crossbow season?

I guess I can put a comparison to flyfishing, bowhunting is like no bait, crossbow is like using worms! Make sense!!

You are thinking way to big here. The difference is more like comparing barbed hooks to barbless.

209X50

Not everyone here realizes that Alberta is one of the last jurisdictions to reclassify crossbows.

False. You will find it is exactly the opposite of what you are saying. You can count the provinces in Canada on two fingers that allow crossbow hunting (without restriction). In ON I might add the archery (crossbow) season does not start until OCT in most cases!!!!

Facts please. Here is a link that refutes your statement:
www.huntersfriend.com/cro...ations.htm

"No way is better than the other just do it where it is legal"

That's it, Sharpstick ! "No way is better than the other".
All we need to do now is change the status quo and make them legal in Archery season. Surely this can't be as complex as some make it out to be.

"Bowhunter numbers are not declining and as I said the ABA numbers were up!( I think about 25% this year!)"

ABA's main argument is based on a definition....that 'archery' equipment means to be 'held at draw'. Therefore no crossbows in 'archery seasons'. They'll probably win lots of battles fighting on that leg too.

They don't care that in the real world of hunting etc. it is a bow. Its so similar in capability to the compound bow that the traditional equipment isn't even in the same league...yet they fight it. They fight overall good for the hunting community period...imo.

I agree with everything else the ABA stands for except this, not sure why they think this way on this subject but thats life...would be boring as heck if everything was perfect.

I wonder if they supported it what their membership % of growth would be this year?....and then again a year or two after the crossbow was actually included? My own guess is it would be much higher than 25%....I see this as a huge opportunity the ABA is missing out on...they could be leading this thing/growing this thing/teaching it etc. etc. etc. They could be getting it in where it fits in best at first etc. etc. They could be encouraging it in the bowzones to study it first etc.

Nope, just fight it to the bitter end.

B

So Sharpstick,

If (according to your posts) crossbows will not raise harvest levels and will not raise hunter levels, what's the problem with allowing them then?

We could go on and on forever!!

If you guys think the aba should adopt the crossgun as a bow, should they also allow them in their 3D tournaments??
It is not a bow, it is more like a gun, its not an arrow its a bolt, has a stock, a trigger, most have scopes etc.
What I don't get is all of you guys whining that you want in on the archery seasons, go out and get a bow, learn how to shoot it and have fun like the rest of us.(funny no one answers this)
If you want to use a crossbow as another challenge, you have ample seasons already!! The one logical comment has been sheep with proposing changes to the handicap rules!

Pig, read my post, it's not going to add new people just change what they hunt with. Those same people that don't kill does with guns or bows won't start because they now use a crossbow!!
As far as being afraid of loosing our liberal archery seasons, I for one hope they do place more restrictions. I feel in areas they need more control for the good of the animals. Maybe they need to put all the draws so you have to choose either archery season or rifle. No more general archery season this way they can accuratly regulate the harvest.

Rich the ABA does not support crossbows because they are not classed as a bow! 30-30s don't shoot far so maybe we should allow them in the camp primitive weapons season!lol

the 30-30 does not have enough muzzle energy to be classed as a "primitive weapon". It is positively prehistoric.

Sharpstick.. No one is suggesting ABA change their rules. They are fine as they are. If anyone wants to join ABA and follow their rules, I guess they can. Same idea with P&Y.

Since when is it up to ABA to dictate what the rules may or may not be for the rest of us who are not members? This issue is not ABA's to decide. It,s a matter of legislation.

I,m thinking there are more licensed Archery hunters who do not belong to ABA than they have members.

In case you haven't been following this........it was legislated in 2006 (check back a number of posts). Crossbows are not included in the archery season.

You can argue this all you want. But if you want to hunt with bow and arow in 2007 I suggest you buy a bow, practice and go hunting. Try it, you might like it. If you insist on hunting in the archery season with a crossbow you're missing out on a good hunting opportunity that already exists and you aren't an archer anyway....you're waiting for something that isn't there! Why wait?

Time to change that !

