Trap Creek NO TRESPASSING Signs

[ntsougri]

Hello. I just returned from a drive on Highway 40 west of Longview and noticed 3 new no trespassing signs on Trap Creek. These large signs threaten to prosecute you if you trespass. They even say all books and websites are invalid so you cannot access the creek via the owners adjacent land. He even boarded up the gate with a smaller sign so there is no more access.
What a shame. Such a nice area to hike and catch and release some small Cutthroats. Soon there will be nowhere to fish except on public lands.
What are your thoughts?

[chickensashimi]

Originally Posted by ntsougri

Hello. I just returned from a drive on Highway 40 west of Longview and noticed 3 new no trespassing signs on Trap Creek. These large signs threaten to prosecute you if you trespass. They even say all books and websites are invalid so you cannot access the creek via the owners adjacent land. He even boarded up the gate with a smaller sign so there is no more access.
What a shame. Such a nice area to hike and catch and release some small Cutthroats. Soon there will be nowhere to fish except on public lands.
What are your thoughts?

Would like “strangers” cuttin through your yard?

[matt1984]

Originally Posted by chickensashimi

Would like “strangers” cuttin through your yard?

Not really a yard. The landowners/leaseholders pushed to have the road shutdown years ago, but have been allowing foot and bike access. Sad to see yet another access point to Kananaskis closed. Unless you're friends or family of course.

Would be nice if there was a push to open some of those roads back up that access this part of k-country. They have all become private access points to crown land.

[Dewey Cox]

I have seen the mess left behind at fishing spots.
I get it.
I wouldn't want to spending my free time cleaning up after people either.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by ntsougri

Hello. I just returned from a drive on Highway 40 west of Longview and noticed 3 new no trespassing signs on Trap Creek. These large signs threaten to prosecute you if you trespass. They even say all books and websites are invalid so you cannot access the creek via the owners adjacent land. He even boarded up the gate with a smaller sign so there is no more access.
What a shame. Such a nice area to hike and catch and release some small Cutthroats. Soon there will be nowhere to fish except on public lands.
What are your thoughts?

Is the property in question deeded or lease needs to be asked.

[Remps17]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Is the property in question deeded or lease needs to be asked.

If I recall its deeded. If it was lease I could see and argument.

[dalewig]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Is the property in question deeded or lease needs to be asked.

The first half mile of the flat creek road is private , then it turns to lease. Had been hoping to bike this road with the wife again , beautiful country.

This road is a good access point to quite a bit of hunting territory to, sucks if they aren’t allowing foot / bike access anymore. There is another road just north that is also blocked off by private land , similar situation.

[Jayhad]

I am defiant with land owners that block stream access, but only when they are blocking legal access, this doesn't appear to be the case.

You could walk in, in the creek below the high water mark.

If people were cutting through my property to get to water I'd be choked as well.

[Ishpah]

Any dip**** could have posted those signs. Even one of you.
If it doesn't have the name of the leaseholder/landowner and a means of contacting them, then it has no validity as far as I am concerned.

[Scottmisfits]

Originally Posted by Ishpah

Any dip**** could have posted those signs. Even one of you.
If it doesn't have the name of the leaseholder/landowner and a means of contacting them, then it has no validity as far as I am concerned.

Except if it is in fact deeded land and then you would be trespassing.

[58thecat]

People just have had enough I guess with the crap people leave behind...only takes a few slobs to wreck it for all others.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

People just have had enough I guess with the crap people leave behind...only takes a few slobs to wreck it for all others.

It seems the outdoor sports draw more than their fair share of slobs. Some of the antics I see from hunters and the litter left by fishermen is down right embarrassing. It makes us all look poor. But I guess we have to stick together, right?

[LKILR]

Them signs have been there for a few years now. Why don’t you grow a pair and go ask Depaoli if they don’t mind you using the road to access the Crown lease that you need to go through to go fishing. There’s a few different lease holders you need to contact before you access Trapp creek. People that go biking and fishing in there without knowledge of who’s lease they are on and not contacting prior is one reason it is so difficult to get in there.

