Cooper Rifles are Custom Rifles?

[Big Thumper]

Originally Posted by noneck180

Yeah..its a Custom from Remington because the chambering may not be in there regular lineup,, for Cooper its not the case thus making Cooper non custom. You maybe able to order fancy wood ...or differnet metal..but that still doesn't change the fact that it produced in a high volume shop.

With" high volume" being about 8-12 rifles a day, five days a week.

[Big Racks]

Originally Posted by Big Thumper

With" high volume" being about 8-12 rifles a day, five days a week.

I think most of us associate a custom rifle as being a "one off" rifle, hand made to specs. Regardless of volume (aside from one offs), if a rifle is made in production and is catalogued then it isn't a custom rifle in my opinion. I wouldn't consider special ordered upgrades to a production rifle as a custom job either. If a manufacturer offers a production rifle with a lumber upgrade, then it's just that, a production rifle with nicer wood.

If I take a plain jane Rem 700 BDL, SPS, or whatever and slap a Bell & Carlson stock on it - does it cease being a production gun? Have I just crossed the line into owning a "custom" rifle? What if the stock I put it into isn't aftermarket, but rather another Rem 700 factory stock, maybe I switched from wood to laminate or synthetic. The rifle is no longer unaltered from the factory so is it custom now?

What if I have a brake installed? What if I have it bedded and the trigger tuned? The possibilities are endless and I guess we have our own ideas as to what constitutes a custom rifle and just what line can or can't be crossed before it ceases being "production".

That being said, my Excalibur is NOT a custom rifle. The retailer may have said "send me 10 Excaliburs in .280 Rem" but that differs not a whit from him saying "send me 50 BDL-DM's in .30-06". Different volume absolutely, as that will depend on how much demand there is and how many he feels he can move, but it in no way constitutes a custom order.

[Pudelpointer]

So what are we saying here? A "custom shop" is only one that takes 2 years to get you a rifle? Only produces 12 rifles a year? Please define "custom" for me.

At Cooper the orders are filled as they come in, nothing is (or was?) being built on spec. A dealer sent an order that was model and cartridge specific. The first bunch to show up at WSS included a number of Ackley's as some customers had shown an interest. Those guns were ordered in that configuration just as they now seem to be ordering fairly standard calibres in standard configurations - because that is what most consumers seem to want.

AFAIK, anyone can still send an order form to Cooper and have them build a rifle exactly how we want it: 19 1/2" fluted stainless barrel in claro walnut in 218 Bee. Yes there are restrictions - no 48" barrels or straight grip synthetic stocks - but there are at almost any 'smiths, there are limitations on what you can get.

You guys are a finicky bunch. So "custom" relies on limiting your financial future? You must be borderline broke, i.e. a one-man-gun-maker, to qualify? You can not list what options you are willing / set-up to do? You have to wait with baited breath for a consumer to show up at your door (website) and ask for a rifle that has 5 options out of 23 that you can not, or are not willing to do?

As for "custom" vs. "factory" rifles, it is the same as handguns used in IPSC or IDPA, there are "open" categories where shooters can spend as little or as lot as they like, but as soon as ONE SINGLE THING is altered on the "off the shelf" model, it is now in a different division. It is done to keep things fair in a competition, i.e. there is no advantage to the guy with the deepest pocket books and everyone can afford to compete.

You may not think of Cooper as a "custom shop" by your narrow definition, but that is what it is in the eyes of the competition organizers.

[gitrdun]

I was about to ask the something along the same line as the above post. What if I took a cheapo "junkyard dog" Stevens 200 in 7mm-08. Dropped it in a Boyd's laminate thumbhole stock which I personally pillared and bedded. Honed the trigger and rolled my own ammo for? Is this having strayed too far from factory? I suppose one should truly find out the details of the restrictions before driving two hours....but still.

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

I was about to ask the something along the same line as the above post. What if I took a cheapo "junkyard dog" Stevens 200 in 7mm-08. Dropped it in a Boyd's laminate thumbhole stock which I personally pillared and bedded. Honed the trigger and rolled my own ammo for? Is this having strayed too far from factory? I suppose one should truly find out the details of the restrictions before driving two hours....but still.

I was told my factory LVSF that has been reamed to 7-08AI and put in a McMillan, had a new bolt shroud and firing pin installed, trigger tuned, been bedded and blasted and metal milled out was perfectly acceptable for the shoot...

I had corresponded via email and kept all copies for future reference. So I would say that your situation would be the same....I think?

[Big Racks]

Just out of curiousity, a bunch of guys got together over on CGN and expressed enough interest in a run of Ruger #1' in .303 British that Ruger did a limited run of them, Prophet River has been handling the importing and paperwork necessary for this to come to fruition. Are these then Custom rifles? They're basically an off the rack Ruger #1 but in a custom chambering in a small batch and ordered special.

Everyone has their own idea of what custom entails. Evidently the good folks at this particular shoot decided their definition was whatever they had never had the good fortune to own and that may shoot better than their 700's and M70's .

[flint]

Originally Posted by whitetail Junkie

My Father went to a Shooting tournament Today and it was hunting Rifles only.No Target Rifles\No custom Rifles\No Heavy Barrels and only Big game hunting cartridges allowed.He Brought his 280AI cooper classic Rifle and they would'nt let him enter because they said that it's a custom Rifle,not a Factory Rifle.Are cooper Rifles Custom rifles? Thats the First time that Dad and I have heard of Cooper's being custom? Whats do you guys thinK? Elk11?