Pappy.. Seems like you think that all the pro-crossbow supporters are neophyte archers. That is not the case .Many have a fair amount of expierience and expertise in that area.


A greater dimension to the Archery season than what presently exists is not a bad thing. Think of it this way...Who is going to be "hurt" by the inclusion of crossbows..and why ?
Sure, this thread contains lots of responses both pro and con,
and yes, the argument could go on forever. Hopefully, good old logic and common sense will prevail.

AFGA passed a motion to request the reclassifying of crossbows as archery equipment last convention. It is up again this year and is expected to pass. Next year will make the third time and once passed the government usually takes the requested action.
Time will tell won't it?

A Possible Solution; What about a competency test ?

Applicants have their choice -Vertical, Horizontal, or Both.

Objective: Something like this...

X number of shots in a X" dia. bullseye @ X distance

No written exam..just shoot ! If you can't shoot reasonably well under these circumstances, you sure as heck can't do it in the field, and certainly would have no business being there.

Pass the test and you qualify for a go at Archery Season- Flunk and maybe you have a rifle season to look forward to.

This basic ability test could be easily applied and administered by having qualified individuals or shops set up throughout the Province. Similar to Hunter Ed, Firearms Acq. or driver examinations.

A higher entry threshold would elevate bowhunting to an even higher quality sport , It would also serve to dispel some of the many myths associated with current "real world" bowhunting.

It would simply put the emphasis on the participants ability to handle their equipment effectively ,.. not their choice of equipment.

Just a thought........

Who is going to be "hurt" by the inclusion of crossbows..and why ?

If increased hunters results in bow seasons which are currently general going to draw status, EVERY current bowhunter in those zones will be "hurt"...

"I,m thinking there are more licensed Archery hunters who do not belong to ABA than they have members."

I'd lay pretty good money on that one also!!! They really do have a good foundation in my opinion. Based on their logic in all the proposals they do put forward it really does baffle me that they don't see the opportunity in the crossbow??????? I see it as 10 times the benefit to all the hunting community period as compared to fighting its inclusion to the archery seasons. They have enough foundation/ideas/proposals/membership etc. to be taken seriously and i really do believe that everything they stand for is a good thing.....except this one thing...their stance on the crossbow inclusion.

And Sharpstick.....crossgun my arse...your way behind in this argument if your still calling it the crossgun:rolleyes . If you really think this is some magical 100 yrd killing machine then you've not done enough homework...that simple. No offense okay. I mean....seriously....put the thing in your hands and see if its going to make that big a diff? You think Joe Blow and his buddies are gonna turn into trophy killing superstars just because of the tool?????? Pass the pipe dude.....

"If you guys think the aba should adopt the crossgun as a bow, should they also allow them in their 3D tournaments??"

Sorry, i had to add this quote by Sharpstick....Dude, not only did Sheephunter explain that the compound guys can kick the crossbow guys buts in 3d's but since F_CK_NG WHEN WAS A 3D TARGET SHOOT CONSIDERED HUNTING????!!!!! Comparing target shooting to hunting....are you kidding me????? IT'S A BOW!!!!! We are talking about inclusion to the archery seasons for hunting, not some target shooting discipline.....come on man....get with the program here.

"If increased hunters results in bow seasons which are currently general going to draw status, EVERY current bowhunter in those zones will be "hurt"..."

Rocks....are you serious?

Look, a bow is a bow, when you do the homework we're still talkin a 50 yrd game max(for the majority of anyone who picks up any of the 3 types of bow...traditional/compound/cross). Yes there might be an influx of gun hunters who think they can buy a crossbow and kill at will at a 100 yrds but their first season they'll learn that its not really any more effective than a compound bow and it still means they have to get out of the truck and put the time in necessary to kill with a bow. Treestands, blinds, patterning, long spot and stalks etc. etc......trust me....it will be a short learning curve.

Its a BOW!

B

"AFGA passed a motion to request the reclassifying of crossbows as archery equipment last convention. It is up again this year and is expected to pass. Next year will make the third time and once passed the government usually takes the requested action."

