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02-21-2019, 06:59 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,570
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The Railroad Thread.
I am sick and tired of member’s who are ill informed bashing the railroad.
Every time a train derails and spill’s just a little bit of anything members on here go wild.
“Unsafe” “horrible for the environment”
Untrue.
When a train derail’s and a “spill” occur’s everyone jump’s All over it,
And I’m tired of reading it.
When a train derails, the response time is unprecedented,
When a pipeline ruptures it can continue to pump harmful chemicals or oil into the environment for weeks or even months before it’s discovered.
Just for anyone’s knowledge. The railroad is just as if not safer than pipelines.
If you have any railroad related questions feel free to chime in
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IT'S TIMES LIKE THESE...
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02-21-2019, 07:11 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NW Calgary
Posts: 2,785
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I get what you are saying but how many people have died due to a pipeline leak? We can go round and round on safety arguments forever. Rather than an us vs them they both are viable options at a certain price point. Railways are best used for items that can’t be shipped in a pipe. Waste of energy compared to a pipeline. Grain, vehicles as other solid items belong on rail. Liquids belong in pipes.
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02-21-2019, 07:16 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 6,952
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewM
Railways are best used for items that can’t be shipped in a pipe. Waste of energy compared to a pipeline. Grain, vehicles as other solid items belong on rail. Liquids belong in pipes.
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Welcome to land locked Alberta.
__________________
Smoke or Fire in the Forest Dial 310-FIRE
thegungirl.ca @gmail.com
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02-21-2019, 07:17 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 19,420
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I like the railroad, but don't go claiming its as safe as pipelines. The main reason most people are criticizing rail is when they're advocating for the pipelines to be built in order to get our economy where it should be and to get us out from under the thumb of our neighbor to the south. I don't know of anyone who really wishes we didn't have railways. Even the leftiest of left-wingers are advocates of rail-based public transit.
When comparing a pipeline to a railway its different. Apples & oranges. Pipelines don't have the potential to have collisions at crossings with motor vehicles, trains do (regardless that this is invariably the motorists fault). I've also never had a pipeline hold me up in gridlock while its shunting cars.
That being said I still like trains, I'd just like to free them up from transporting oil so they can transport more of everything else.
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"The trouble with people idiot-proofing things, is the resulting evolution of the idiot." Me
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02-21-2019, 07:19 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NW Calgary
Posts: 2,785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honda450
Welcome to land locked Alberta.
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No doubt. Land of the expensive transit costs!
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02-21-2019, 07:20 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NW Calgary
Posts: 2,785
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Temperature is more stable in the ground as well for oil to travel and better insulated from the elements.
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02-21-2019, 07:28 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 6,952
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaberTosser
I'd just like to free them up from transporting oil so they can transport more of everything else.
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Dang Caber how is that possible. All pipelines going east, west and south ain't happening. So rail it is.
__________________
Smoke or Fire in the Forest Dial 310-FIRE
thegungirl.ca @gmail.com
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02-21-2019, 07:32 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 19,420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honda450
Dang Caber how is that possible. All pipelines going east, west and south ain't happening. So rail it is.
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Never say never. The current headwinds for our current provincial and federal governments are not favorable. The SNC thing has the Feds in pretty rough waters and the provincial NDP is in a full blown hurricane and are listing heavily.
We'll eventually get more pipelines, the only question is how soon?
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"The trouble with people idiot-proofing things, is the resulting evolution of the idiot." Me
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02-21-2019, 07:44 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Edmonton Area/Candle Lake SK
Posts: 208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ice
I am sick and tired of member’s who are ill informed bashing the railroad.
Every time a train derails and spill’s just a little bit of anything members on here go wild.
“Unsafe” “horrible for the environment”
Untrue.
When a train derail’s and a “spill” occur’s everyone jump’s All over it,
And I’m tired of reading it.
When a train derails, the response time is unprecedented,
When a pipeline ruptures it can continue to pump harmful chemicals or oil into the environment for weeks or even months before it’s discovered.
