Changes To Archery Mule Deer.

[J.B.]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

But yet we as hunters follow along and offer suggestions to soften the blow. At some point we need to draw a line in the sand and say no..............who knows if it would help but at least there is recourse then. If we comply and help build the future it pretty negates our voice in the future. ESRD has long used AGMAG as proof that it's meeting its responsibilities for public input and ultimately cooperative solutions to management. It will be interesting to see how the bighorn sheep issue plays out. Regardless, there will be room for recourse. Not so much in this case I don't think. It's time hunters and the groups that represent them start thinking differently and not believe that softening the blow is a victory.

I believe thats what was done sheep...and it didn't help...so now the ABA is trying to soften the blow as you call it.
Maybe it is time the user groups dig in thier heels, say enough of this bullchit already, and take legal action against a blatant and deliberate disregard for the residents of Alberta. I personally would love to see some house cleaning in ESRD, and I know biologists who are passionate about thier work and would do a much better job than what is or is not being done now.

[trophyboy]

oops

[Deer Hunter]

IMO the bowhunting harvest is not the real problem wrt growing trophy quality. Outfitting is. Let them outfit anything that residents dont have to stand in line for. If we do, pull the allocation completely. And see how that works for trophy quality after a few years. Just ask Saskatchewan.

Originally Posted by J.B.

I believe thats what was done sheep...and it didn't help...so now the ABA is trying to soften the blow as you call it.
Maybe it is time the user groups dig in thier heels, say enough of this bullchit already, and take legal action against a blatant and deliberate disregard for the residents of Alberta. I personally would love to see some house cleaning in ESRD, and I know biologists who are passionate about thier work and would do a much better job than what is or is not being done now.

But that's not what was done if negotiations are underway how to soften the blow. The first rule of parenting is that no needs to mean no....it sounds like it didn't here. I'm not criticizing anyone just saying that at some point, no actually needs to be our final answer. I think it is time user groups dig in their heels and say enough of this BS...but actually mean it. It's what the groups are doing regarding sheep. It new ground for sure. If we get something rammed down our throats we have recourse...everyone in ESRD has a boss. If we comply to the ramming in the hopes they do it softer...what can we say?

[J.B.]

Edit. Dbl post.

[trophyboy]

Deer Hunter, I completely agree with you regarding the outfitters. No one can convince me that it's fair for residents to wait while outfitters take non-residents every year. I highly doubt that will change though since SRD seems to be in love with APOS for some strange reason. Maybe it's due to the disproportionate amount of outfitter offences which puts tons of dough into the provincial coffers in the form of fines for their violations.

[J.B.]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

But that's not what was done if negotiations are underway how to soften the blow. The first rule of parenting is that no needs to mean no....it sounds like it didn't here. I'm not criticizing anyone just saying that at some point, no actually needs to be our final answer. I think it is time user groups dig in their heels and say enough of this BS...but actually mean it. It's what the groups are doing regarding sheep. It new ground for sure. If we get something rammed down our throats we have recourse...everyone in ESRD has a boss. If we comply to the ramming in the hopes they do it softer...what can we say?

Well myself along with many other members of SABA have gotten to the point where we are willing to take far more action than letter writing and negotiations. And it not just the mule deer issue we have problems with, but its definitely what is driving the notion now...

Originally Posted by J.B.

Well myself along with many other members of SABA have gotten to the point where we are willing to take far more action than letter writing and negotiations. And it not just the mule deer issue we have problems with, but its definitely what is driving the notion now...

It seems you aren't alone..............it's a good time to unite!

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by J.B.

That's if you belive thier numbers...once you look at the data a little closer you realize most of the numbers are very unrealistic...I do believe certain zones are over 15% harvest but not by much and certainly not all the zones identified...a grade 3 student could do the math ESRD bases thier harvest data upon-trust me its not because kids are so smart these days. If sound data indicated there was indeed over harvest by all means implement a separate archery draw. Its only the responsible thing to do. But the numbers are rediculous, and so is the proposed change - hence the anger and frustration by so many hunters...

So they have done surveys, what else are they supposed to, hold the press because the interest group involved doesn't like the results? They have to base the decision on something, whether you trust it or not it's all they have. Rifle hunters have an iron in the fire here as well, I'm sure there was some complaining going on somewhere, although we haven't heard much from them. The only frustration I'm seeing is from the archer's and I can understand that, but I think you'd be further ahead arguing that archers deserve a separate draw than arguing their survey is wrong.

[duffy4]

we've come a long way...

