The Dolly vs. Bull Trout debate

[tacklerunner]

Didn't want to hijack Slivers thread any further so here goes:

I have very few pics of dollies/bulls in BC. Usually save the pics for bows. But I did find one.

I'm not a biologist nor do I know anything about genetics so I can just share the history with you as I have learned it. I was born in the West Kootenays as were my parents, my grand parents and my great grand parents. My great-great grand parents emmigrated to the area and settled there. My parents' generation built most of the dams. My generation continues to do so.

I've heard many stories of my great-great grand parents and great grand parents catching monster salmon in the Columbia and it's tributaries such as the Kootenay river. Then they started building dams. Until then all species to my knowledge had the freedom to swim and spawn up the Columbia and into the interior of BC.

This is how I understand it.
Kokanee are landlocked sockeye salmon.
Gerrard Rainbows are landlocked steelhead.
And I understand Dollies also became landlocked.
Bull trout are native to the area.
To me this seems logical.

I've fished Kootenay lake, Arrow lake, Slocan lake, Duncan Lake, Duncan river, Lardeau, Kootenay river, Columbia river, Slocan river and all of it tributaries along with dozens of other lakes and streams in the area for just under 40 years now. I've caught and seen 100's if not 1000's on dollies/bulls during this time. I also grew up referring to ALL bulls and dollies as 'dollies' but over the last 20 years I've become more educated and noticed a significant difference between the 2 (in my logical opinion).

This is a photo of a "dolly" my brother caught in Kootenay lake mid-July this year. We've gotten hundreds that look like this along with obvious looking bull trout as well.

The head is more salmonoid-like and does not dominate the body. This fish is a bit slender but some we have caught are just hogs like the gerrards or a salmon... definitely not snake like like the bullies I am used to seeing both in AB & BC. Maybe this not a dolly in it's true sense as it has not seen salt water since being land locked.

Perhaps someone should have re-named this landlocked species like they did for the Kokanee and Gerrard. To me they're not bullies. What do you think???

[slivers86]

Awesome history there tr - thanks for diverting the debate away! I'm not sure because I've never seen a dolly irl but nice lookin fish!

[Speckle55]

The complex of chars composed of Arctic char (S. alpinus), Dolly Varden (S. malma) and bull trout (S. confluentus) is a closely related group and difficult to distinguish from external characteristics. Due to past misidentification of species in various locales and lack of scientific knowledge, much of the available literature on these species is either misleading or incorrect, and there is still some disagreement among scientists on their distribution.

Quote .. International Game Fish Assocation

in BC.... Lake Trout are called Char in some local areas which they are members of the char family but not S alpinus

btw nice fish ..mmmm good eats

David

[muledeerking]

Nice female Bull trout TR.

[fishman]

What i have read about the differences is mostly size as the dollys dont get as big as the bull trout( i know there is very small coloration differences to) kinda like the sauger and the walleye but easier to tell the diff between the sauger and walleye compared to the dollys and the bull trout.........ok question do you find dollys and bull trout in the same water shed......what i was lead to believe as the dollys are more native to the pacific ocean flow ways and the bull trout are more native to the arctic ocean flow ways

[tacklerunner]

Originally Posted by muledeerking

Nice female Bull trout TR.

No wonder. I only seem to attract the females.

[muledeerking]

Originally Posted by tacklerunner

No wonder. I only seem to attract the females.

lol. Good one. Nice fish though.

[Off in the Bushes]

.

[EZM]

Sounds like, unless someone sends a biologist out there, we will never really know. I've caught a few "suspects" with a smaller head in Kootenay Lake but with brighter colors pink and yellow spots) and then minutes later caught a similar fish with a longer bigger head. I too, like muledeerking, figured it was a male/female thing. I dunno.

I was expecting to see an electric blue and snow white dolly in your picture like the BC regs - lol - just teasing. Sometimes reg pictures do more harm than good.

Interesting.

I am also curious to learn if there could be sturgeon in there, i marked something on my fish finder really deep and really big that was definitely a moving fish (or ogopogo).

[BeeGuy]

Taylor 2001

This is a good paper which discusses the genetic diversity of the 2 species in their known NW north american ranges, including hybridization, and comments on earlier morphological studies.

The "Discussion" is particularly good and is not entirely scientific jargon. They also hypothesize on how the species have evolved, and dispersed (colonization of different watersheds) via marine and inland waterways.

The "Discussion" starting on page 414 is worth reading to get an idea of what the deal is with these 2 species.

