Bighorn Public land to Parks land proposal

[slough shark]

Originally Posted by crazy_davey

Yes, already done.

Well crap that one snuck up on me, I missed a bunch of stuff it appears since I work out of town. If you don’t mind me asking what are the boundaries and restrictions hat they put on, I had heard they had been planning on doing what they did to the castle.

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by Abe89

So to summarize,
There is information out there but it’s fairly convoluted and we have to do our due diligence and go looking for it...although I’ve still found its hard to find and very one sided. government has not made a huge effort to make information known and is pushing their agenda regardless.

While there might be some disagreements on certain issues (which might just be differences of interpretation) there is at least agreement of there being a lot of apprehension/fear about what this might actually mean about our lifestyles

So the question I’m spinning my wheels on...how do we fight this tooth and nail? Letters and phone calls to area reps? I’ve never known a petition to do anything...I’m really drawing blanks. Sure the agenda might get pushed anyway but I’d at least like to have a slim fighting hope. Any ideas? Connections in high places? Have I only found out about this too late to do much? It’s often said we need to band together...how? How do we move to action beyond this forum?
As for me I will start with emails letters and phone calls. Heck I’ll even connect with Randy Newberg. I bet he has ideas.

I spend my valuable time in those woods (as do many on here)...my valuable time is worth giving to keep spending my time in those woods.

Lastly; I’m blown away. This conversation has been incredibly respectful and engaging, even in its disagreements. I for one have learned a lot. I’m very sorry about the castle, I simply never really understood what was/has happened.


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Try as hard as you want to fight!

Cal’s post was bang on, it’s a done deal! Do what you want but you won’t change it.

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by slough shark

Well crap that one snuck up on me, I missed a bunch of stuff it appears since I work out of town. If you don’t mind me asking what are the boundaries and restrictions hat they put on, I had heard they had been planning on doing what they did to the castle.

It has already been brought up many times in this thread. If you want links, google is your friend.

It’s been in motion since before May long weekend 2018.

[BuckCuller]

They use public land user’s public land damage to their advantage.
It’s simple the more they restrict public land users to a smaller area it creates more damage in that certain area which only makes the user’s look bad.
Then they can take more away which creates even more damage so that validates taking even more access away.
It all starts with the most visible user’s such as ATV’s and random camping.
They know exactly what they are doing.
When all reasonable access is taken away that equates to less hunters, less fishermen and less campers.
Then the numbers to finish the job to make it all national park is on there side.
They increase infrastructure and tourism in these area’s to make green money and produce lower income government jobs.
Y2Y and other organizations have been planning this for a very long time. They have been collecting funds, smooth talking government officials, working on gaining public land users and related organizations trust.
All they needed was the right government and yes THEY HAVE IT.
Say good by to the West Country because it ain’t ours anymore.

[Joe Black]

Originally Posted by landowner

I believe you can still “primitive “ camp in the wild land portion of the Castle park. Last meeting I was at with Park planners I was told the huts are being re-examined. They will be managed by the Alpine club , not sure if hunters will be allowed to use them . Firearms might not be allowed in them.

Huts are a go. I’ve seen tender requests come out for construction. They want to issue contracts before the election (hmmmm, wonder why,,,,)

Yes don’t worry. I’m sure they already had a “how do we keep hunters out of the huts” meeting. Yes, public huts built by public money, but only for a certain public demographic.

Welcome to elitism as it’s best.

[Jayhad]

I see a lot of comments in this thread about getting the NDP out.... remember the UCP just announced they want to sell off a bundle of our public land.... we hunters are truly becoming political eunuchs.

I AM NOT SAYING THE NDP IS SOLUTION, lets just think about who we support and who is supporting us.

[Dmedlicott1]

Originally Posted by crazy_davey

Try as hard as you want to fight!

Cal’s post was bang on, it’s a done deal! Do what you want but you won’t change it.

Sad this is how we are going to have everything taken from us.... kinda makes you impressed by what France is doing. They don't want a carbon tax and aren't going to just lay down and take it.

