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  #271  
Old 07-02-2010, 07:36 AM
Rafter Rafter is offline
 
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Originally Posted by pottymouth View Post
It's part of my heritage too!

Last i checked, hunting and fishing was all mankinds heritage! unless some can prove to me they had a Mcdonalds or Safeway in ancient Greece, Babalon or the caveman years.
Pottymouth,

I think some of us are missing the big picture here on the forum.

Aboriginals and their rights are the Law of the Land in Canada. On the forum we are solely focussed on hunting. These aboriginal rights are not about hunting per se, they are about all rights, language, education, culture etc...

Take the little old Aboriginal lady in the wheel chair, for example, who could not hunt even if she wanted to. Tha Alberta Government is trying to bully her out of her rights and she is outraged by it. Not because of hunting, because she can not hunt, but because an oppressive Government is trying to extinguish her people. This little old lady at one time in her life experienced the tradegies inflicted on Aboriginal people by Governments et al. Residential school, Indian Act, etc... To the Aboriginals this is not about hunting, it is about rights and survival as a Nation with in a Nation. Hunting is the only real thing that the Aboriginals could use to get the Government into court, but believe this, it is not only about hunting. Hunting is only a very small part of it. I am not moaning and groaning for the little old lady, she does not need anyones sympathy. She is proud and a fighter.

I take pride in the rich history in Canada that we all share collectively, whether the history is Aboriginal or non Aboriginal. This is one of the greatest countries in the World. For the most part all of are Ancestors, white or non white, are hardy souls that justifiably give us a sense of pride.

Aboriginals know that their rights can be extinquished, do the non Aboriginals know that their rights also can be extinquished in a heart beat by Governments that are led by people with special interests? I think that some do as Alberta has seen enough of that in the very recent past with in the hunting community.

Thanks,
Rafter
  #272  
Old 07-02-2010, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ishootbambi View Post
F&W know about it, but word is that there is no wrongdoing as it was done under the IMHA. as far as i know the heads went to the us...i dont have names. the shooter is from medicine hat, the rams from the crowsnest area. selling price unconfirmed...just rumors so no point furthering that.

the fact he shot 4 is not a rumor. i saw 2 of them first hand and pictures of the others. the shooter is who told me the story. i wont name him publicly and draw more hate to an alrady touchy subject....although many on this forum know already.

Your comments are only unsubstantiated rumors. Not even worthy of mention.
  #273  
Old 07-02-2010, 07:43 AM
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My family has been hunting for subsistance for untold generations. Myself EXCLUDED!

Should I be afforded the right to hunt for subsistance now?
I don't think anyone should.

Subsistance hunting should not be a right given out based on ethnicity.
If an individual can show a demonstrable need for subsistance hunting, then they should be able to hunt some NON-TROPHY game.
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  #274  
Old 07-02-2010, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by pottymouth View Post
It's part of my heritage too!

