Mule Deer Allocations

[7magtime]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

I think resident hunters here are 100% greedy and jealous

A vast majority only think about themselves and could care less about anyone else

Pretty much sums up why we have a thread bashing outfitters who have access to statistically, close to 10% of the resource across the province. Resident hunters and draw applications numbers have increased like 60-70% but the problem still has to be the 10% that the outfitters get? The root cause of longer draw times isnt outfitters

And how many outfitting companies have started in Alberta over the same time period you mention the possible 60-70% increase for residents?? There was many new outfits popping up around the province during the oil boom just like the resident hunters increased.

All a person has to do is look on APOS’s website to see how many outfitters operating in Alberta are based out of the US or other provinces?

I’ll never be okay with my kids having to wait 5-10 years for their first draw in some WMU’s while outfitters have 50-150% of the yearly allocations currently for those same WMU’s and out of country hunters get the majority of the tags for those WMU’s(often it’s the same US hunters coming up and getting those tags every year).
If that makes me a greedy resident, so be it…

[7magtime]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The average resident does moan, when he has to wait in line, while non residents skip the lineup entirely. If everyone had to wait in line, the residents wouldn't be as upset. Given that residents pay the taxes that pay the biologists, and the staff that manages our wildlife, and the staff that enforces our regulations, the residents have a reason to moan.

100% agree Elk, well said.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The average resident does moan, when he has to wait in line, while non residents skip the lineup entirely. If everyone had to wait in line, the residents wouldn't be as upset. Given that residents pay the taxes that pay the biologists, and the staff that manages our wildlife, and the staff that enforces our regulations, the residents have a reason to moan.

To be honest, I bet that a non resident contributes more than a resident $ wise
A vast amount we pay in provincial tax does to healthcare and education. I bet the average person only pays $20 towards wildlife out of our taxes
So you add that to the $1/draw that we pay. And the $40 for a tag and $30 for a wildlife certificate. Joe public really doesn’t contribute much

[hayseed]

....

[OL_JR]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

Many more land owners are tired of Joe Average than outfitters has been my experience. Do you really believe those who do not allow access is because of the outfitting industry ?



Actually there is a lot of truth in the above statement. The average resident feels entitled, wants everything with minimal effort and ****es and moans when they have to wait in line.

I'm not against outfitting but we need to start being more selective on where it is allowed. When I have to wait in line 10 years to draw a moose tag and a non resident can buy their way to the front of line it becomes a matter of principal. I don't friggin care how much impact it makes on the draw system.

Frankly any animal on draw for residents shouldn't be available for outfitter allocations.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by 7magtime

And how many outfitting companies have started in Alberta over the same time period you mention the possible 60-70% increase for residents?? There was many new outfits popping up around the province during the oil boom just like the resident hunters increased.

All a person has to do is look on APOS’s website to see how many outfitters operating in Alberta are based out of the US or other provinces?

I’ll never be okay with my kids having to wait 5-10 years for their first draw in some WMU’s while outfitters have 50-150% of the yearly allocations currently for those same WMU’s and out of country hunters get the majority of the tags for those WMU’s(often it’s the same US hunters coming up and getting those tags every year).
If that makes me a greedy resident, so be it…

What zone are we talking about?

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by OL_JR

I'm not against outfitting but we need to start being more selective on where it is allowed. When I have to wait in line 10 years to draw a moose tag and a non resident can buy their way to the front of line it becomes a matter of principal. I don't friggin care how much impact it makes on the draw system.

Frankly any animal on draw for residents shouldn't be available for outfitter allocations.

What I think people are missing is the fact that if we remove outfitting in Alberta, your resident wait times will remain unchanged for the most part.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

What I think people are missing is the fact that if we remove outfitting in Alberta, your resident wait times will remain unchanged for the most part.

Exactly, worried more about the 5 tags that outfitters get than the 300 more people that apply in the same area

[OL_JR]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

What I think people are missing is the fact that if we remove outfitting in Alberta, your resident wait times will remain unchanged for the most part.