[Abe89]

I know theres a sense of defeatism around this already, but heres the survey link. Might as well try.
https://extranet.gov.ab.ca/opinio6/s...10199857391030


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[slough shark]

At this point it may be worthwhile lobbying the ucp to see what they plan on doing about all these zones and parks to see if we can get our mountains back. That is perhaps one of the most significant enough pieces of thier platform to convince some people to get usage back

[Freddy]

Ndp / Aep playbook

[Joe Black]

Best post to date explaining the NDP strategy on closing access to public land.

[mad mountain mike]

Originally Posted by landowner

I believe you can still “primitive “ camp in the wild land portion of the Castle park. Last meeting I was at with Park planners I was told the huts are being re-examined. They will be managed by the Alpine club , not sure if hunters will be allowed to use them . Firearms might not be allowed in them.

You might be able to primitive camp now but it will end. Back pack 15km into the Kananaskis back country only to camp in the mandatory camp sites with 30 other sites.

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Extremely concerning...

[outdoorsman12b]

Originally Posted by Bub

Not to stir the pot, rather an observation: OHV's and backpack hunting have nothing to do with one another.

Not true. Some areas you can OHV in now a leg of the journey and then hike in rest of way. It is the next best thing to horses which many of us don't have. Access will be reduced unless trails are designated.

[urban rednek]

Originally Posted by Douglas N

There are a lot of Green Decoy groups out there that look like they support hunting, fishing, etc, but have other agendas.

They also like to insert moles to monitor relevant discussions by non-member organizations. If the "sheep" show any inclination to organize against the Greens agenda prior to implementation, the infiltraitors initiate seemingly innocent discussion using subversive statements that are intended to cause confusion and dissension. Keeps people off balance and unsure of their position.
Go look up the BHA podcast thread from last year for further details.

As for the Bighorn Public Land Proposal? It is going to happen as fast as the existing government can push it through; the survey is a waste of time, our opinion doesn't matter.

[Douglas N]

Originally Posted by urban rednek

They also like to insert moles to monitor relevant discussions by non-member organizations. If the "sheep" show any inclination to organize against the Greens agenda prior to implementation, the infiltraitors initiate seemingly innocent discussion using subversive statements that are intended to cause confusion and dissension. Keeps people off balance and unsure of their position.
Go look up the BHA podcast thread from last year for further details.

As for the Bighorn Public Land Proposal? It is going to happen as fast as the existing government can push it through; the survey is a waste of time, our opinion doesn't matter.

Don’t give up yet. Once it’s gone, it may never be back and you will kick yourselves later. The statements earlier by some folks about access to our Backcountry by the ultra fit or rich is very valid. I’m one of those guys that NEEDS to use an OHV to get to places where I can stage and walk from. My knee currently won’t likely allow me to backpack a full camp in 30 kms anymore. I can do 10 though, so quadding in part way keeps my dreams to continue mountain hunting alive. I’m working on getting that fixed, but it’s not a given. I’ve always been against this proposal, but it sure opened up my eyes to what we are up against as we age. Our health is fickle and one injury will change your perspective on how bullet proof you really are. Not many folks have the resources to keep or have access to a string of horses- they aren’t cheap and it’s not that simple. Don’t forget our seniors and disabled- who is fighting for them? Should they have to hire an outfitter or helicopter to access the Backcountry?

From an environmental protection standpoint, this is totally unnecessary. The current designated trails in the PLUZ are very restrictive now, all we need is more enforcement to ensure there is not abuse. Don’t fall for the talk about this being the next Willmore. That’s not what their end game is. At best, it would be “Edmonton’s Kananskis”. I for one don’t want to see this area commerciallized to that extent. If you complete the survey, you will get a feel for what they are targeting.

