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  #211  
Old 01-24-2007, 10:52 AM
Rob
 
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Default Re: Crossbows are different I think

Let me know how your experiment goes Xbows. Good luck!

Sharpstick, Crossbows shoot arrows, not bolts. As Blades said, there is no feathers or vanes on a bolt.
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  #212  
Old 01-24-2007, 07:34 PM
sharpstick
 
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Default Re: Crossbows are different I think

Rob in cabelas they are all refered to as bolts!! Actually everywhere I looked them up, including the actual xbow companies they are refered to as bolts. What's the big deal what they are called anyway??
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  #213  
Old 01-24-2007, 08:28 PM
Blades
 
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Default Re: Xbow

Going back to what started this...
"another question, 40 yards max, "due to noise" isn't it loss of kinetic energy and poor trajectory due to the physics of the crossbow and the short heavy bolt it shoots!"
What is your definition of a "poor trajectory"?......then I can reply with more accuracy. Also, what are the "the physics of the crossbow" that you refer to? Because of your own words "as what I know about xbows is limited!" I have to question the source of such tidbits. Just trying to get on the same page you are on.

Todd
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  #214  
Old 01-24-2007, 09:37 PM
sharpstick
 
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Default Re: Xbow

Blades
Why don't you just answer the question.. if you don't know no big deal!
What do you mean what are the physics............How they shoot!!!short axel to axel of the xbow, the reason you have 200lb draw weights for xbows, compared to 60-70 lb draw weights for longer axel to axel compound bows. Shorter more unstable Bolts, arrows whatever you want to call them being shot, an Arrows foc compared to a bolts foc..etc!
How could you reply more accuratly #s are #s
I actually found what I wanted on the xcaliber site, they have all the trajectory charts with kE at different yardages there !!

Blades pretty sure we will never be on the same page!!
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  #215  
Old 01-26-2007, 01:36 PM
Blades
 
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Default Re: Xbow

"the reason you have 200lb draw weights for xbows, compared to 60-70 lb draw weights for longer axel to axel compound bows."
This is easy to exlpain....The power stroke on a horizontal bow can be 12 to 16", where as on a vertical bow it can be twice that(approx) With a longer power stroke, the arrow has more distance to achieve a given speed. With the shorter power stroke, more power is required of the limbs to achive the same arrow speed of a vertical bow with 1/2 the power.
As for the shorter arrows being unstable....(from a bench rest as I shake when standing) using the high-end excalibur Exomax(350fps) I can make a 4 to 5 inch group at 100 yds, on targets. Disclaimer:I had a 16 foot plus arrow drop at this distance...do not attempt to hunt at these distances.
The physics of both bows are very similar.....limb strength, power stroke, arrow weight...etc.
I am glad that you found the information you were after. I was just not sure why you thought the physics of horizontal bow were inferior, and I was looking for the resoning. Something for me to ponder on,...I guess.

Todd
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  #216  
Old 01-27-2007, 10:32 PM
sharpstick
 
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Default Re: Xbow

blades I don't know how to tell you this but xbows are inferior, The physics are quite different, that is why you need a 200lb draw weight that still does not compare to a 60lb draw weight of a compound bow!!
To expand on the arrow thing, which arrow can you throw farther (by hand) a xbow bolt or a compound arrow (both same weight)? Also part of the equation!
I am also assuming that your 100 yard shots are with field points!
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  #217  
Old 01-29-2007, 04:42 PM
Blades
 
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Default Re: Xbow

OK Sharpstick.....if horizontal bows are so inferior, what is the big deal in letting them in archery season?

"that is why you need a 200lb draw weight that still does not compare to a 60lb draw weight of a compound bow!!"
Oh, and I already explained this point in a previous post....Physics for both are similar....