Last i checked, hunting and fishing was all mankinds heritage! unless some can prove to me they had a Mcdonalds or Safeway in ancient Greece, Babalon or the caveman years.
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  #275  
Old 07-02-2010, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ishootbambi View Post
the cases im referring to were under the IMHA. one of the guys in the court case and his kid took 2 400 ish bull elk at suffield within weeks of the initial announcement of the deal. the kid took a 180 mule buck just after christmas of the first year of the IMHA as well....among other antlered game. the other guy i mentioned killed 4 bighorn rams. i dont know what constitutes a trophy in anyone elses eyes...but 2 of them were awful small by nearly anyones standards....the other two were not full curls.
this is my problem with it as well,as ISB stated trophy animals were dropping like flies all over the province,like some of the old timers say you can't eat horns,so i guess these guys were'nt hungry and were just hunting for trophy's,this is what i don't agree with.
  #276  
Old 07-02-2010, 09:03 AM
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Rafter, I would guess that you are involved in the court case. I could be wrong. I think your passion in this admirable but I disagree with your action and what you are fighting for. Powley gave the Metis the right to subsistence hunt, the province decides where. Look at Ontario, there is a map that delineates where each Metis community hunts. Alberta should be no different. I'm not blind to the statements that it really isn't about subsistence but about rights and this right is simply the first right of many in a very transparent plan.
  #277  
Old 07-02-2010, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ishootbambi View Post
did you hear about the same guy that i know? not one of the guys in the court case, but a metis of convenience who shot 4 rams in the first year of the imha, and sold 3 of them?
Never heard that story but I do know for fact of a number of rams that have been killed by Metis of convenience and then registered through F&W. These rams were shot outside of regular hunting seasons when the sheep were very vulnerable far from traditional Metis settlements. Thankkgoodness the IMHA is behind us but I see the recent court case as little more than an attempt to revive it. We all saw the results of it the first time and I don't see it being any better if it was to become the law of the land. I for one am glad my tax dollars are being used to fight this in Court!
  #278  
Old 07-02-2010, 09:39 AM
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First off, I have said it before on this forum and I'll say it again. I am Metis and proud of my heritage. I keep hearing about all these trophy animals that were taken during the IMHA but there hasn't been much proof shown that this was happening. Lots of rumors, not much proof .I'm not so gullible to believe there weren't a few that took advantage of the situation but I have to wonder why in these days of high speed technology there weren't pictures/videos taken and sent to the CO's along with witness reports? Wouldn't one think that the CO's would have investigated these allegations and there would be documented proof, even if no charges were laid. Call a cop to report something, they make reports. Any involvement by a government agency requires documentation. My take on this situation is that this may require more litigation but at the end of the day, the Alberta government is not going to have any luck convincing the courts that the Metis people never crossed this imaginary line that " Ted " seems to think existed in this province. I have to say that the MNA has made many changes for the better with regards to the genealogy history and screening requirements involved. This has been mentioned by a few other people that have posted in here and the information is on the MNA website. There is no doubt in my mind that to be recognized as a Metis person is not as simple as many are led to believe. I also believe that there are solutions out there that the MNA and the government can agree on that will solve this " the sky is falling " mentality that is prevalent. In my opinion, restricting the areas the Metis people are allowed to hunt to one small part of the province will not be one of them. There are many people out there that seem to think that the Metis situation is going to be the downfall of sport hunting in this province. This in itself is cause for alarm. One simply has to look back and see what has transpired when the focus was on the IMHA issue. Ramp, OS, increase non resident hunting .................
  #279  
Old 07-02-2010, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by outlaw'd View Post
First off, I have said it before on this forum and I'll say it again. I am Metis and proud of my heritage. I keep hearing about all these trophy animals that were taken during the IMHA but there hasn't been much proof shown that this was happening. Lots of rumors, not much proof .I'm not so gullible to believe there weren't a few that took advantage of the situation but I have to wonder why in these days of high speed technology there weren't pictures/videos taken and sent to the CO's along with witness reports? Wouldn't one think that the CO's would have investigated these allegations and there would be documented proof, even if no charges were laid. Call a cop to report something, they make reports. Any involvement by a government agency requires documentation. My take on this situation is that this may require more litigation but at the end of the day, the Alberta government is not going to have any luck convincing the courts that the Metis people never crossed this imaginary line that " Ted " seems to think existed in this province. I have to say that the MNA has made many changes for the better with regards to the genealogy history and screening requirements involved. This has been mentioned by a few other people that have posted in here and the information is on the MNA website. There is no doubt in my mind that to be recognized as a Metis person is not as simple as many are led to believe. I also believe that there are solutions out there that the MNA and the government can agree on that will solve this " the sky is falling " mentality that is prevalent. In my opinion, restricting the areas the Metis people are allowed to hunt to one small part of the province will not be one of them. There are many people out there that seem to think that the Metis situation is going to be the downfall of sport hunting in this province. This in itself is cause for alarm. One simply has to look back and see what has transpired when the focus was on the IMHA issue. Ramp, OS, increase non resident hunting .................
What was there to report????? It was all legal under the IMHA just as it will be again if some of the Metis get their way with the current court case. I see no one has answered my question yet as to why the rights afforded the Metis under the current provincial interpretation of Powley are not sufficient. Why do Metis want the right to drive hundreds of miles to shoot trophy animals? It seems to me the current interpretation of Powley offers loads of opportunity for subsistence hunting. What am I missing?
  #280  
Old 07-02-2010, 10:37 AM
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Why do Metis want the right to drive hundreds of miles to shoot trophy animals?
.
  #281  
Old 07-02-2010, 10:38 AM
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Why do Metis want the right to drive hundreds of miles to shoot trophy animals?
.
  #282  
Old 07-02-2010, 10:38 AM
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Why do Metis want the right to drive hundreds of miles to shoot trophy animals?
oops....triple tap