Email your MLA, Jason Kenny, Shannon Phillips and keep the emails. Attend the “consultation” meetings, and for sure fill out the survey! The data will always be there whether the current government uses it or not. At that very least it will be of use for the UCP if they are elected in 2019, and will be key data in the case of a court challenge. I believe there is a precedent now for a challenge. The Northern Gateway Pipeline was stalled due to lack of consultation with stakeholders (Indigenous groups). This process is more rushed and very obviously excluding some key stakeholders. This one affects many industries and many user groups now and the motivation and backing exists for a court challenge to this. It’s well beyond restricting OHV use now.

On Facebook, there are two groups dedicated to sharing info on the current situation. Look up “This is my Nordegg- Advocating for the continued Public Land Use Zone”, and “Coalition of Albertans for Pubkic Land Access- CAPLA”. Check them out.

Our opponents also have Facebook pages, seek them out and share your views with them too.

[Joe Black]

your opinions on their facebook pages will last about 10 minutes, be deleted, then you will be blocked from posting anything further.

bin der don dat

just another example of who we are dealing with

if you don't believe me, go to shanon phillips facebook page and try to post anything that does not fall in line with her propaganda

[Abe89]

Originally Posted by Douglas N

Don’t give up yet. Once it’s gone, it may never be back and you will kick yourselves later. The statements earlier by some folks about access to our Backcountry by the ultra fit or rich is very valid. I’m one of those guys that NEEDS to use an OHV to get to places where I can stage and walk from. My knee currently won’t likely allow me to backpack a full camp in 30 kms anymore. I can do 10 though, so quadding in part way keeps my dreams to continue mountain hunting alive. I’m working on getting that fixed, but it’s not a given. I’ve always been against this proposal, but it sure opened up my eyes to what we are up against as we age. Our health is fickle and one injury will change your perspective on how bullet proof you really are. Not many folks have the resources to keep or have access to a string of horses- they aren’t cheap and it’s not that simple. Don’t forget our seniors and disabled- who is fighting for them? Should they have to hire an outfitter or helicopter to access the Backcountry?



From an environmental protection standpoint, this is totally unnecessary. The current designated trails in the PLUZ are very restrictive now, all we need is more enforcement to ensure there is not abuse. Don’t fall for the talk about this being the next Willmore. That’s not what their end game is. At best, it would be “Edmonton’s Kananskis”. I for one don’t want to see this area commerciallized to that extent. If you complete the survey, you will get a feel for what they are targeting.



Email your MLA, Jason Kenny, Shannon Phillips and keep the emails. Attend the “consultation” meetings, and for sure fill out the survey! The data will always be there whether the current government uses it or not. At that very least it will be of use for the UCP if they are elected in 2019, and will be key data in the case of a court challenge. I believe there is a precedent now for a challenge. The Northern Gateway Pipeline was stalled due to lack of consultation with stakeholders (Indigenous groups). This process is more rushed and very obviously excluding some key stakeholders. This one affects many industries and many user groups now and the motivation and backing exists for a court challenge to this. It’s well beyond restricting OHV use now.



On Facebook, there are two groups dedicated to sharing info on the current situation. Look up “This is my Nordegg- Advocating for the continued Public Land Use Zone”, and “Coalition of Albertans for Pubkic Land Access- CAPLA”. Check them out.



Our opponents also have Facebook pages, seek them out and share your views with them too.