Just for anyone’s knowledge. The railroad is just as if not safer than pipelines.
If you have any railroad related questions feel free to chime in
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I agree
There are countless dangerous commodities moved by trucks through our community's yet unless there are fatalities in an accident any other traffic incidents are not mentioned in the media.
IF we had pipelines not near as much oil would be moving by rail.
Warren Buffet owns BNSF and was a huge Obama supporter. The BN made billions shipping oil due to lack of pipelines. Travel south and you see train after train of Alberta oil moving on th BN via CP rail.
Rail moves billions of tons safely . Of course like most news stories if it bleeds it leads so any derailment is top news.
357
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02-21-2019, 07:45 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ice
I am sick and tired of member’s who are ill informed bashing the railroad.
Every time a train derails and spill’s just a little bit of anything members on here go wild.
“Unsafe” “horrible for the environment”
Untrue.
When a train derail’s and a “spill” occur’s everyone jump’s All over it,
And I’m tired of reading it.
When a train derails, the response time is unprecedented,
When a pipeline ruptures it can continue to pump harmful chemicals or oil into the environment for weeks or even months before it’s discovered.
Just for anyone’s knowledge. The railroad is just as if not safer than pipelines.
If you have any railroad related questions feel free to chime in
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No questions, just the facts:
Lac Megantic 2013
Hinton 1986
Mississauga 1979
Wabamun Lake ?
Cheakamus River 2005
Where's the safer than here???
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I fish, therefore I am.
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02-21-2019, 08:07 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Edmonton Area/Candle Lake SK
Posts: 208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Flyguy
No questions, just the facts:
Lac Megantic 2013
Hinton 1986
Mississauga 1979
Wabamun Lake ?
Cheakamus River 2005
Where's the safer than here???
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Where's all the dates on the pipeline ruptures to compare?
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02-21-2019, 08:10 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NW Calgary
Posts: 2,785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 357Maximum
Where's all the dates on the pipeline ruptures to compare?
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Guess we need total volumes shipped on both and total miles of pipe and train track as well.
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02-21-2019, 08:27 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Caroline
Posts: 7,274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewM
Guess we need total volumes shipped on both and total miles of pipe and train track as well.
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Don't confuse others with facts/percentage stats
__________________
Two reasons you may think CO2 is a pollutant
1.You weren't paying attention in grade 5
2. You're stupid
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02-21-2019, 08:31 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Caroline
Posts: 7,274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewM
I get what you are saying but how many people have died due to a pipeline leak? We can go round and round on safety arguments forever. Rather than an us vs them they both are viable options at a certain price point. Railways are best used for items that can’t be shipped in a pipe. Waste of energy compared to a pipeline. Grain, vehicles as other solid items belong on rail. Liquids belong in pipes.
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X2. Big waste of energy shipping oil by rail. Quite the way of thinking some have
__________________
Two reasons you may think CO2 is a pollutant
1.You weren't paying attention in grade 5
2. You're stupid
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02-21-2019, 09:06 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 21,399
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Reality says, rail transport is more efficient than trucking or driving. Just go to Europe , to see how well it works . Unfortunately, our rail system is stuck firmly in the nineteenth century with no prospect of change.
Grizz
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"Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal."
John E. Pfeiffer The Emergence of Man
written in 1969
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02-21-2019, 09:14 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NW Calgary
Posts: 2,785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams
Reality says, rail transport is more efficient than trucking or driving. Just go to Europe , to see how well it works . Unfortunately, our rail system is stuck firmly in the nineteenth century with no prospect of change.
Grizz
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Absolutely rail is more efficient then trucks. There’s a reason though that trucks haul the oil to the tracks. Logistically doesn’t make sense to have tracks everywhere.
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02-21-2019, 09:29 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ice
I am sick and tired of member’s who are ill informed bashing the railroad.