tm
  #283  
Old 07-02-2010, 11:01 AM
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I am new to this thread, i have read some of the shorter posts and some of the longer ones was like blah, blah, blah. I live in slave lake, so i am around a fair share of natives, in fact my wife is native. I am a whitey and she could be of metis status but never applied for it. I always ask her to go for it and she could take me hunting,lol...just kidding. Her mom is full treaty, so i guess i am a neutral or medium so to speak in this thread. I always ask my wife why she never got her status, and she replies WHY. Why should i have advantages over anyone else, i have had a good education, good home, there have been hard times, but i didn't have to make any sacrafices that any other canadian has had to make...what makes me so special. She has a point. So i have a question to the metis that are in on this discussion, and keep in mind i am a neutral... is there any sacrafices that you have made to deserve advantages. The story of the little old lady in the wheel chair that couldn't hunt...well yes she probably made some sacrafices in her time, but in 2010 what are they?

I would also like to say on my personal belief, that when i am hunting and come accross a moose with only 2 hind quarters and the tongue missing is a total disgrace to the sport, and yes i see a fair share

Thanks just my 2 bits...carry on!!!
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  #284  
Old 07-02-2010, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
What was there to report????? It was all legal under the IMHA just as it will be again if some of the Metis get their way with the current court case. I see no one has answered my question yet as to why the rights afforded the Metis under the current provincial interpretation of Powley are not sufficient. Why do Metis want the right to drive hundreds of miles to shoot trophy animals? It seems to me the current interpretation of Powley offers loads of opportunity for subsistence hunting. What am I missing?
What you are missing is that the Metis want some hunting and fishing rights as the aboriginals have. To go where they please and hunt what they please without any interference from state, church, anti-hunting group or pro hunting group. Hunting is a bigger part of their heritage then white man. The Metis are originally half French and First Nation......therefore they deserve more hunting and fishing rights then the white man. If they want a trophy or a non trophy then that should be their right. If they want to travel from Medicine Hat to High Level and hunt, then that should be their right. We the white man took away their natural rights (the right to live, where they want and how they want-the right to hunt and fish) through white laws, warfare and forced onto reservations. It's time they fought back and rightly so. If you are so worried about your trophies then continue your "fish in a barrel hunt" in Africa on someone else's dime. The white man has had their way long enough. Study pre and post confederation history......you might learn something for a change Schwanky instead of thinking of me, me, me.
  #285  
Old 07-02-2010, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by flint View Post
What you are missing is that the Metis want some hunting and fishing rights as the aboriginals have. To go where they please and hunt what they please without any interference from state, church, anti-hunting group or pro hunting group. Hunting is a bigger part of their heritage then white man. The Metis are originally half French and First Nation......therefore they deserve more hunting and fishing rights then the white man. If they want a trophy or a non trophy then that should be their right. If they want to travel from Medicine Hat to High Level and hunt, then that should be their right. We the white man took away their natural rights (the right to live, where they want and how they want-the right to hunt and fish) through white laws, warfare and forced onto reservations. It's time they fought back and rightly so. If you are so worried about your trophies then continue your "fish in a barrel hunt" in Africa on someone else's dime. The white man has had their way long enough. Study pre and post confederation history......you might learn something for a change Schwanky instead of thinking of me, me, me.
LMAO Flint you are one funny guy. The topic is BS you know it and we know it. The reasons for this in 2010 are again just BS you keep going back to the same old crap. They deserve no more than any other Albertan.
  #286  
Old 07-02-2010, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by flint View Post
What you are missing is that the Metis want some hunting and fishing rights as the aboriginals have. To go where they please and hunt what they please without any interference from state, church, anti-hunting group or pro hunting group. Hunting is a bigger part of their heritage then white man. The Metis are originally half French and First Nation......therefore they deserve more hunting and fishing rights then the white man. If they want a trophy or a non trophy then that should be their right. If they want to travel from Medicine Hat to High Level and hunt, then that should be their right. We the white man took away their natural rights (the right to live, where they want and how they want-the right to hunt and fish) through white laws, warfare and forced onto reservations. It's time they fought back and rightly so. If you are so worried about your trophies then continue your "fish in a barrel hunt" in Africa on someone else's dime. The white man has had their way long enough. Study pre and post confederation history......you might learn something for a change Schwanky instead of thinking of me, me, me.
I'm not missing anything...I know exactly what they want and the supreme court of Canada has difined their rights and they are different from that of the First Nation people. I fully support the Metis rights as defined by Powley but I don't support an extension of those rights.