Its funny....this info does not surprise me...somehow i just know logic will prevail and i have not been worried at all about the crossbow not making its way to where it belongs. I argued the heck out of this last year on the ABA forums and when i got to my limit of reasoning there were others who came in that had so much more experience/data that in my opinion....could not be refuted. I mean, you could not(with open mind) read the discussion and not side with the crossbow inclusion....it just makes sense. That simple. So i am glad to read the quote above.....and with no surpise either. It can't come soon enough imo.

B

I've been a bowhunter in the edmonton bowzone for 18+ years. The whole issue here is about trophy greed!!!
.
After reading this on another board, I have to agree.
I say "yes" to using crossbows in the bow zones!!
.

Quote- “ Haven't you been stating that they are NOT that proficient/accurate, therefore, should be allowed? Now that the article has stated they are, have you changed your view? “
One study is “proof” ? I think not …… I’ve had crossbows, shot them ……. And like other bowhunters I’ll take a compound any day.

Quote - “Has it ever occurred to you that those compound bowhunters may in fact want to shoot what MANY consider a real bow & arrow? “

LOL – a real bow and arrow is a recurve/longbow. Bowhunters don’t want to use those because they’re hard to use. And they don’t choose crossbows in states that allow them because they too are troublesome and frankly, compounds are better hunting weapons.

BOHNTR – I was anti-crossbow up until a few years ago when I switch to traditional archery. Any attempts to argue that the functionality separates bows is irrelevant because of how easy compounds are to shoot in todays high tech world. You cannot argue against crossbows based on technology without arguing against compounds too.

It’s impossible.

So take another angle, and say that crossbows will mean more hunters, more animals killed, leading to a lesser season and smaller bag limit. No, that don’t hold water, because in states that allow crossbows for everyone in archery season, no facts exist that point to that – its simply a wives tale.

I use to argue then that the “character” of the typical crossbow hunter isn’t quality. They brought in unfavorables into archery season. But then after bowhunting for so many years, I know that slobs shoot every kind of weapon available, it has NOTHING to do with the weapon, at all.

So I went the route that P&Y uses – that a bow isn’t a bow unless you have to draw “in the presence of game “ – that’s laughable after shooting a longbow the past few years. In retrospect, I NEVER drew my bow with the animal in my presence. I ALWAYS drew my bow as the animal came in, as its head was behind a tree etc, and then I held until the shot presented itself, or rather, until the animal moved into my presence. That’s not understood by bowhunters unless you’ve hunted with trad bows.

So its not the shootability of the bow really, its not the draw in the presence of game, its not who shoots them and there is no evidence that crossbows ever lead to negatives. So WHY are we against them again ?

And I couldn’t generate a good argument, and I changed my view. I refuse to be a sheep, led along by what others say without thinking it through and coming to my own conclusions.



Proutdoors – you keep saying how you want to fight to keep them out, but you can offer NO valid reasons why.

Never have crossbows in general archery season been anything but positive. That is fact

They are no better a weapon, proven by archers who choose compounds over them where crossbows are legal.

There is no “drawing the presence“ argument, because compounders don’t draw in the presence either.

Nothing ya’ll put forward holds water, nothing. I’ve been through these debates the last couple of years – I was on YOUR side of it for a couple.

“ get BETTER reasons Brad and I'll listen. “

Cool. The same reasons compounds were allowed, so too should crossbows. The same reasons mechanical releases, fiber sights, greater than 65% letoff and mechanical broadheads were allowed, so too should crossbows. Every state to my knowledge that has allowed crossbows for everyone (not just handicap) has seen an increase in bowhunter numbers. That’s a GOOD thing, not a negative.

Are those good enough reasons ?

Buckrub – I’m not criticizing you, but yes, others hate that you use crossbows.

The whole “western” argument is silly. I lived in Colorado for several years. I’ve hunted NM, WY, SD, CO and several other states. The “herds” would not any more negatively affected by crossbows than they are with compounds, recurves and longbows. Why ? Because much of out west is tag systems, and very limited tagging. Does it matter if I use my 6 PP’s and hunt with a compound or a crossbow ? No, it doesn’t.