It was the 5th time I attended the Frank Leffingwell Benchrest Shooting Match. The rule's are: no custom rifles, no heavey barrels, no benchrest cartridges (ie: 6PPC, 6 BR, 7 BR, etc), caliber no small than .243, the scope must remain on 6 power, two piece shooting rests only, total weight of firearm cannot exceed 10 pounds. I met all of the said rules except that one of the organizers stated that my gun is over qualified, that it is custom and I can't use it in the match. Of course I explained to him everything under the sun that it is not a custom gun. Anyway, long story short I couldn't use it. My cooper is a tack driver as most of them all, but I know the shooters and their guns at this match and my Cooper cannot compete with these other guns. Many times I have shot 5 shot groups under and a little over half an inch.....my best so far is .422. The other guns at the match shoot 1 to 1 1/2 inch groups at 300 yards. There are three guns at this match that are beyond extreme accuracy. All of them are 243 winchesters that are chambered in a Sako, Tikka and a Remington. Anyway,I did not want to make a fuss and I didn't. I guess I will purchase a Tikka off the rack in a 243 and use it for next year. Truely, I have no hard feelings.....I'm a hunter and not a shooter, moreover, I love my little Cooper and will hunt with it this fall.

[whitetail Junkie]

Originally Posted by flint

It was the 5th time I attended the Frank Leffingwell Benchrest Shooting Match. The rule's are: no custom rifles, no heavey barrels, no benchrest cartridges (ie: 6PPC, 6 BR, 7 BR, etc), caliber no small than .243, the scope must remain on 6 power, two piece shooting rests only, total weight of firearm cannot exceed 10 pounds. I met all of the said rules except that one of the organizers stated that my gun is over qualified, that it is custom and I can't use it in the match. Of course I explained to him everything under the sun that it is not a custom gun. Anyway, long story short I couldn't use it. My cooper is a tack driver as most of them all, but I know the shooters and their guns at this match and my Cooper cannot compete with these other guns. Many times I have shot 5 shot groups under and a little over half an inch.....my best so far is .422. The other guns at the match shoot 1 to 1 1/2 inch groups at 300 yards. There are three guns at this match that are beyond extreme accuracy. All of them are 243 winchesters that are chambered in a Sako, Tikka and a Remington. Anyway,I did not want to make a fuss and I didn't. I guess I will purchase a Tikka off the rack in a 243 and use it for next year. Truely, I have no hard feelings.....I'm a hunter and not a shooter, moreover, I love my little Cooper and will hunt with it this fall.

That Tikka that shot 5 rounds under 1 1\2" at 300 yards in unreal.well so is the guy shooting it(Ace).i'll shoot all my life and I'll never get that kind of group at 300yards,thats unreal.I guess you will have to take the 240 wby there next Year,however its a got a Euromark "Custom" stock on it,so who knows

[Pudelpointer]

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

I was told my factory LVSF that has been reamed to 7-08AI and put in a McMillan, had a new bolt shroud and firing pin installed, trigger tuned, been bedded and blasted and metal milled out was perfectly acceptable for the shoot...

I had corresponded via email and kept all copies for future reference. So I would say that your situation would be the same....I think?

Why they would let you use that rifle Rack and wouldn't let Flint use his Cooper does not make any sense to me, but I am not the organizer of the match. I would suggest that the organizer posts a list somewhere of what rifles would be considered "custom" and what modifications would make a rifle not eligible. To me Rack's rifle being reamed to 7-08 (non factory chambering) and the McMillan stock should put it in the same boat as Flint's Cooper.

Strange going's on down there.

[flint]

Originally Posted by whitetail Junkie

That Tikka that shot 5 rounds under 1 1\2" at 300 yards in unreal.well so is the guy shooting it(Ace).i'll shoot all my life and I'll never get that kind of group at 300yards,thats unreal.I guess you will have to take the 240 wby there next Year,however its a got a Euromark "Custom" stock on it,so who knows

The best group at 300 yards was 1.008 of an inch shot from the Tikka. The fourth bullet went into the second hole and the 5th bullet went into the third hole. Best grouping that I personally witnessed. I know that the gun did all of the work because that shooter stated that he rarely shoots, plus the gun belongs to an old man and not him. I think I'm going shopping for a Tikka at Christmas chambered for a 243 winchester. Merry Christmas Flint!!!

[elkhunter11]

I would in no way consider not being allowed to shoot in an event with such clueless organizers a loss.Probably the most common scope magnification in use by big game hunters is the 3x9,yet you aren't allowed to use 9x.Set a minimum caliber,a total weight for rifle and scope,two piece rests,and let the people shoot.

[noneck180]

Originally Posted by Big Thumper

With" high volume" being about 8-12 rifles a day, five days a week.

I don't no how many they manf..but yes they are a high volume company..not a gunsmith..that has to get parts to make a custom rife..

To me even a printed Rem..or rechambered, re-stocked,, trigger done, etc...is not a custom gun.

[Big Thumper]

Originally Posted by noneck180

I don't no how many they manf..but yes they are a high volume company..not a gunsmith..that has to get parts to make a custom rife..

To me even a printed Rem..or rechambered, re-stocked,, trigger done, etc...is not a custom gun.

8-12 is what Cooper told me when i visited...

[noneck180]

Well then Clay must have a years worth of production then.. lol

[Big Thumper]

Originally Posted by noneck180

Well then Clay must have a years worth of production then.. lol

or a month's worth anyway. Cooper told me he sells anout 12% of all they make.

[duceman]

just out of curiosity flint, what kind of groups did you get with the cooper that day, did the organizers have reason to worry at the end of the day?