By the rest of comments it's pretty obvious you have no understanding of the history of the Metis people in Canada. Perhaps you should heed your own advice about studying history.

As for your other personal attacks...I say again.....

But I am flattered that you so closely follow my hunting adventures. Good to see another loyal viewer
......

Last edited by sheephunter; 07-02-2010 at 11:31 AM.
  #287  
Old 07-02-2010, 11:20 AM
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LMAO Flint you are one funny guy. The topic is BS you know it and we know it. The reasons for this in 2010 are again just BS you keep going back to the same old crap. They deserve no more than any other Albertan.
Not sure I agree Argo, the constitution of Canada and Powley say the Metis people do deserve more than the average Albertan and I think as Canadians, it's important to recognize these rights. It just concerns me that a group is trying to extend these rights beyond what the constitution and supreme court of Canada say they are entitled to. That's where my beef lies. Especially when those extended rights could very negatively impact our wildlife populations.
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Old 07-02-2010, 11:32 AM
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Not sure I agree Argo, the constitution of Canada and Powley say the Metis people do deserve more than the average Albertan and I think as Canadians, it's important to recognize these rights. It just concerns me that a group is trying to extend these rights beyond what the constitution and supreme court of Canada say they are entitled to. That's where my beef lies. Especially when those extended rights could very negatively impact our wildlife populations.
My opinion is the need for this is long gone and I do not agree that they or any other group deserve anything above and beyound what any other Albertan gets. I do not need people to agree with me as thats why it is my opinion.
  #289  
Old 07-02-2010, 11:36 AM
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My opinion is the need for this is long gone and I do not agree that they or any other group deserve anything above and beyound what any other Albertan gets. I do not need people to agree with me as thats why it is my opinion.
Not trying to discount your opinion and I think your opinion is shared by many Argo but the fact remains that the Metis are afforded certain extra rights under our constitution and that will never change. I guess my only point was that we need to keep our eye on the real issue here and that's that a group is looking for an extension of those rights. That's something that could change. It's easy to lose track of the real issue here.
  #290  
Old 07-02-2010, 11:45 AM
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What you are missing is that the Metis want some hunting and fishing rights as the aboriginals have. To go where they please and hunt what they please without any interference
And how exactly would a hunting party been treated by the local tribes if caught on "their lands" back in the day?

I'm familiar with some of the history up here. Please tell me why anyone in their right mind would choose to live on the Canadian Shield such as the Dogribs did and not in the hunting mecca of the South Slave? Why would the Inuit choose to live in the high arctic as opposed to below the the treeline?