Todd
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  #218  
Old 01-29-2007, 06:46 PM
sharpstick
 
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Default Re: Xbow

Blades you don't get it!
They both shoot with limbs and a string but the physics is way different.....I am tired of trying to explain this!
It is also the reason trajectory and KE are different but I won't even get into that!
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  #219  
Old 01-29-2007, 07:05 PM
sheep hunter
 
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Default Re: Xbow

Crossbows are inefficient for a number of reasons and yes, greatly increased draw weights are required to get the same velocities as compound bows. But, you shoot the same weight arrow at the same speed and the downrange ballistics will be similar no matter what pull weight it required to get them going at that speed. Arrow speed and arrow weight is what matters...not draw weight.
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  #220  
Old 01-29-2007, 07:31 PM
Blades
 
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Default Re: Xbow

"Blades you don't get it!
They both shoot with limbs and a string but the physics is way different"
Evidently I don't get.....something....but do tell me how the laws of physics change from a horizontal to a vertical bow,..mass, enertia, velocity, all are constants that apply to both bows. I have already addressed trajectory...I really do want to know how you think the horizontal bow is inferior,...
Just a general thought, but I first noticed that the resistace to the horizontal bow was because they were 'too accurate' or 'too fast' or 'too much like a gun'. Now I find someone(this is NOT meant as a personal attack, sharpstick) who says that the horizontal bow is not as good as vertical bows. From my point of view, this is amusing.
"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still"
I will stick out my hand and say,..maybe we should agree to diagree, then grab our favorite rifles and go shoot some 'yotes.

Todd
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  #221  
Old 01-31-2007, 06:54 PM
Rob
 
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Default Re: Xbow

Lots of good information here so I will stick it to the top for awhile.

Rob
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  #222  
Old 02-01-2007, 01:09 AM
sharpstick
 
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Default Re: Xbow

Blades I NEVER SAID THE XBOW WAS INFERIOR!! if I did i am sure someone will show me!!lol
I am having a discussion about the differences between the two. About trajectorys, compounds do have better #s although out to 40 yards, which is most peoples max, they are relatively the same. (at least the new powerful high draw weight xbows)
Sheep you are correct about velocity and weight, although efficiency of the weapon is a big one! ( hence the large draw weights for xbows) where it also gets different is length of arrow, length of fletch, height of fletch, foc etc. Way to many other factors but those are most of the big ones! Each one has an effect on down range performance no matter what fps it started at!
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  #223  
Old 02-01-2007, 02:36 PM
Blades
 
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Default Re: Xbow

"Blades I NEVER SAID THE XBOW WAS INFERIOR!! if I did i am sure someone will show me!!lol"


"blades I don't know how to tell you this but xbows are inferior, The physics are quite different,"

(chuckle,chuckle)Consider yourself shown. So tell us again why the horizontal bow should not be classed as archery tackle in Alberta?......you like hunting 'yotes?

Todd
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  #224  
Old 02-01-2007, 02:49 PM
sheep hunter
 
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Default Re: Xbow

Sharpstick, I tried to make this simple earlier but you seem to have missed the point. The design or inefficiency of the crossbow doen't affect the kenetic energy or trajectory at all. It all comes down to arrow speed and arrow weight. Yes it requires much more draw weight to get an arrow going the same speed as a compound bow but once the arrow is in the air it doesn't matter how it was launched. You seem to be missing a big piece of the puzzle. Yes the arrow length will play a role as will size of fletching but it's minor in comparison to weight and speed. Let me put it simply. Shoot the same arrow at the same speed out of a compound bow and and a crossbow and the trajectory and energy will be identical.

Also, larger fletching like that found on many vertical bow arrows will slow their speed more rapidly than an arrow with smaller fletching.
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  #225  
Old 02-03-2007, 10:32 PM
Blades
 
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Default Re: Xbow

I think you hit the nail on the head, sheephunter.