The only thing I can see, is that crossbows might bring in more bowhunters. Gawd that would be HORRIBLE, wouldn’t it ? Talk about selfishness ………

"You can argue this all you want. But if you want to hunt with bow and arow in 2007 I suggest you buy a bow, practice and go hunting. Try it, you might like it. If you insist on hunting in the archery season with a crossbow you're missing out on a good hunting opportunity that already exists and you aren't an archer anyway....you're waiting for something that isn't there! Why wait?"

Pappy, currently we have traditional guys and compound guys. You don't think they know their place? You don't think the traditional guys know they got it way tougher than the compound guys....and you don't think the compound guys don't think the traditional guys are way too hardcore? You don't think the compound guys have the utmost respect for the traditional guys?

If the crossbow is included then it will be same thing, yeah, majority will choose that in the long run...shortest practice time etc. etc. But those seeking more of a challenge will move to the compound or traditional if they are really wanting the ultimate in difficulty. Just like the guys who would choose a muzzle loader over a 270 WSM.

Its an individual thing. Its simply one more choice for humanity. Choices are a good thing. I'm a compound guy...could i feel as good about shooting trophy deer with a crossbow? Not likely. So until i can't shoot them anymore i won't be lookin at a crossbow for myself. Doesn't mean the option isn't a good thing!

Heck, in my hunting career i might choose to hunt with all three different bows just simply because each one interested me at the time. Just like i might get a muzzle loader some day...or some whiz bang weatherby super magnum some day? Its the choices that are good overall and if one bow fits in with other bows then by golly...put it there! Putting the crossbow in with the guns is like putting Kate Moss in an eating contest.

Personally i want the crossbow inclusion so i can take my brother in law, my wife, my friends with me in the bowzone to get their 'first deer'(with a bow to boot!)....which i can set them up on and take a doe no prob. And we all know we could stand to take way more does out of the bowzone...the tag allowances tell us that....not to mention the amount of deer/car collisions.

That is merely one reason to want a crossbow. All gun hunters have it this easy. They can take anyone new with with them and get their first deer...simply because it takes very little time/practice to learn how to use the tool. The hunter is stilll me(or the guy who takes the rookie out for their first deer) but to me....that may light a fire/create a spark...of interest into our sports. The more people i can take with me the better...the more that might take it up as seriously as i do. Its simply one reason to want the inclusion.

I don't have much gun permission...i don't have any as i'm so focused on bowhunting. So handing a 70 lb 29.5" draw compound bow to my wife is a waste of time. You can argue that if they are serious enough then they'll buy their own and do the necessary practice....all i have to say to those guys is....'get bent you selfish pr_ck', and so sorry for my attitude on the subject but....go gopher hunting...i can take 3 or 4 newbies with me and arm them will all sorts of airgun/rimfire etc. I can go coyote calling and arm newbies with single shot centerfires in short order etc. Yet the one discipline i'm most passionate about (bowhunting) and all they can do is sit and watch?...as i can't just hand them my bow etc.?...and there is a bow that i could hand them yet its 'not allowed'??????? Once again i get back to the 'get bent' type of statement....as to me.....me personally....its a good thing for hunting overall. Its a bow. In every aspect i could research....in regards to 'hunting'...it's a bow!

Sorry for the rum fueled rant but its a bow folks....a little research and you'll find out the same as i did. Whether it helps guys with screwed up shoulders, old weak bodies, young weak kids/women, guys who just like to introduce people to the sport etc. etc. etc., even if it helps really good hunters score a few percent more likely than they could with a compound........it doesn't make enough of a negative impact to offset the staggering positive impact it makes if included in the archery seasons.

Its the 'good/talented' hunter who can make the most use of it....the same dude will still likely do the same with a compound...we're talking such a small percentage of guys who can actually make a small percentage of difference in the kill ratios of trophies. Those guys can make it work with whatever is in their hands.