I'm not missing that at all. Like I said it's a matter of principle. As far as I'm concerned once an animal is on draw we don't have the surplus to allocate to the outfitter pool. Don't care if draw wait times do not change or change very little.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

To be honest, I bet that a non resident contributes more than a resident $ wise
A vast amount we pay in provincial tax does to healthcare and education. I bet the average person only pays $20 towards wildlife out of our taxes
So you add that to the $1/draw that we pay. And the $40 for a tag and $30 for a wildlife certificate. Joe public really doesn’t contribute much

Take the total amount of provincial taxes that all Alberta resident hunters pay, including the fuel tax taxes , hotel taxes etc, add in the total amount of hunting/fishing licenses they buy, and compare it to how much non residents actually contribute to the Alberta government, not to the outfitter, but to the government. And of course residents spend far more money in Alberta, over an entire year than non residents do, which creates income for all kinds of Alberta businesses, that all pay taxes, and have employees that pay taxes. And when you add up all of those revenues that residents contribute directly and indiredirectly, it soon becomes obvious, that it is the residents that are paying for the salaries, vehicles, buildings and other expenses that the people that manage our wildlife resources incur. So given that the residents pay for all of this, they should come first, they should not have to wait years to draw a tag that a non resident can have every year if he chooses to.

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by OL_JR

I'm not missing that at all. Like I said it's a matter of principle. As far as I'm concerned once an animal is on draw we don't have the surplus to allocate to the outfitter pool. Don't care if draw wait times do not change or change very little.

What if private land owners shared your principles ? Ah yes, paid hunting or we all fight for a square inch on crown lands...

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

What if private land owners shared your principles ? Ah yes, paid hunting or we all fight for a square inch on crown lands...

And that is actually one of the reasons that some land owners won't allow outfitters access, more than one landowner has told me that if they can't make money off of their land by allowing hunting, then nobody is going to make money off of their land through hunting.

[7magtime]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

What zone are we talking about?

Just looking at antlered moose, these were the 2021 allocations per WMU.

https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/de23...eason-2021.pdf

Below is total antlered moose resident tags % to outfitter tags % per WMU for the 2021 season:

412-6 to 9 (outfitters 150% of tags)
414-15 to 8 (outfitters 53% of tags)
417-3 to 8 (outfitters 260% of tags)
420-5 to 8 (outfitters 160% of tags)
422-5 to 6 (outfitters 120% of tags)
426-3 to 7 (outfitters 233% of tags)
428-5 to 6 (outfitters 120% of tags)
430-5 to 7 (outfitters 140% of tags)
432-5 to 4 (outfitters 80% of tags)
434-5 to 10 (outfitters 200% of tags)
436-5 to 10 (outfitters 200% of tags)
437-10 to 20 (outfitters 200% of tags)
438-15 to 23 (outfitters 153% of tags)
439-5 to 3 (outfitters 60% of tags)
440-15 to 8 (outfitters 53% of tags)
441-15 to 19 (outfitters 127% of tags)

This is just for the mountain WMU’s which shows how lopsided the current system is for resident to outfitter allocations and that it’s nowhere near the supposed 10% for outfitters. The 300’s WMU’s are not skewed as much but many are still over the so called “10% allowed”.

If I’m interpreting these numbers incorrectly, please enlighten me on where the mistake is….

As well, please explain how the draw times for residents in these WMU’s would not decrease if the outfitter allocations for the WMU’s above were cut back to the required 10% for the 2022 season?

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by 7magtime

Just looking at antlered moose, these were the 2021 allocations per WMU.

https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/de23...eason-2021.pdf

Below is total antlered moose resident tags % to outfitter tags % per WMU for the 2021 season:

412-6 to 9 (outfitters 150% of tags)
414-15 to 8 (outfitters 53% of tags)
417-3 to 8 (outfitters 260% of tags)
420-5 to 8 (outfitters 160% of tags)
422-5 to 6 (outfitters 120% of tags)
426-3 to 7 (outfitters 233% of tags)
428-5 to 6 (outfitters 120% of tags)
430-5 to 7 (outfitters 140% of tags)
432-5 to 4 (outfitters 80% of tags)
434-5 to 10 (outfitters 200% of tags)
436-5 to 10 (outfitters 200% of tags)
437-10 to 20 (outfitters 200% of tags)
438-15 to 23 (outfitters 153% of tags)
439-5 to 3 (outfitters 60% of tags)
440-15 to 8 (outfitters 53% of tags)
441-15 to 19 (outfitters 127% of tags)

This is just for the mountain WMU’s which shows how lopsided the current system is for resident to outfitter allocations and that it’s nowhere near the supposed 10% for outfitters. The 300’s WMU’s are not skewed as much but many are still over the so called “10% allowed”.