The people with Fish and Wildlife are trained professionals whose job it is to manage fish and wildlife populations and also to provide and manage some hunting and angling opportunities for resident and non residents.

At some point in the past, possibly as the result of demands from the public, the government started doing more "public information and input" in their decision making.

Sometimes I think it is going too far as the public seems to have the idea that the government cannot make any moves without allowing all kinds of public input or partnerships with various organizations.

It is the job of F&W to manage mule deer and I reckon they are going to remove a lot of general tag archery seasons and have all hunting in those WMUs on a draw for all hunters. Just as they have done in the past with Moose.

[J.B.]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

So they have done surveys, what else are they supposed to, hold the press because the interest group involved doesn't like the results? They have to base the decision on something, whether you trust it or not it's all they have. Rifle hunters have an iron in the fire here as well, I'm sure there was some complaining going on somewhere, although we haven't heard much from them. The only frustration I'm seeing is from the archer's and I can understand that, but I think you'd be further ahead arguing that archers deserve a separate draw than arguing their survey is wrong.

The data is false that's all there is to it. It has been proven to esrd and they don't care. What I would like to see is reliable data collection. As has been stated by others, and if you would read and comprehend the whole discussion this move by esrd is about managing hunter numbers affield and not mule deer numbers. If sound data proved that archery mule deer needed to go on draw then it absolutely should happen as a separate draw. The reason for the outrage is because nothing about this makes sense, and I can see that you don't really have much knowledge of what is actually going on. No offence intended, but thats what I get out of your response.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Take a look at the thread about the harvest surveys....

Some people aren't getting them who are registered...like me.

Some people are only getting bird surveys....when they purchased big game tags and vice versa.

These are the surveys these important decisions are based on...

Something smells really funny...about these "numbers" and I am glad people are starting to realize and recognize it...

Thanks deerhunter for compiling the "data" some interesting numbers there.

LC

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by J.B.

The data is false that's all there is to it. It has been proven to esrd and they don't care. What I would like to see is reliable data collection. As has been stated by others, and if you would read and comprehend the whole discussion this move by esrd is about managing hunter numbers affield and not mule deer numbers. If sound data proved that archery mule deer needed to go on draw then it absolutely should happen as a separate draw. The reason for the outrage is because nothing about this makes sense, and I can see that you don't really have much knowledge of what is actually going on. No offence intended, but thats what I get out of your response.

LOL no offense taken, but... the data is wrong and that's all there is to it? Who has proven it? Where's the study? I understand your a stake holder and don't like it. I don't see anywhere in the paper that was posted, that ever said this was about managing deer numbers, my understanding is that it is to cap the number of deer harvested by archers in the archery season at 15% of the total deer harvested. To me it looks like it will accomplish that end, like I have alluded to I hate to see anyone lose out on hunting opportunities, rifle hunters as well as bow. Keep in mind that there are only so many deer to be harvested, ESRD through their surveys has identified bow hunters as getting a bigger share of the pie in some zones than they have mandated. So they are getting cut back...

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Take a look at the thread about the harvest surveys....

Some people aren't getting them who are registered...like me.

Some people are only getting bird surveys....when they purchased big game tags and vice versa.

These are the surveys these important decisions are based on...

Something smells really funny...about these "numbers" and I am glad people are starting the realize and recognize it...

LC

Before you start crying wolf, you might want to give it a day or two, I know they don't all go out at one time. I know people that are getting them today. Plus my understanding is that bird surveys are sent out separately from big game. Plus, it's important to check that your e-mail addy is current with Relm and that the email is not in your junk or spam folder.

After all that and it's not in your mail...start hollering wolf

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Before you start crying wolf, you might want to give it a day or two, I know they don't all go out at one time. I know people that are getting them today. Plus my understanding is that bird surveys are sent out separately from big game. Plus, it's important to check that your e-mail addy is current with Relm and that the email is not in your junk or spam folder.

After all that and it's not in your mail...start hollering wolf

LOL...point taken. BUT, I know the system has my info correct as I received back my head submission results...

Its close to x-mas and like every 5 year old I have no patience...

LC

[duceman]

i have filled out one big game survey, then a bird survey a couple hours later tonite, lee

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Take a look at the thread about the harvest surveys....

Some people aren't getting them who are registered...like me.

Some people are only getting bird surveys....when they purchased big game tags and vice versa.

These are the surveys these important decisions are based on...

Something smells really funny...about these "numbers" and I am glad people are starting to realize and recognize it...

Thanks deerhunter for compiling the "data" some interesting numbers there.