[SNAPFisher]

Originally Posted by Ishpah

Any dip**** could have posted those signs. Even one of you.
If it doesn't have the name of the leaseholder/landowner and a means of contacting them, then it has no validity as far as I am concerned.

It is probably not. Most dip****s wouldn't even bother with that much effort. I don`t know this particular area or owner. But in my view, trespassing scum are trespassing scum. I`ve dealt enough with it on my own land. And won!

[SNAPFisher]

Originally Posted by LKILR

Them signs have been there for a few years now. Why don’t you grow a pair and go ask Depaoli if they don’t mind you using the road to access the Crown lease that you need to go through to go fishing. There’s a few different lease holders you need to contact before you access Trapp creek. People that go biking and fishing in there without knowledge of who’s lease they are on and not contacting prior is one reason it is so difficult to get in there.

Nice! Great callout.

[fishpro]

Well it sucks, but they are allowed to refuse access to their land. However, as mentioned in another post, if you can access the stream at the bridge and stay within the high water mark you will be fully within your legal rights.

[highwood]

Contact the landowner. As my name suggests, I've fished everything in that area many times. Use respect, be nice, worse case you are denied access. There is plenty of water in that area far superior to Trap Creek.

[Sooner]

Originally Posted by SNAPFisher

It is probably not. Most dip****s wouldn't even bother with that much effort. I don`t know this particular area or owner. But in my view, trespassing scum are trespassing scum. I`ve dealt enough with it on my own land. And won!

There is always the entitled ones that look for the loop hole before looking for the land owner.

I just met a rancher this week. The stories he told of trespassers was unreal. Funny thing, he is an outdoors man and hunter. If the trespassers would have knocked on his door first and asked, most would be hunting his land and with his help.

[ntsougri]

We have asked the landowner (Depaoli) for permission to access Trap Creek last year and 2017 and both times he said nobody is allowed on his land. So we simply fished elsewhere.
It appears that if you want to hike or fish there you will have to walk up the creek within it's high water marks until you get to the lease road. It would be smart to find out who the leaseholders are and contact them to make sure you are allowed to access and use the road. It's disappointing to see reduced access but there are better places to hike, bike or fish in that area.

[Dielbo]

Couple of things:

• whether those signs are legit enough to stand up in court is debatable. Could definitely see a judge saying they lack specificity and information that may cause doubt about their authenticity.
  
  though the likelihood of being charged and convicted for trespass, if you are simply fishing, is almost slim and none, the potential conflict with landowners is a different story. I know of some absolutely psychopathic owners on Jumpingpound and Dogpound, who have no understanding of the actual law(s), but a lot of good that will do if they shoot you.
  

[SNAPFisher]

Originally Posted by Sooner

There is always the entitled ones that look for the loop hole before looking for the land owner.

I just met a rancher this week. The stories he told of trespassers was unreal. Funny thing, he is an outdoors man and hunter. If the trespassers would have knocked on his door first and asked, most would be hunting his land and with his help.

So true. The one person I do allow on my land, and yes it has creek running through it, is about 25 years old. Caught him and his girlfriend and dog about two summers ago. I think I had him worried for about 5 minutes. We got to talking though and he was very apologetic. Now he texts me every so often when he is in the area to let me know. The one and only one person I allow on. Why? Because he is respectful and asks. No problem. And, I know when he is there. Again, awesome.

The stories I have... I've confronted I'm sure close to a thousand different people over the years. I have a database of the trouble ones I keep. One of the worst that comes to back to me, cop that showed up had to pull his gun out as this guy would just not settle down and was yelling at the cop, he was cuffed and hauled away. All in front of his two kids. What a "hero" to look up to hey.

Most end up as they should with a better understanding on the other party. But some don't get it.

[crawfish]

Originally Posted by Dielbo

Couple of things:

• whether those signs are legit enough to stand up in court is debatable. Could definitely see a judge saying they lack specificity and information that may cause doubt about their authenticity.
  
  though the likelihood of being charged and convicted for trespass, if you are simply fishing, is almost slim and none, the potential conflict with landowners is a different story. I know of some absolutely psychopathic owners on Jumpingpound and Dogpound, who have no understanding of the actual law(s), but a lot of good that will do if they shoot you.
  