Todd
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  #226  
Old 02-04-2007, 01:55 PM
rocanada
 
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Default Re: Xbow

Anyone who has never shot a crossbow should go try one out,then you can see it's limitations and advatages ,not going to get in to that , all aspects of that have been stated already ,my self I can no longer pull back a bow with my right arm and learning to shoot left when your right handed is almost imposible.If I can't use my crossbow durning archery season how about a draw locking system on a vert bow? That would allow anyone with a physical disability to participate in the archery season.
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  #227  
Old 02-04-2007, 08:22 PM
Blades
 
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Default Re: Xbow

No, rocanada, it won't. Putting a draw lock on a vertical bow wil put it in the same catagory as a horizontal bow.

Todd
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  #228  
Old 02-07-2007, 10:51 AM
sharpstick
 
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Default Re: Xbow

Sheep and blades I ask you why then does my pin gap barely change . 25,40,50,60.
Not that I hunt at those ranges but I like to practice at the long ranges. Even 60 to 70 is not much larger of a gap than 40 to 50 yards.

If I read the xbow trajectory charts right, at 40 to 50 and 50 to 60 yards your pin gaps will be much larger than 30 to 40 yards. Obviously the xbow is slowing down also meaning the KE is going down as well!!

Blades by inferior I meant it's efficiency is inferior(how it launches the arrow), hence the 200lb draw weight, saying the same things just differently. I will go and say that it also does not have the range of a compound. Used ethically the xbow is a fine weapon.

None of that is why they should not be allowed in archery season, or the fact that some want to call it a bow, maybe we just need to re-name it vertical bow season!!lol
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  #229  
Old 02-07-2007, 01:17 PM
sheep hunter
 
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Default Re: Xbow

It all depends on arrow speed and weight...shoot the identical arrow from a crossbow and compound at the same speed and the trajectory will be identical. I don't know how much simpler I can make it. It's very simple physics...not my opinion!

Due to numerous factors it takes more draw weight to achieve the same arrow speed with a crossbow but once the arrow is flying it doesn't matter how it was launched.
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  #230  
Old 02-07-2007, 01:32 PM
sharpstick
 
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Default Re: Xbow

Sheep then what you are saying is the xcalibur trajectory charts are wrong. My compound does not drop off that fast!!


Think of it this way, what could you throw farther a 300 grain 30 inch arrow or a 300 grain 20 inch arrow? I would put money on the 30" If this wasn't true they would make javelins much shorter!!

I may be wrong but length of arrow is more of a factor than you think, add foc as well into the equation. Are xbow bolts also thicker (diameter) meaning more wind resistance?? just asking? no need to take these questions the wrong way!!
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  #231  
Old 02-07-2007, 01:37 PM
sheep hunter
 
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Default Re: Xbow

No question that all others things being equal that a shorter arrow will decelerate faster than a longer one but that's a function of the arrow not what launched it. I never said any different.
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  #232  
Old 02-07-2007, 02:09 PM
Blades
 
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Default Re: Xbow

"Sheep and blades I ask you why then does my pin gap barely change "
"If I read the xbow trajectory charts right, at 40 to 50 and 50 to 60 yards your pin gaps will be much larger than 30 to 40 yards. Obviously the xbow is slowing down also meaning the KE is going down as well!!"
The answer is simple....basic balistics.....a heavier projectile keeps its energy longer than a lighter projectile. Generally, the horizontal bow launches a smaller arrow than a vertical bow, so energy loss is quicker...thus the trajectory is more of an arc, resulting in sight pins being farther apart(after 35 to 40 yds)

"I meant it's efficiency is inferior(how it launches the arrow), hence the 200lb draw weight"
Again, basic physics.....on your vertical bow, say your power stroke(draw length) is 28 to 30 inches, and limb strength is 60 to 70 lbs to achieve arrow speed of 280 to 290 fps. Now to acieve the same arrow speed on a horizontal bow that has a short power stroke(draw length) of 14 inches, you will need more powerful limbs......'about' 2 to 1 ratio.....works out to approx 150lbs....and this is the point I think you have missed, with a shorter power stroke(draw length) you need more powerful limbs to achieve the same arrow speed(and KE) as a less powerful bow with a longer power stroke(draw length).
The principal is the same wether or not the limbs are mounted vertical or horizontal. I have seen vertical bows with shorter power strokes(they had draw locks) and much more powerful and shorter limbs.
I did explain this before, but I hope that I have clarified these points.