LC

Once people realize what's going on these surveys will quickly become useless, people will try and manipulate the survey with their answers to the survey. About the only thing left is a manditory reporting.

[J.B.]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

LOL no offense taken, but... the data is wrong and that's all there is to it? Who has proven it? Where's the study? I understand your a stake holder and don't like it. I don't see anywhere in the paper that was posted, that ever said this was about managing deer numbers, my understanding is that it is to cap the number of deer harvested by archers in the archery season at 15% of the total deer harvested. To me it looks like it will accomplish that end, like I have alluded to I hate to see anyone lose out on hunting opportunities, rifle hunters as well as bow. Keep in mind that there are only so many deer to be harvested, ESRD through their surveys has identified bow hunters as getting a bigger share of the pie in some zones than they have mandated. So they are getting cut back...

Multiple individuals have proven it to rob corrigan and he doesnt care what is right or wrong. If my memorry serves me correct the survey showed that archers have recently taken 80-100 mule bucks per year out of zone 305. Add on the draw allocation and there are 250+ bucks shot in that zone every year???? Its rediculous. The zone would be dead in a few years at thay rate and if you have spent any time in the zone it has probably the highest mule deer density of any zone I've hunted...look at the data they use and you will agree that it makes now sense. The way the numbers are reached leaves so much room for error its plain for anyone to see...someone with a stats background could figure the margin of error out but not me...there has been links posted to a full outline of the math somewhere I believe ishootbambi has them too...

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Once people realize what's going on these surveys will quickly become useless, people will try and manipulate the survey with their answers to the survey. About the only thing left is a manditory reporting.

You can't manipulate what you don't receive

If you make it mandatory (which I am ok with) people can still manipulate it....maybe more will?

Most people I would guess know why these surveys are put out as it is.

LC

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

You can't manipulate what you don't receive

If you make it mandatory (which I am ok with) people can still manipulate it....maybe more will?

Most people I would guess know why these surveys are put out as it is.

LC

I guess I must be a little simple, never thought a survey that far through, just do my bit to help out and answer the questions. Mandatory would make sense, at least you'd get a good number of respondents. Game counts would not help in a debate like this as it doesn't tell you who's taking what. I didn't get a survey either although I only bought bird game, maybe I'll check my mailbox with my provider and see if it's been filtered out. Is there a comments section in the survey for those that got one?

[J.B.]

Lefty I think you will get a certain amount of manipulation with mandatory surveys, but it will have a far lesser effect on overall numbers than with the system we have now. Using last years participation results if I get two friends plus myself to lie and say they arrowed a mule buck in 102 it puts that zone at over 15% harvest. That's 3 people out of 15000+ bowhunters! Crazy ain't it?

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Have you sent these graphs to any of the groups on AGMAG? To ESRD?

Not to make a ton more work for you but it would be interesting to see the average of these numbers from the five-year period 2008-2012 as allocations are based on a five year cycle.

Not criticizing either but it might be simpler to understand if each of the three groups had its own vertical line for each WMU. This is some very useful info.

Each group having its own line creates a graph that has way too much info on it and would be impossible to read imo. Percentages get you right to the heart of the issue being how big the pie is for users other than the resident draw crowd. Here is Antelope with what you are suggesting. It is feasible as it has only 8 zones and no landowner column.



This info is the tip of the iceberg compared to what esrd already has, but has ignored.

Here is the 2010 antlered mule deer raw data:

Notice the oufitter data for the general WMU's that didnt appear on the graphs as they were based on percentage of draw only zones. Also the ** beside the WMU indicate that the wmu is anticipated to go on draw for archery mule deer in 2013.