I agree. This was helpful, thanks.
Reading through the survey was certainly eye opening for me...Ya-Ha tinda into a provincial park for instance, Complete with lodges, cabins, and bed and breakfast. As well as Camping limited to designated areas. That is just the ya-ha...... should I mention the zip line proposed in another area? There are a lot of provincial park and wildland proposals that really threaten the wild life styles many of us enjoy in these areas.
For a proposal all wrapped up in environmental language there is an awful lot in the survey about infrastructure to encourage tourism.
Don’t get me wrong I am all for tourism within reason, and people enjoying the outdoors. But part of what makes the wilderness so inviting is it requires a certain amount of skill and expertise and the freedom to get away. Sounds like in a lot of these areas getting away would be limited to back country cabins and guided tours. Sounds like it would simply abuse The areas where tourism is encouraged by sheer numbers, and limit the freedom to truly enjoy the wild. Not to mention place extra pressure on emergency services with all the inexperienced, the world is my amusement park, people who would now have access to places they may be shouldn’t have access to without having the right experience or expertise. They can now just drive up to it and step off with their tennis shoes. Just read some of the stories fish and game deal with in Banff; not to mention the sheer number of problem animals they have to put down because by and large people don’t obey the law to not feed wild life on the roads.
This isn’t the only area that this government has quietly made decisions behind closed doors and shoved down our throat’s, but as far as I can tell this one could really change places that have a lot of history as being a proud an wild Alberta.
Anyway that’s my rant. Check out the survey, email, make a fuss. If nothing else at least we didn’t just lie down



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[Abe89]

Be fore warned the survey is fairly one sided and very carefully worded. Make sure you read it with a certain amount of interpretation and for thought as to what the consequences of these decisions could really mean


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[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by Abe89

I agree. This was helpful, thanks.
Reading through the survey was certainly eye opening for me...Ya-Ha tinda into a provincial park for instance, Complete with lodges, cabins, and bed and breakfast. As well as Camping limited to designated areas. That is just the ya-ha...... should I mention the zip line proposed in another area? There are a lot of provincial park and wildland proposals that really threaten the wild life styles many of us enjoy in these areas.
For a proposal all wrapped up in environmental language there is an awful lot in the survey about infrastructure to encourage tourism.
Don’t get me wrong I am all for tourism within reason, and people enjoying the outdoors. But part of what makes the wilderness so inviting is it requires a certain amount of skill and expertise and the freedom to get away. Sounds like in a lot of these areas getting away would be limited to back country cabins and guided tours. Sounds like it would simply abuse The areas where tourism is encouraged by sheer numbers, and limit the freedom to truly enjoy the wild. Not to mention place extra pressure on emergency services with all the inexperienced, the world is my amusement park, people who would now have access to places they may be shouldn’t have access to without having the right experience or expertise. They can now just drive up to it and step off with their tennis shoes. Just read some of the stories fish and game deal with in Banff; not to mention the sheer number of problem animals they have to put down because by and large people don’t obey the law to not feed wild life on the roads.
This isn’t the only area that this government has quietly made decisions behind closed doors and shoved down our throat’s, but as far as I can tell this one could really change places that have a lot of history as being a proud an wild Alberta.
Anyway that’s my rant. Check out the survey, email, make a fuss. If nothing else at least we didn’t just lie down



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Were you this concerned when the castle was the big issue? Porcupines and Livingstone?

[dicknormal]

Originally Posted by crazy_davey

Were you this concerned when the castle was the big issue? Porcupines and Livingstone?

There in lays one of the biggest problems. It was only the Castle so it didn't effect anybody else's outdoor pursuits north of the Castle. Next lets take a chunk of south central east slopes. Wait the guys in the south say sucks to be you because you never supported us fully and the north are not effected yet so fight it yourself. Now with only a very small bunch at the top of the Alberta Fish and Game on our side they are being held back from voicing concern for the Alberta outdoor recreation community by the majority of the upper crust within the organization that doesn't want to jeopardise their positions or the relations they have with the Alberta Government.

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by Cal R.

The other day was a consult meeting which was a mixed stakeholder meeting, primarily the Bighorn Heritage ATV Society and the Nordegg OHV society, both have members on the Bighorn Standing Committee as Summer Motorized representatives and are volunteers extraordinaire.
We were told by AEP staff yesterday that surveys are difficult to do in order to fairly represent the views of Albertan’s. The RAC survey was just to get a feel for the mood of Albertans and will not be considered as input. Essentially it was explained to be just practice and doesn’t count.
So all the good folks ( and I mean everyone, for and against) that took the time to answer the surveys and participate in the input process, in good faith, had their time wasted and trust stomped on again. All our input is not being considered valid.
The Plan consult and development is as advertised to continue through to the end of 2019. AEP staff did say that at the end of February or at any time for that matter, the Minister can do an Order in Council to put any part or the entire plan in place.