If you like I can give you some pretty graphic examples of what happened when lines were crossed.

tm
  #291  
Old 07-02-2010, 11:53 AM
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I'm still trying to grasp WHY the MNA and those supporting the EXTENSION of subsistence hunting continue to express that without these ADDITIONAL rights, their culture is being suppressed and endangered.

Actually, I'm not....... The court case is a power grab. The beginning of a broad natural resources claim.

If a culture is depends upon the government for survival and vitality, is there really a viable culture to preserve?

As mentioned before, I'm a person of European descent, and I have been fortunate to be adopted into the "inside" circle of several Aboriginal Nations within Canada and the USA. I have the privelage (earned) to be included in ceremony and elder/leader meetings. Having and continueing to participate in the culture of Treaty and non-Treaty Nations, my knowledge of how these Nation's culture strenghtens or weakens is first hand, not from a google search or rumour. IMO, The strength of a culture must be independant of government support, and government suppression, external and internal.

While I personally feel that the Metis argument for constitutional special rights is weak, they have been successful in getting special constitutional recognition. With this recognition, the Powley decision has already defined the parameters of their subsistance hunting rights, and Alberta quickly met those standards for their Metis citizens. The continued fight for additional rights goes beyond what is being agreed to in new Treaties and agreements with many Aboriginal Nations. Look at the NWT, Nunavut, or BC. There are territorial restrictions to harvesting rights. The Metis in Alberta are asking for broader hunting and fishing rights than are being agreed to by Northern Aboriginal Nations.

Flint, For a person with so much to say, I would expect you to have more accurate knowledge of the topic.

Homo Sapiens evolved from Homo Erectus in the northern climes of Europe and Asia. Environmental conditions forced the selection of individual Homo Erectus with the ability to "hunt" over "scavengers/gatherers". These individuals became a new species, Homo sapien. From here, Homo Sapiens expanded their range southward and East (all the way East to North America over Beringia).

SO if you really want to talk about tradition and history, the human hunters with the longest track record are from Europe and Asia. You know, the ancestors of North American aboriginal people.

Last edited by walking buffalo; 07-02-2010 at 12:21 PM.
  #292  
Old 07-02-2010, 12:05 PM
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Flint, For a person with so much to say, I would expect you to have more accurate knowledge of the topic.

.
Sounds to me like he spends too much time watching hunting shows on television...

Some great info in the rest of your post! It is interesting that the First Nation people have generally not supported the Metis rights afforded in Powley.
  #293  
Old 07-02-2010, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by flint View Post
What you are missing is that the Metis want some hunting and fishing rights as the aboriginals have. To go where they please and hunt what they please without any interference from state, church, anti-hunting group or pro hunting group. Hunting is a bigger part of their heritage then white man. The Metis are originally half French and First Nation......therefore they deserve more hunting and fishing rights then the white man. If they want a trophy or a non trophy then that should be their right. If they want to travel from Medicine Hat to High Level and hunt, then that should be their right. We the white man took away their natural rights (the right to live, where they want and how they want-the right to hunt and fish) through white laws, warfare and forced onto reservations. It's time they fought back and rightly so. If you are so worried about your trophies then continue your "fish in a barrel hunt" in Africa on someone else's dime. The white man has had their way long enough. Study pre and post confederation history......you might learn something for a change Schwanky instead of thinking of me, me, me.
You make me want to puke!!
  #294  
Old 07-02-2010, 12:27 PM
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Not trying to discount your opinion and I think your opinion is shared by many Argo but the fact remains that the Metis are afforded certain extra rights under our constitution and that will never change. I guess my only point was that we need to keep our eye on the real issue here and that's that a group is looking for an extension of those rights. That's something that could change. It's easy to lose track of the real issue here.