Every time a train derails and spill’s just a little bit of anything members on here go wild.
“Unsafe” “horrible for the environment”
Untrue.
When a train derail’s and a “spill” occur’s everyone jump’s All over it,
And I’m tired of reading it.
When a train derails, the response time is unprecedented,
When a pipeline ruptures it can continue to pump harmful chemicals or oil into the environment for weeks or even months before it’s discovered.
Just for anyone’s knowledge. The railroad is just as if not safer than pipelines.
If you have any railroad related questions feel free to chime in
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The problem is there is one rail line which at times cannot handle what it hauls now let alone a huge grain harvest. Throwing more cars on the line is the answer? Not a chance pipelines are the only answer.
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02-22-2019, 06:40 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 1,576
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I don’t think I’d have an issue with hauling oil by rail if there was more space on the tracks. Isn’t there already issues getting Manitoba and Saskatchewan grain to market because of a shortage of rail space? I don’t know much about it but that’s what I’ve heard.
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02-22-2019, 07:15 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 3,886
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ice
When a pipeline ruptures it can continue to pump harmful chemicals or oil into the environment for weeks or even months before it’s discovered.
Just for anyone’s knowledge. The railroad is just as if not safer than pipelines.
If you have any railroad related questions feel free to chime in
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Maybe you should take your own advice and stop mis-informing people about pipelines, since you clearly don't know anything about them.
Pipeline "ruptures" never go unnoticed for weeks. Pipelines are required by law to have automated shutdowns exactly for this reason.
a Pipeline leak may go unnoticed (rare, but ok), but that's no different than a rail car leaking. That would be like a L/hr. I'm not saying that is ok, but a rupture is much different than a leak.
The key element that make pipelines safer is there is almost ZERO human interaction required aside from maintenance/inspections/calibrations. That cannot be said for rail.
FTR.. I don't know of any people killed (at least recently) from a pipeline leak/rupture in western canada. Can't say the same for rail.
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02-22-2019, 07:16 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 899
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Any question?
I'm not trying to hijack the thread because this might be related to safety. I am old enough to remember the debate when the railroads quit running cabooses. In the last week or so, I have seen two trains with bright orange "box cars" at the end. Was this a coincidence or the start of a trend?
Thanks.
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02-22-2019, 07:54 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 6,271
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Sorry, I have a tough time trusting railroads with moving oil after CN dumped a few rail cars of oil and pole treating chemical in Wabamun lake a few years ago in my front yard. Train was high balling to fast around a sharp corner at Whitewood Sands! President Hunter Harrison of CN had also layed off to many railroaders to increase share holder profits, by thy way, he also played same game at CP.
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02-22-2019, 08:10 AM
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Okotoks
Posts: 298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 357Maximum
Where's all the dates on the pipeline ruptures to compare?
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Pipelines move ~3 million bbls of oil out of Alberta every day. Rail averages ~150k bbls per day and up until 5-7 years ago that number was a third of that.
Id wager my next years salary that pipelines have moved more crude more efficiently and far more safely than the railroad has over the last 50 years.
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02-22-2019, 08:34 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sk270
I'm not trying to hijack the thread because this might be related to safety. I am old enough to remember the debate when the railroads quit running cabooses. In the last week or so, I have seen two trains with bright orange "box cars" at the end. Was this a coincidence or the start of a trend?
Thanks.
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These are air cars they house a compressor to add air to the train brake. Allows them to run longer trains in the cold.
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02-22-2019, 09:22 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 899
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Thanks, rigpig. Never noticed one before but now I know what they are.
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02-22-2019, 09:40 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 134
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some facts from CAPP, CN Rail
CAPP being the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers
http://www.capp.ca/~/media/app/custo...ents/24247.pdf
and CN Rail, via the Globe & Mail newspaper
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...port-stranded/
Me, I personally worked on initial development of the proposal for the pipeline to Kitimat for that project, so I kinda do know a little about the facts of it.
