Post
Meant to use systemic instead of systematic not sure why I didn't catch that - sorry.
Not a prob, big Ease! Easy enough to mix the two up on occasion, and it could perhaps be argued that often where one exists, the other does as well. I really don't like the term of systemic racism very much. I like dealing with tangibles, and using that term tends to obfuscate real issues. It's trying to prove feelings.

My bigger disagreement with your post was bringing other unrelated issues into it. I won't deny that there are discriminations based on pretty much anything. Not having the right shoes in school, talking differently, being too intelligent, or not enough, chubby, too tall, too short, etc. The whitest people on the planet, namely the Irish were also discriminated against.

I don't believe automatically assuming race is the correct response.

I remember when the first Sikh became an RCMP with his turban incorporated into the uniform. I was in favor. Not everyone was, and rather than reading it as racist, much of it was based on uniform. Which I didn't see as a big issue.
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  #128  
Old 07-04-2020, 09:25 PM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Mulehahn View Post
The most glaring, and terrible, example of systemic racism was the MMIW Inquiry. It will literally get people killed. Now I am not talking about a special inquiry into a problem baser on race as First Nations do face specific problems.

What I am talking about is the burying of evidence and refusal to acknowledge what the real problem is. The study into known murders of indigenous women proved that while the number of murders was higher, as with every other race, the vast majority of the murderers were someone the victim was close to. Mostly family. There was no one targeting indigenous women. Also, the amount of insolved indigenous murders were on part with that of any other spe ific group. Then there was the issue of the missing. It actually turned out that there was not a disproportionate number of indigenous women missing. Indigenous men on the other hand... they do go missibg at a rate much higher than any other group.

Everytime someone brought any of these issues up they were either removed or "resigned" from the inquiry. that is why it took so much longer than it was supposed to. Itv took a while to find people who would look at the facts and come to the predetermined outcome, it is genocide. Mean while indigenous women continued to be murdered at a much higher rate, indigenous men continued to disappear, and money that could of gone to solve the issue was used to cover it up and force through an agenda that the most ardent liberals couldn't support when presented with the facts.

That is systemic racism. Letting people die or disappear so you can claim the koral high ground but a actually accomplish nothing.
I agree. Virtue signaling became more important than tackling real issues or truthful speaking.

After the "trail of tears" movement gained momentum, it readily became apparent that it wasn't widespread police apathy that was to blame for native women's disappearance. Looking deeper into it, didn't take genius levels of deduction to see that LE was chasing virtual smoke. Many of the young ladies, were of an age of naivety, or had substance abuse problems, and/or led high risk lifestyles.

A white girl I went to high school with very nearly went missing as well. She was a strong, tough girl, and escaped from the vehicle. Unfortunately, getting in a vehicle on long deserted stretches of road can mean total disappearance for more vulnerable members of society. Travelling alone, no witnesses, and millions of acres of bush, along a dark road isn't conducive to getting found.
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  #129  
Old 07-04-2020, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Tactical Lever View Post
Not a prob, big Ease! Easy enough to mix the two up on occasion, and it could perhaps be argued that often where one exists, the other does as well. I really don't like the term of systemic racism very much. I like dealing with tangibles, and using that term tends to obfuscate real issues. It's trying to prove feelings.

My bigger disagreement with your post was bringing other unrelated issues into it. I won't deny that there are discriminations based on pretty much anything. Not having the right shoes in school, talking differently, being too intelligent, or not enough, chubby, too tall, too short, etc. The whitest people on the planet, namely the Irish were also discriminated against.

I don't believe automatically assuming race is the correct response.

I remember when the first Sikh became an RCMP with his turban incorporated into the uniform. I was in favor. Not everyone was, and rather than reading it as racist, much of it was based on uniform. Which I didn't see as a big issue.
The Sikh issue was one, I personally could see both sides of it - tradition versus religious freedom. It was a complicated issue, very heated for many, but we did the right thing in the end.

I think many people hate the term systemic racism because we will always have people who use excuses of sexism, racism and other discrimination as a defense for criminal behavior or stupidity.

If someone is a criminal and gets put in jail, or wrestles for a cops gun and gets shot, guess what .... I don't care if they are white, black, brown, red or green .... they got what they had coming to them.

It's people like this that HURT the legitimacy of the movement for us to resolve these institutional discriminatory practices (or systemic racism).

My guess is that's where half of the people who are not wanting to admit (or don't see) this issue as real are coming from.
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  #130  
Old 07-04-2020, 11:19 PM
Glion Glion is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EZM View Post
The Sikh issue was one, I personally could see both sides of it - tradition versus religious freedom. It was a complicated issue, very heated for many, but we did the right thing in the end.

I think many people hate the term systemic racism because we will always have people who use excuses of sexism, racism and other discrimination as a defense for criminal behavior or stupidity.

If someone is a criminal and gets put in jail, or wrestles for a cops gun and gets shot, guess what .... I don't care if they are white, black, brown, red or green .... they got what they had coming to them.

It's people like this that HURT the legitimacy of the movement for us to resolve these institutional discriminatory practices (or systemic racism).

My guess is that's where half of the people who are not wanting to admit (or don't see) this issue as real are coming from.
I know you have pointed to the welfare system before but what other specific institution discriminatory practices are you referring to. IE ones that specifically target a race to hold them back or discriminate against them
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  #131  
Old 07-05-2020, 01:16 AM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EZM View Post
The Sikh issue was one, I personally could see both sides of it - tradition versus religious freedom. It was a complicated issue, very heated for many, but we did the right thing in the end.

I think many people hate the term systemic racism because we will always have people who use excuses of sexism, racism and other discrimination as a defense for criminal behavior or stupidity.

If someone is a criminal and gets put in jail, or wrestles for a cops gun and gets shot, guess what .... I don't care if they are white, black, brown, red or green .... they got what they had coming to them.

It's people like this that HURT the legitimacy of the movement for us to resolve these institutional discriminatory practices (or systemic racism).

My guess is that's where half of the people who are not wanting to admit (or don't see) this issue as real are coming from.
Good post, and I agree much with it.

The matching color turban as well as the Mounty crest was an elegant solution, IMO.

That's part of the reason I dislike the term. Impossible to prove, and statistics do not seem to back it up. I'm open to listening however.

Very much seems like an individual problem; which is my way of saying that racism does exist, or at least some bias. But no on an ingrained society wide problem.
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