Maybe some of you need to read this again. Cal is being totally honest and knows more than probably 98% of members here what is and has been happening when it goes to closures of our public lands.

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by dicknormal

There in lays one of the biggest problems. It was only the Castle so it didn't effect anybody else's outdoor pursuits north of the Castle. Next lets take a chunk of south central east slopes. Wait the guys in the south say sucks to be you because you never supported us fully and the north are not effected yet so fight it yourself. Now with only a very small bunch at the top of the Alberta Fish and Game on our side they are being held back from voicing concern for the Alberta outdoor recreation community by the majority of the upper crust within the organization that doesn't want to jeopardise their positions or the relations they have with the Alberta Government.

Was not my point but nice try...

[59whiskers]

Right now things are not crystal clear. A huge tax paying former user group of the east slopes is being kicked out for good. More anouncements soon from NDP after the Bighorn survey. They are not letting the cat out of the bag yet on the new groups that will be running the show in the future.

[Abe89]

Originally Posted by crazy_davey

Were you this concerned when the castle was the big issue? Porcupines and Livingstone?

I’m sorry but I fail to see why this should be relevant. Whether I was or was not, I am now. Does what happened in the past suck? Absolutely. If it could be changed would I join to do it? Yes. Does what happened and my level of involvement with the castle change my involvement now? No. Be thankful I care, whether I’ve come late or early. Use it, move on.


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[Klondike]

Came across this on a facebook group. https://www.facebook.com/groups/462816510578276/

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by Abe89

I’m sorry but I fail to see why this should be relevant. Whether I was or was not, I am now. Does what happened in the past suck? Absolutely. If it could be changed would I join to do it? Yes. Does what happened and my level of involvement with the castle change my involvement now? No. Be thankful I care, whether I’ve come late or early. Use it, move on.


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Nice to know you care now, now it’s affecting a place you enjoy. The Bighorn area has been a serious issue for a very long time. Great time to jump in and rally the troops! You are twenty years too late... I was at meetings with Cal when all this crap started.

Read my above quote of Cals post. He isn’t bull*****ting you or anyone else. Take all the surveys you want, it isn’t going to help or make a difference. Period!

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by Abe89

I’m sorry but I fail to see why this should be relevant.

And yes, it’s very relevant, you started to care once it affected an area you frequent, a place you didn’t spend time(Castle/Livingstone) you didn’t give a $H!t.

[Cervidae]

Thanks to Cal and Davy, and everyone else who attended the meetings and advocated for access, and for what it's worth I was against Castle and Livingstone, but my input was as effective as anyone else's.

Without getting my tinfoil suit and helmet on, if you follow the money trail there is a considerable economic element of interest to the foreign energy companies that fund Y2Y if can make a corridor from Yellowstone to Yukon of "protected area" It would significantly limit development of resource transport (say a pipeline for example), if you think our resources are bottlenecked and devalued now, wait until the foreign interest pushes this through. (Under the Guise of protecting nature..lol)
Y2Y and the foreign funders are using our government against themselves, and the they don't even seem to know it.
If anyone believes this is intended to preserve their ability to enjoy these areas, they are sadly mistaken.

[Denali Dave]

Wow, just seeing this now. I won’t comment much on this until I know more of the facts regarding land dispositions. That map is a huge area though. I fully agree with the above post about foreign funding and the Y2Y objective. More research is definitely required. Apologies to those that fought and lost the Castle area, I did not hear about this happening. I’m also not jumping on any band wagon hear but I do intend on making an attempt to have my voice heard on the Bighorn proposal. Sick and tired of having to defend my position in life against funded activist groups who seem to be telling our governments what to do. First, we need to look at our resources, who’s backing us? How can we become one and have a presence in the matter? Has anybody started a petition against this??