B:lol

What I don't get is all of you guys whining that you want in on the archery seasons, go out and get a bow, learn how to shoot it and have fun like the rest of us.(funny no one answers this)

Excellent logic, if you want to hunt in a weapon specific season; learn to use the weapon required. I would have no problem seeing the whole season carved up into segments that included bows, then x-bows, then bp, then sluggun and then rifles. Probably work out to be around 15 day seasons each and every hunter simply goes through the draw. Given the number of bowhunters that say "get a bow nd go hunting" I'm sure they would love to fill their lockers with this wide variety of weapons in order to enjoy as much of the seaon as possible.

Sharpstick,

Like the quote above points out, I think if you read the previous posts most of the people in this discussion (including myself) are bowhunters, and from what I can see experienced.

So we have already pickup the bow and gone out and had some fun.

Maybe what you and Pappy can't get past is the fact that we are not all foam at the mouth fanatics that are afraid of letting new things be tried.

Good luck with your season this year, maybe I'll see you out there. Provided you don't think I would be crowding you out.

"Maybe what you and Pappy can't get past is the fact that we are not all foam at the mouth fanatics that are afraid of letting new things be tried."

:lol :lol

Lol, no doubt, the data and logic are all there...makes most sense to include it in the archery seasons, there's no data we don't know yet or can't get already from other parts of the continent so whats the hold up? Life is short. I get the feeling that Alberta is always at the arse end of innovation/decision making etc. regarding our outdoor sports? Takes forever to implement changes that make sense etc. Its a shame imo.

B

Blake sober up so we don't have to read pages of crap from you, just another tough guy behind a computer screen that has to swear!
As far as a crossbow being a bow, shake your head, you don't hold the string, it sits ready till you FIRE it.
Bottom line, if all you crossbow hunters are really that into them you have been given ample long seasons province wide.

I keep getting asked how will it hurt the bowhunters if crossguns are allowed, guess I should ask how will bowhunters benefit from allowing them?

From what blake said he is tired of practicing with his bow so he needs to use a crossbow, pretty lame reason to allow crossbows in an archery season but probably the reason most want it changed! As far as your wife goes buy her a bow that fits like I did and she will have a blast shooting it like mine does.

Also curious about the 3D shoot comment, probably the best practice you can get for hunting so why the blow up about crossbows, if you want to hunt with them why not 3D with them??

I keep getting asked how will it hurt the bowhunters if crossguns are allowed, guess I should ask how will bowhunters benefit from allowing them?

A question with a question How original sharpstick as a bow hunter i cant see who it would hurt plenty of room for everyone ,Break it down hunting is hunting .Give it a rest i am starting to smell a dead horse in here.:eek

Personally, I think this whole thing is retarded.
Why cant some sort of compromise be reached?

Why not this set up

Sept = Bow
Oct = Bow,CrossBOW, Muzzle
Nov = Rifles and everything else.

It's not like we are re-inventing the wheel here.

I know some areas of the province only have a couple of weeks of bow season. Perhaps those should be left alone.
But as far as southern Alberta goes, lets get this open.
Bow zones also need to at least add cross bows if not Muzzles as well.

I have read the position of the ABA. It reeks of selfishness.
I was told a long time ago by a F/W officer that the ABA has to much political power to allow x-bows or muzzles into the bow zones. I hope after all these years we can prove him wrong.

Jamie

"..guess I should ask how will bowhunters benefit fom allowing them in"

By the sounds of it Sharpstick, you feel bowhunters have THE FINAL SAY on this one. I,m curious..just who are these bowhunters, and how can I contact them? I would like to be ALLOWED in.

Peter I have answered the first question(read the first 7 pages), no one will say how it will benefit bowhunters?
Jamie they did compromise, crossbows can be used from aug 25 till nov 30 depending on the zone and what you want to hunt!
I guess my point here is give them an inch they want a mile,

pup buy a bow everyone is welcome! Check out the ABA website some good info!! No bowhunters don't have the final say but we do have a voice!

Peter I have answered the first question(read the first 7 pages), no one will say how it will benefit bowhunters?

Sharpstick i have read the hole tread and yet it has gone a full circle.(With One conclusion agree to disagree.) Happy New Year

I have two Bows already, Sharpstick. A Hoyt and an Excaliber.