If I’m interpreting these numbers incorrectly, please enlighten me on where the mistake is….

As well, please explain how the draw times for residents in these WMU’s would not decrease if the outfitter allocations for the WMU’s above were cut back to the required 10% for the 2022 season?

Is that with the carryover from Covid, or a normal year ?

Because they are certainly two very different things !

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

So resident hunters are greedy, jealous..... anything else, you're doing great.

Not all of them, likely only a small percentage actually……

Kind of like those bad apples out there poaching…..

Hmmmmm

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Take the total amount of provincial taxes that all Alberta resident hunters pay, including the fuel tax taxes , hotel taxes etc, add in the total amount of hunting/fishing licenses they buy, and compare it to how much non residents actually contribute to the Alberta government, not to the outfitter, but to the government. And of course residents spend far more money in Alberta, over an entire year than non residents do, which creates income for all kinds of Alberta businesses, that all pay taxes, and have employees that pay taxes. And when you add up all of those revenues that residents contribute directly and indiredirectly, it soon becomes obvious, that it is the residents that are paying for the salaries, vehicles, buildings and other expenses that the people that manage our wildlife resources incur. So given that the residents pay for all of this, they should come first, they should not have to wait years to draw a tag that a non resident can have every year if he chooses to.

You’re forgetting one significant thing in your calculation. All those taxes are still paid by resident hunters whether they wait 9.1 or 9.2 years for a draw.

If it’s purely a principle thing that nobody should be allowed to outfit for any animal, if any resident has to wait to hunt due to draws, then you really need to ask yourself what your motivation is?

Perhaps one of the motivators starts with a “J”or a “G”……

[7magtime]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Is that with the carryover from Covid, or a normal year ?

Because they are certainly two very different things !

As the link above shows, that was for last season which was the first year of the increased outfitter Covid relief allocations.

Actually, as you can see in the link almost 1/2 of the WMU’s I listed above had little increase for outfitter allocations given before Covid.

Regardless, the allocation numbers pre-Covid are still way above the supposed 10% allowed for outfitter allocations in those WMU’s….Agree?

[fishnguy]

Jealous of what? I don’t get it? And what is the greed here?

Let’s be even more generous and double the outfitter tags. I mean the residents would only have to wait 9.1 years instead of 9.2, according to that logic, right? What is the difference? That way a few more guys will be able to make substandard (according to some) living in this province.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

You’re forgetting one significant thing in your calculation. All those taxes are still paid by resident hunters whether they wait 9.1 or 9.2 years for a draw.

If it’s purely a principle thing that nobody should be allowed to outfit for any animal, if any resident has to wait to hunt due to draws, then you really need to ask yourself what your motivation is?

Perhaps one of the motivators starts with a “J”or a “G”……

The point is that we are still paying it, as residents, we pay the bills, so we shouldn't be second class citizens.

As to motivation, some of us have principles, we don't support paying money to jump the line for hunting, anymore than we would support paying money to jump the line for medical surgeries, transplants, or anything else that is financed with our tax dollars.

But I suppose some people would accuse use of "J" or "G" if we complained because someone could buy their way past waiting lists for surgeries or transplants, here in Alberta?

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by fishnguy

Jealous of what? I don’t get it? And what is the greed here?

Let’s be even more generous and double the outfitter tags. I mean the residents would only have to wait 9.1 years instead of 9.2, according to that logic, right? What is the difference? That way a few more guys will be able to make substandard (according to some) living in this province.

The greed part is having 9 of the 10 balls on the playground, and yelling and screaming like a child because you want the 10th ball too.

In actuality it’s more like 98 of the 100 balls overall in the province. Outfitters only get about 2% of the allocated tags overall.

I don’t want it doubled, and it some cases where the numbers are currently off it should be adjusted. But that’s entirely different then wanting every allocation in the province on draw eliminated.

I’m not sure who’s making a substandard living but perhaps they should revamp their business model. Covid years aside of course

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The point is that we are still paying it, as residents, we pay the bills, so we shouldn't be second class citizens.