Outfitter
WMU/ Bow/ Open/ Total
102 4 8 12
104** 4 2 6
106 4 2 6
108** 4 9 13
110** 10 11 21
112 4 2 6
116 8 11 19
118 8 9 17
119 4 6 10
124 4 5 9
128 0 2 2
130** 0 4 4
132** 4 2 6
134 4 2 6
136 4 2 6
138** 4 2 6
140** 4 2 6
142 0 0 0
144 1 0 1
148 4 5 9
150 4 7 11
151 12 14 26
152 8 8 16
156** 4 2 6
158 4 8 12
160 8 11 19
162 6 4 10
163 4 6 10
164 4 4 8
166 4 8 12
200 8 22 30
202 2 6 8
203 2 6 8
204 4 8 12
206** 4 6 10
208** 4 14 18
210** 4 2 6
212 Gen 0 42 42
214** 4 4 8
216** 4 4 8
220** 4 14 18
221** 4 2 6
222** 4 2 6
224** 4 6 10
226** 4 0 4
228 2 2 4
230 4 2 6
232 4 8 12
234 4 10 14
236 4 8 12
238 4 4 8
240 0 2 2
242 4 2 6
244 0 0 0
246 0 0 0
248 Gen 0 2 2
250 0 0 0
252 0 2 2
254 4 2 6
256 4 4 8
258 4 2 6
260 4 0 4
300**. 4 7 11
302** 8 10 18
303**
304** 12 32 44
305** 13 33 46
306** 8 11 19
308** 4 11 15
310 4 10 14
312 8 16 24
314** 8 22 30
316 Gen 4 51 55
318** 4 45 49
320** 4 14 18
322** 4 6 10
324** 4 18 22
326 4 54 58
328 4 31 35
330 4 16 20
332** 4 4 8
334 4 5 9
336 4 13 17
337** 4 6 10
338 4 4 8
339 Gen 4 10 14
340 Gen 4 22 26
342 Gen 4 8 12
344 Gen 2 16 18
346 4 32 36
347 Gen 4 6 10
348 4 9 13
349 Gen 4 61 65
350 Gen 2 58 60
351 Gen 4 14 18
352 Gen 2 4 6
353 Gen 2 4 6
354 Gen 2 17 19
355 Gen 3 2 5
356 Gen 4 22 26
357** 4 16 20
358** 4 12 16
359** 4 10 14
360** 4 6 10
400** 4 10 14
402** 4 12 16
404 4 12 16
406 4 30 34
408 4 6 10
410 Gen 0 4 4
412 Gen 4 14 18
414 Gen 4 14 18
416 4 14 18
417 4 10 14
418 4 15 19
420 4 20 24
422 4 5 9
426 4 5 9
428 4 3 7
429 4 33 37
430 4 5 9
432 Gen 4 5 9
434 4 10 14
436 4 5 9
437 4 4 8
438 4 10 14
439 4 5 9
440 Gen 2 5 7
441 Gen 4 5 9
442 Gen 4 5 9
444Gen 4 5 9
445 Gen 4 5 9
446 Gen 4 5 9
500 4 4 8
501 4 0 4
502** 4 2 6
503 4 2 6
504** 4 0 4
505 4 2 6
506** 4 0 4
507 4 6 10
508 4 2 6
509** 4 4 8
510** 4 4 8
511 Gen 4 10 14
512 Gen 4 7 11
513 0 0 0
514 Gen 4 2 6
515 Gen 4 0 4
516 Gen 4 10 14
517 Gen 4 10 14
518 Gen 0 0 0
519 Gen 4 10 14
520 Gen 4 10 14
521** 4 10 14
522** 4 10 14
523** 4 16 20
524 Gen 4 20 24
525 Gen 4 49 53
526** 8 25 33
527** 8 24 32
528 Gen 4 10 14
529 Gen 4 9 13
530 Gen 4 10 14
531 Gen 4 10 14
532 Gen 0 0 0
534 Gen 0 2 2
535 4 0 4
536 Gen 2 10 12
537 4 4 8
539 Gen 2 0 2
540 Gen 0 0 0
542 Gen 4 10 14
544 Gen 4 20 24

Landowner Antlered mule deer
WMU / #
102
104 13
106 7
108 22
110 8
112 2
116 4
118 4
119 3
124 1
128 1
130 2
132 12
134 9
136 5
138 6
140 2
142
144
148 1
150 3
151 10
152 6
156 19
158 13
160 13
162 13
163 9
164 15
166 36
200 21
202 21
203 17
204 30
206 11
208 35
210 16

214 17
216 9
220 23
221 8
222 3
224 13
226 4
228 9
230 9
232 16
234 8
236 26
238 33
240 3
242 11
244
246

250 6
252 3
254 20
256 6
258 20
260 8
300 5
302 14
303
304 11
305 22
306 5
308 2
310 1
312
314 8