Yup and My point is I do not agree that they should have any extra rights.Times have changed
  #295  
Old 07-02-2010, 12:35 PM
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Yup and My point is I do not agree that they should have any extra rights.Times have changed
Absolutely but rights entrenched in our constitution are pretty well impossible to take away. The real fight right now is to ensure they do not receive additional rights that are not assured in the constitution...at least according to Powley.
  #296  
Old 07-02-2010, 12:42 PM
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Poor white man , poor indians, cry, cry, cry.No one will ever be happy. As far as that was a long time ago argument, no chit, that can be said for hundreds of things , as a said before let me know the point of this thread other then a bunch of crying.
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  #297  
Old 07-02-2010, 12:48 PM
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Poor white man , poor indians, cry, cry, cry.No one will ever be happy. As far as that was a long time ago argument, no chit, that can be said for hundreds of things , as a said before let me know the point of this thread other then a bunch of crying.
The point is to keep people aprised of a critical court battle going on right now here in Alberta. Hopefully that amounts to more than a bunch of crying. Living in Manitoba you likely don't appreciate what has transpired here in regards to how Alberta has dealt with the Powley decision but for many of us her, it's a critical issue with the future of fish and wildlife at stake. Sorry it bores you so much.
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Old 07-02-2010, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by flint View Post
What you are missing is that the Metis want some hunting and fishing rights as the aboriginals have. To go where they please and hunt what they please without any interference from state, church, anti-hunting group or pro hunting group. Hunting is a bigger part of their heritage then white man. The Metis are originally half French and First Nation......therefore they deserve more hunting and fishing rights then the white man. If they want a trophy or a non trophy then that should be their right. If they want to travel from Medicine Hat to High Level and hunt, then that should be their right. We the white man took away their natural rights (the right to live, where they want and how they want-the right to hunt and fish) through white laws, warfare and forced onto reservations. It's time they fought back and rightly so. If you are so worried about your trophies then continue your "fish in a barrel hunt" in Africa on someone else's dime. The white man has had their way long enough. Study pre and post confederation history......you might learn something for a change Schwanky instead of thinking of me, me, me.
Flint,

Your post brought a thought to mind.

During the early 1800's the Metis used to travel from Red River in what is now Manitoba all the way to the Rocky Mountains in what is now Alberta by horse and Red River cart to do their subsistance harvesting.

I wonder why people are so incredulous that a Metis would actually drive a few hundred miles to hunt in these times in the comfort of an air conditioned cart pulled by 350 horses.

I guess these people are not aware that the Metis used to take months to go hunting and gathering. So long that they had to winter over and could not even make it back to where they started from in one season.

Back to the T Shirt, "It Is An "Aboriginal Thing You Wouldn't Understand"

Thanks,
Rafter
  #299  
Old 07-02-2010, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by flint View Post
What you are missing is that the Metis want some hunting and fishing rights as the aboriginals have. To go where they please and hunt what they please without any interference from state, church, anti-hunting group or pro hunting group. Hunting is a bigger part of their heritage then white man. The Metis are originally half French and First Nation......therefore they deserve more hunting and fishing rights then the white man. If they want a trophy or a non trophy then that should be their right. If they want to travel from Medicine Hat to High Level and hunt, then that should be their right. We the white man took away their natural rights (the right to live, where they want and how they want-the right to hunt and fish) through white laws, warfare and forced onto reservations. It's time they fought back and rightly so. If you are so worried about your trophies then continue your "fish in a barrel hunt" in Africa on someone else's dime. The white man has had their way long enough. Study pre and post confederation history......you might learn something for a change Schwanky instead of thinking of me, me, me.
I think this is perhaps one of the most belligerent post's i've read on the forum in a long time, it's not even about the Metis for you, your motive here is rather obvious....
  #300  
Old 07-02-2010, 12:58 PM
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redranger15 redranger15 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
The point is to keep people aprised of a critical court battle going on right now here in Alberta. Hopefully that amounts to more than a bunch of crying. Living in Manitoba you likely don't appreciate what has pranspired here in regards to how Alberta has dealt with the Powley decision but for many of us her, it's a critical issue with the future of fish and wildlife at stake. Sorry it bores you so much.
We have the same thing going on here with the metis and wanting to hunt the whole province, just don't see myself getting worked up over something that I have know control over. If it's going to happen or not I don't have much control over it.
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