Personally, I think pipelines are safer - once they are built - but "once they are built" is a factor involving a whole lotta time to build. Years and years and years.
And cost. For example, the Alaska Pipeline cost 8 times (!!!) the original estimate. Admittedly, that's through difficult terrain, but from work on the pipeline proposal, the terrain to Kitimat ain't too easy either.
In sum, I'd go with the side that reckons while pipelines are safer ONCE THEY ARE BUILT, rail is where we're at for the next few years. So let's make the best of it, shoulders to the wheel, noses to the grindstone etc.
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02-23-2019, 03:54 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,570
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I’m not saying pipelines aren’t a more viable option of shipping oil. Because pipelines are without a doubt more efficient.
The way I look at it is that pipelines and oil train’s go hand in hand.
Pipelines transfer oil to places where it can be refined and then distributed (often internationally back to Canadians)
A pipeline transfer’s oil to a single destination. Where say the railroad can distribute oil into part’s of the world where it’s really needed at that point in time.
If you have a solid look at the stats of ruptured pipelines vs spilled oil from derailment’s.
You’ll find that they are remarkably similar.
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IT'S TIMES LIKE THESE...
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02-23-2019, 04:04 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,570
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And for those that are viewing this from a safety standpoint, sure there are no fatalities from a built pipeline, but you need to understand that the vast majority of pipelines were built a very long time ago.
Of course with today’s safety standards fatalities are far and few between, but how many people died installing all of the old infrastructure.
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IT'S TIMES LIKE THESE...
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02-23-2019, 04:19 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NW Calgary
Posts: 2,785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ice
And for those that are viewing this from a safety standpoint, sure there are no fatalities from a built pipeline, but you need to understand that the vast majority of pipelines were built a very long time ago.
Of course with today’s safety standards fatalities are far and few between, but how many people died installing all of the old infrastructure.
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Not many for the amount of miles of pipe in the ground. Building the railroad would be a heck of a lot more! Haha. Rail is great to move where you need it. Still need a loading and unloading terminal though. A lot of boom and bust when it comes to oil shipped by rail. Without pipelines rail is the best bet then probably trucking. Neither are the most efficiency but will work in a bind.
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02-23-2019, 04:23 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB_AOL
Maybe you should take your own advice and stop mis-informing people about pipelines, since you clearly don't know anything about them.
Pipeline "ruptures" never go unnoticed for weeks. Pipelines are required by law to have automated shutdowns exactly for this reason.
a Pipeline leak may go unnoticed (rare, but ok), but that's no different than a rail car leaking. That would be like a L/hr. I'm not saying that is ok, but a rupture is much different than a leak.
The key element that make pipelines safer is there is almost ZERO human interaction required aside from maintenance/inspections/calibrations. That cannot be said for rail.
FTR.. I don't know of any people killed (at least recently) from a pipeline leak/rupture in western canada. Can't say the same for rail.
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I beg to differ.... https://www.google.ca/amp/s/calgaryh...discovered/amp
2017: On February 17, a total of 200,000 liters of oil condensate in Strathcona County, Alberta were released from line 2A, near Anthony Henday Drive and 92 Avenue,after line was struck during 3rd party construction operations.
2018: On January 7, a butane oil pipeline ruptured in St. John, New Brunswick. About 30 homes in the area were evacuated, as well as the SPCA Animal Rescue League Shelter.
2018: On May 27, a Trans Mountain pipeline leaked at the company’s Darfield station north of Kamloops, British Columbia. About 4,800 liters of crude were released.
2018: On Oct 9, a 36 inch Enbridge natural gas pipeline exploded 13 km north of Prince George, British Columbia. About 1 million BC customers and 750,000 US customers are affected. Natural gas customers are being asked to reduce use.
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IT'S TIMES LIKE THESE...
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02-23-2019, 04:30 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Sherwood Park
Posts: 143
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Our company relies on rail transport entirely within Alberta. Derailments result in losing 1-2% of fleet every year.
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