Just a heads up in case you don’t already know, the land titles along jumpingpound are so old they actually own the creek as well and the usual rules of stay below high water don’t apply. I know quite a few people have had issues along there and learned that the hard way.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by Dielbo

Couple of things:

• whether those signs are legit enough to stand up in court is debatable. Could definitely see a judge saying they lack specificity and information that may cause doubt about their authenticity.
  
  though the likelihood of being charged and convicted for trespass, if you are simply fishing, is almost slim and none, the potential conflict with landowners is a different story. I know of some absolutely psychopathic owners on Jumpingpound and Dogpound, who have no understanding of the actual law(s), but a lot of good that will do if they shoot you.
  

Deeded land doesn't need to be posted for a landowner to charge you with trespassing, let alone have the proper signage. You don't know what the hell you are talking about.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

It seems the outdoor sports draw more than their fair share of slobs. Some of the antics I see from hunters and the litter left by fishermen is down right embarrassing. It makes us all look poor. But I guess we have to stick together, right?

We stick together but in doing that report the bad apples....makes it easier on The ones that care.

[lannie]

They are sick of fly fisherman and hunters who are pigs. I was just picking up garbage in the ditches at the east hillcrest bridge in the pass. Pig fly fishers. Beer cans galore.....Parking in driveways???and then going fishing??? Absolutely no surprise access is getting to zero. Just wondering why it is taking so long?

[Dielbo]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Deeded land doesn't need to be posted for a landowner to charge you with trespassing, let alone have the proper signage. You don't know what the hell you are talking about.

First off, the landowner can't "charge you with trespassing". That decision is up to a peace officer and crown prosecutor. The landowner has absolutely no say in that decision.

If a peace officer attends, they would assess whether any provincial law has been breached. If proceedings are under the " Trespass to Premises Act," RSA 2000, c-T-7, then NOTICE is always required.


Trespass

2(1) No person shall trespass on premises with respect to which that person has had notice not to trespass.

(2) For the purposes of subsection (1), notice not to trespass may be given to a person

(a) orally or in writing by the owner or an authorized representative of the owner, or

(b) by signs visibly displayed

(i) at each of the entrances normally used by persons to enter the premises, and

(ii) in the case of premises referred to in section 1(c)(ii), at all fence corners or, if there is no fence, at each corner of the premises.


There is another act called the Petty Trespass Act, RSA c-P11, which also requires NOTICE except for certain instances defined in subsection 2(2), mainly cultivated farmlands and/or that are fully enclosed. However, there are also public use easements to consider for accessing streams and rivers. Further, parts of that act have been found unconstitutional and it is rarely used anymore.

The law surrounding property and water rights in AB is complex, as there are multiple acts (Surface Rights, Water Rights, Indigenous treaties, etc) which deal with specific issues and are open to judicial interpretation.

In any event, in each case under the Petty Trespass Act, the question as to whether a parcel of land is " fully enclosed" or "under cultivation" is a finding of fact for each judge in each case. If the judge finds the land does not fit within subsection 2(2) then they must give the public adequate notice, ordinarily in the form of proper signage.

Further, whether the land is "deeded" is irrelevant for the purposes of both the Petty Trespass Act and Trespass to Premises Act. The only requirement is to be the owner or lawful occupier. The only exception being Crown Land, whether trained or leased or permitted, etc. The Petty Trespass Act does not apply to Crown land.

There is a tremendous amount of misinformation floating around about these matters. Always has been in my experience. Most lawyers do not even know these laws very well.

Note: I often see or hear of people referring to some form of special deeded land where the owner retains rights to stream beds. Those are exceedingly rare and only arise from former Hudson Bay Company land. I know that claims made by persons relating to areas on Jumpingpound and Dogpound have been investigated at Land Titles and in both instances the landowners were wrong. If one really wanted to fish there, they could get a copy of the title to pack along and use it to settle any dispute when a peace officer arrives. That said, if some nutcase assaults you or kills you, I'm not sure being in the right legally will be much consolation.

Further note: always clean up after yourselves on public or PRI vote land. "Leave no trace" should be standard operating procedure. Also, seek to obtain permission wherever any issue could arise. Most landowners are fine with it if you are respectful. They only want to keep out the *******s who litter and tear up their land.