[BeeGuy]

This paper by Hammond is a much easier read and while it focuses on Bull Trout, it has a brief introduction and several references on the emergence of the Dolly Varden and a discrete and unique species.

Following this article you can learn as much as you care to about the taxonomy and systematics of these interesting charr.

If anyone does follow this lead and has any questions about the science, jargon etc please feel free to post any questions and I'll clarify the issues.

There are a few critical terms which are needed to be known in order to follow the conversation, such as sympatry and parapatry.

[fish gunner]

I noticed a difference with char on the big lake, TR makes a good point with a possible landlocked dolly population.
my conversation with biologists suggests the ugly big head (bulls) are fish that spend their lives in the creek mouths something to do with absorbed nitrogen affecting the fishes growth. the small head (dollies) streamlined fish spend their lives free swimming the lake feeding on the red fish much like the gerard's. EMZ yes sturgeon inhabit the big lake most are found at the far ends of the lake and out from the light house to the west arm.
it is my thoughts that bows and bull a fair bit larger than have been caught, lurk in the deeps and have some interesting sightings of very large fish on two occasions. much larger than the 26 and 23 lb fish I have handled. we have also hooked up with 275'-300' out on the down riggers actual depth abt 200'-250' given speed . the locations of your large soundings would seperate the likelyhood or not of sturgeon. I believe its bows or bulls to give the fishgeeks nightmares.

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by tacklerunner

Perhaps someone should have re-named this landlocked species like they did for the Kokanee and Gerrard. To me they're not bullies. What do you think???

Part of the problem is that the difference in range between the 2 is not saltwater vs land locked.

Although S.malma (Dollies) have a more coastal distribution, both species do range along the coast and both venture into saltwater (anadromous). There are certainly anadromous hybrids as well.

Colouration and spotting can not be used to distinguish the 2 species as some have suggested.

These 2 species were only recently distinguished from one another, in 1978. Features and measurements of the skull were used originally and in the 90's until more recently, genetic data has backed up that original morphological study.

There is now a fair number of molecular (genetic-DNA) studies which have been published on these 2 species (plus S.alpinus in some cases), and it has helped greatly in understanding their evolutionary histories.

Of course, there is still tons to learn (given Harper continues to fund universities and fisheries departments).

What it boils down to for the laymen fisherperson is, call it what you want.

Just enjoy the genetic diversity that exists among and between these fish.

[Alberta Bigbore]

The Dolly vs. Bull Trout debate?

There is no debate, they are both tasty on the bbq wrapped in bacon

[EZM]

Originally Posted by Alberta Bigbore

The Dolly vs. Bull Trout debate?

There is no debate, they are both tasty on the bbq wrapped in bacon

Anything wrapped in bacon has to be good.............

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by Alberta Bigbore

The Dolly vs. Bull Trout debate?

There is no debate, they are both tasty on the bbq wrapped in bacon

Is the bacon to disguise the taste?

I'd probably eat dirt wrapped in bacon...

[Alberta Bigbore]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

Is the bacon to disguise the taste?

I'd probably eat dirt wrapped in bacon...

lol... I think bacon is a food group of its own.

[greylynx]

Hey Alberta Big Bore.

Right on with the bacon.

Use it to catch the char, and then use it to cook the char.


P.S. nice Savage decal... I hope they gave it to you.

[albertadeer]

Originally Posted by greylynx

Hey Alberta Big Bore.

Right on with the bacon.

Use it to catch the char, and then use it to cook the char.


P.S. nice Savage decal... I hope they gave it to you.

No char cant resist bacon

[Riverbc]

Until the early 1990s, Dolly Varden and Bull Trout were considered the same fish. Visually they are very hard to tell apart. The big difference between the two is Dolly Varden are anadromous. In otherwards they go to the ocean, but return to freshwater to spawn. They are pretty much coastal fish, and don't appear in streams to far from the ocean, Their distribution does not extend far inland, although they are found in the headwaters of the Fraser, Liard, and Peace river systems. They extend farthest inland in the Skeena and Fraser river systems. They are not found in the Columbia river system.

[BeeGuy]

If you go back and read some of my posts you'll find some interesting reads/leads.

[Riverbc]

I have...good stuff. I was just sharing some info from BC freshwater biologists...just more so on their distribution.
One thing I found interesting in that report...

"Bull trout are thought to have originated in the Columbia
River basin (Behnke 1980), and dispersal via inland watershed connections occurred throughout the interior of British
Columbia and north to the Yukon and east of the Rocky
Mountains to the North and South Saskatchewan River systems."

Good reading..thanks for the link.

[Bigdad013]

My largest Bull out of the Shuswap