Todd
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  #233  
Old 02-07-2007, 03:16 PM
sharpstick
 
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Default Re: Xbow

Sheep, your post said compound and crossbow trajectories of the same speed and weight would be the same.they just would not be is all I said.
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  #234  
Old 02-07-2007, 04:59 PM
Blades
 
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Default Re: Xbow

Why would 2 projectiles of the same weight and speed not have the same trajectory? If that was the case, you would never hit the same place twice with any bow. Physics do not change because a different bow is used.

Todd
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  #235  
Old 02-07-2007, 06:00 PM
sharpstick
 
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Default Re: Xbow

Blades I have been trying to explain this to you for the past two pages,
2 projectiles of the same weight and speed WILL have different trajectories when comparing xbow bolt to arrows because of
1. length of projectile (the big one)
2. Diameter (wind resistance)
3. surface area of projectile
4. length of fletch
5. height of fletch
and more but feel free to google it yourself!

You hit consistently with your bow because you use the same weight arrow, same length, same fletch, same point, etc every time!!!

So to answer your question physics do change with what bow is used. Even when comparing different compound bows!
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  #236  
Old 02-07-2007, 07:32 PM
sheep hunter
 
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Default Re: Xbow

Quote:
So to answer your question physics do change with what bow is used. Even when comparing different compound bows!

Wrong, wrong, wrong. The only variable is the arrow. Yes shorter arrows will decelerate faster but it doesn't matter what gets them going that fast. I will say once more.....shoot the exact same arrow (weight, length, fletch) out of a crossbow and a compound bow at the same speed and they will have identical trajectories. Crap, if you could throw the arrow or shoot it out of a cannon at the same speed it would have the same trajectory. Yes, a crossbow arrow has a different trajectory than an arrow shot out of a compound bow but that's only because the arrows are different. The arrow is the variable, not the means of propulsion. This is Grade 9 physics sharpstick. Not trying to be a dick here but this is pretty simple stuff.

Your post above was 100% on the money until you added that last sentence.
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  #237  
Old 02-07-2007, 11:00 PM
Blades
 
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Default Re: Xbow

Agreed sheep hunter.......Why don't we boil all this down to 1 question,....which bow is better, vertical or horizontal? I think the answer is unique to the person asking.....which brings us back full circle to the original question of why not let horizontal bow into archery season? So far I have not seen any good facts to keeping it out.

Todd
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  #238  
Old 02-08-2007, 12:07 AM
Darrell
 
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Default Xbow

what is the point to to thread anyways?
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  #239  
Old 02-08-2007, 02:14 AM
sheep hunter
 
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Default Re: Xbow

To get people's opinions as to whether crossbows belong in archery season or not.
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  #240  
Old 02-08-2007, 10:04 PM
sharpstick
 
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Default Re: Xbow

you said a crossbow and a compound would have the same trajectories given same weight and velocity and I said no because of length!! I didn't realize you shoot 29 inch arrows out of your crossbow!
The only variable is the arrow.......................So if I shoot my arrow out of your bow it will fly the exact same as out of my bow.......................I don't think so!!
I said different physics even comparing different compound bows because every bow will shoot the same arrows at a different speed meaning the PHYSICS of each bow would be different! SO again THE PHYSICS OF EACH BOW MEANING THE NUMBERS would be different! Or here, maybe the performance, or trajectorys of each bow would be different!!!!!!!! Physics is not just how the weapon shoots, some seem to be stuck on that!
Blade seemed to miss the length of arrow equivalent in the equation! I was just trying to clear that up!
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