[Dielbo]

Originally Posted by mccrawfish

Just a heads up in case you don’t already know, the land titles along jumpingpound are so old they actually own the creek as well and the usual rules of stay below high water don’t apply. I know quite a few people have had issues along there and learned that the hard way.

Been down this road before. This was back in the 90's and involved a section of Jumpingpound. One of my colleagues pulled copies of title and it was the usual where no ownership of streams beds or minerals was conferred. To the best of my knowledge, he still fishes there and keeps a copy of title in his vest. He's also more conflict driven than I am. I'd rather avoid the whole scene as it's frankly not that great of fishing there anyways.

If you really want to know, pay a visit to the Land Titles Office and check it out. Only land in sections 8 and 26 (3/4 of, unless it's the NE corner) of townships is former HBC land, which is the only land in AB where this is applicable.

[ÜberFly]

I have pulled their land title, And NO THEY [Copithorn's] DON'T at least in this particular section of the JP)!! I don't fishing there any more as there are better places to fish on the JP. If I were to fish there, I would definitely bring their title and tell them to get bent and call the RCMP!

P

Originally Posted by mccrawfish

Just a heads up in case you don’t already know, the land titles along jumpingpound are so old they actually own the creek as well and the usual rules of stay below high water don’t apply. I know quite a few people have had issues along there and learned that the hard way.

[SNAPFisher]

Originally Posted by Dielbo

First off, the landowner can't "charge you with trespassing". That decision is up to a peace officer and crown prosecutor. The landowner has absolutely no say in that decision.

If a peace officer attends, they would assess whether any provincial law has been breached. If proceedings are under the " Trespass to Premises Act," RSA 2000, c-T-7, then NOTICE is always required.

Legally, yes. 100%.
What I've always asked the RCMP is a call to the owner to let them know. That is, when I have a license#. That one call is usually enough and gets the point across.

Looks like you are of the same attitude as others on here, which is great. Thanks.

The other thing myself and neighbours did that was helpful was call the county enforcement, MLA and RCMP for several meetings to discuss the problem. We also brought the RCMP onto the land so they could see where misuse was occurring and where people would park, etc. We get regular weekly patrols now from RCMP when they have the time. But they haven't missed a week in a couple of years now. They catch quite a few I don't know about which is great. The "database" I keep is track those that return after a warning. Those are the ones that RCMP has charged pretty much 100%.

I have great neighbors too!

[Dielbo]

Originally Posted by SNAPFisher

Legally, yes. 100%.
What I've always asked the RCMP is a call to the owner to let them know. That is, when I have a license#. That one call is usually enough and gets the point across.

Looks like you are of the same attitude as others on here, which is great. Thanks.

The other thing myself and neighbours did that was helpful was call the county enforcement, MLA and RCMP for several meetings to discuss the problem. We also brought the RCMP onto the land so they could see where misuse was occurring and where people would park, etc. We get regular weekly patrols now from RCMP when they have the time. But they haven't missed a week in a couple of years now. They catch quite a few I don't know about which is great. The "database" I keep is track those that return after a warning. Those are the ones that RCMP has charged pretty much 100%.

I have great neighbors too!

Thanks. I was lucky in that my Dad taught me to respect the resource and the land where you hunt and fish. Now that my kids are older, I usually have one or both with me when fishing and I want to set the same example. We were at Pine Coulee Reservoir last month and it was depressing to see so much garbage laying around. Someone had tossed their packaging (from lures) right on the ground, chip bags and monofilament was everywhere. The latter is not only garbage but it's dangerous for wildlife. Fish and birds can get tangled in it and it's also not good for them to ingest any. We picked up all of it when we left but I was annoyed that someone was so inconsiderate.

When dealing with property owners you always have to keep in mind they are the ones doing you the favor if they allow you on their land. So you got to look out for it and try and leave it as good or better than when you arrived. Pick up garbage. Let them know if you spot a hole in a fence or predators near their livestock, etc. Park where they tell you. Tread lightly.

Anyways, where do you live SNAPfisher so I can come over and fish? Lol. Cheers.