As to motivation, some of us have principles, we don't support paying money to jump the line for hunting, anymore than we would support paying money to jump the line for medical surgeries, transplants, or anything else that is financed with our tax dollars.

But I suppose some people would accuse use of "J" or "G" if we complained because someone could buy their way past waiting lists for surgeries or transplants, here in Alberta?

Who’s jumping to the front of the line? Forget their line, it’s not the same as the one you or me is standing in.

The same as the line we get in to hunt where they come from isn’t the same as their line either.

You want non residents in your draws instead of going hunting with allocation tags ? I sure don’t.

[ram crazy]

Could follow Saskatchewan's lead. Eliminate non resident Mule Deer, Antelope,
Moose and Sheep tags here in Alberta.

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

In actuality it’s more like 98 of the 100 balls overall in the province. Outfitters only get about 2% of the allocated tags overall.

Does that math include antlerless/supplemental tags in the equation? I know that BC always uses the number in the equation but really 'allocated tags' is a different conversation when talking about tags that have any 'value'. I honestly dont know if thats part of the equation or not (not being confrontational), but certainly needs to be considered when doing the math when talking about demand.

[huntwat]

When an opportunity is taken from an Albertan to give to a non-resident, something is wrong.
I’m all for allowing as many over the counter tags as wanted. But not draw. If that makes me greedy so be it.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by huntwat

When an opportunity is taken from an Albertan to give to a non-resident, something is wrong.
I’m all for allowing as many over the counter tags as wanted. But not draw. If that makes me greedy so be it.

What does it take to be an alberta?

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Who’s jumping to the front of the line? Forget their line, it’s not the same as the one you or me is standing in.

The same as the line we get in to hunt where they come from isn’t the same as their line either.

You want non residents in your draws instead of going hunting with allocation tags ? I sure don’t.

It is the same line, because it is for the same animals, it's just that the non residents start at the front of the line, in front of the residents.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by 7magtime

Just looking at antlered moose, these were the 2021 allocations per WMU.

https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/de23...eason-2021.pdf

Below is total antlered moose resident tags % to outfitter tags % per WMU for the 2021 season:

412-6 to 9 (outfitters 150% of tags)
414-15 to 8 (outfitters 53% of tags)
417-3 to 8 (outfitters 260% of tags)
420-5 to 8 (outfitters 160% of tags)
422-5 to 6 (outfitters 120% of tags)
426-3 to 7 (outfitters 233% of tags)
428-5 to 6 (outfitters 120% of tags)
430-5 to 7 (outfitters 140% of tags)
432-5 to 4 (outfitters 80% of tags)
434-5 to 10 (outfitters 200% of tags)
436-5 to 10 (outfitters 200% of tags)
437-10 to 20 (outfitters 200% of tags)
438-15 to 23 (outfitters 153% of tags)
439-5 to 3 (outfitters 60% of tags)
440-15 to 8 (outfitters 53% of tags)
441-15 to 19 (outfitters 127% of tags)

This is just for the mountain WMU’s which shows how lopsided the current system is for resident to outfitter allocations and that it’s nowhere near the supposed 10% for outfitters. The 300’s WMU’s are not skewed as much but many are still over the so called “10% allowed”.

If I’m interpreting these numbers incorrectly, please enlighten me on where the mistake is….

As well, please explain how the draw times for residents in these WMU’s would not decrease if the outfitter allocations for the WMU’s above were cut back to the required 10% for the 2022 season?

You need to look at the zone your listed
There is a few where you were 100% successful in drawing a tag of you were a 0
How many undersubscribed tags should residents have before we allow a non resident to chase the same animal?

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

What does it take to be an alberta?

Really? Whatever the regs say. SMH.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

That is exactly the point, it isn't the same line, the non resident line is in front of the resident line, and that is the problem. And both lines are hunting the same animals so the harvest effects both lines.

Actually it’s like grocery shopping

If you want to pay, just like a non resident with a guide
Your in the express line

If you want don’t want to pay, and are willing to wait and go for $40
Your in this line
Unfortunately non residents (Canadians) are also allowed to be in the same line as you. Same line as every aunt, uncle, cousin, wife, buddy’s dog who’s never held a rifle before also, but wants to get in on all this “cheap meat”

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by huntwat

Really? Whatever the regs say. SMH.

It takes about 15min to be an alberta resident
Do you think that they should be treated the same as you?