318 2
320 2
322 5
324 1
326
328
330
332 2
334 8
336 1
337
338




346

348 3








357 25
358 16
359 12
360 7
400
402
404
406
408



416
417
418
420
422
426
428
429
430

434
436
437
438
439






500 2
501 1
502 1
503
504 1
505 2
506 3
507 9
508 8
509
510 7










521 11
522 23
523 22


526 25
527 13




Resident/Non Resident Draw 2010
WMU/ Success/ Applied
102 250 513
104 54 236
106 45 158
108 241 1078
110 173 537
112 87 267
116 288 507
118 322 592
119 90 413
124 139 198
128 129 399
130 148 288
132 11 304
134 12 281
136 43 133
138 5 216
140 10 87
142 16 71
144 34 55
148 175 379
150 43 247
151 232 516
152 241 682
156 124 613
158 97 499
160 233 233
162 126 126
163 187 557
164 125 493
166 267 942
200 621 1139
202 307 1006
203 335 599
204 128 621
206 88 310
208 45 909
210 64 451

214 46 538
216 58 250
220 132 617
221 9 163
222 28 164
224 46 464
226 24 184
228 118 417
230 223 415
232 305 712
234 320 607
236 335 675
238 96 565
240 21 172
242 85 339
244 39 114
246 31 109

250 60 492
252 140 300
254 206 592
256 191 325
258 64 397
260 47 262
300 23 211
302 31 217
303 20 55
304 215 850
305 173 1333
306 38 230
308 50 272
310 105 215
312 274 363
314 150 445

318 20 261
320 85 219
322 90 268
324 25 258
326 41 162
328 90 215
330 30 143
332 149 430
334 157 378
336 126 412
337 149 364
338 124 232




346 359 384

348 106 589








357 130 1825
358 35 485
359 147 1024
360 113 449
400 22 278
402 22 261
404 117 117
406 213 323
408 250 45



416 10 22
417 6 25
418 7 13
420 20 35
422 5 5
426 6 6
428 5 9
429 5 84
430 5 14

434 7 11
436 8 8
437 28 56
438 52 164
439 11 89






500 80 183
501 35 101
502 47 268
503 134 119
504 30 191
505 31 229
506 32 226
507 43 526
508 52 328
509 52 189
510 115 530










521 105 809
522 123 815
523 195 805


526 353 1583
527 218 869






535 4 66

537 10 15

[Pudelpointer]

Am I understanding the numbers in the above post DH:

Archery is General and Rifle on Draw, with 250 tags issued. Out if those 250 tags, 8 kills were reported? 12 kills reported in the entire zone?

You have to be kidding me....

[Deer Hunter]

An example from the numbers would be

WMU 208, 2010

Going to be going on archery draw in 2013

4 outfitter bow allocations/tags
14 oufitter open/rifle tags available
18 total oufitter allocations

35 landowner antlered mule deer tags sold

45 resident/nr draw tags awarded from 909 applicants

Total 18+35+45= 98 people hunting antlered mule deer in this zone plus an unknown general resident archery mule deer group.

15% harvest is the "F&W archery policy" that moves it to a resident archery draw. So they assume/calculate that at least another 14 residents kill a mule deer with a bow.
This move reduces the resident opportunity here two fold and does nothing to the 18% oufitter allocation or 35% landowner group.
1) adds bowhunters to the resident draw wait times as there is already 909 resident applicants waiting to get drawn here for 4.9% chance of being drawn.
2) removes the opportunity for lower success rate resident bowhunters from buying a general tag and hunting.

There is no actual harvest info in any of the numbers posted, just tag and allocation numbers.

Something is very wrong with they way residents are being treated.

Here is harvest data pulled from the report "Proposed Wildlife Management ChangeANTLERED MULE DEER ARCHERY TO DRAW - AESRD"

Based on three years of online surveys and some unknown srd magic ball massaging.
First line shows that archers had 100% of the harvest in 432 in 3 yrs. But oufitter have 9 allocations per year in 432 and the zone is general for resident mule deer, which apparently no one was successful.
Read: The numbers are bogus

[Thinlizzy]

Can someone start a poll to see if we should do what Sask does and have mule deer only open to residents?
Landowner tags should only be antlerless.
Other then that they should wait for a draw.
Sure there are some guys that get to go to Colorado and hunt mule deer but they are a small minority. We freeze and work up here why do they get to come every year and hunt the zone I have to wait five years for a draw?
Now I don't even get to hunt them with my bow? WTF?
I am happy that Brock can come up every year and shoot one but not me.
Sheep you are right its time to do something or shut up.
Even an Albertan with money can't hunt here every year. Something is really wrong with this. Really wrong.

[209x50]

To Deer Hunter.
Great numbers, good work. So I ask you should have the ABA did this work and took these facts to AGMAG or negociated a draw.?

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by 209x50

To Deer Hunter.
Great numbers, good work. So I ask you should have the ABA did this work and took these facts to AGMAG or negociated a draw.?

I didnt get invited to AGMAG, nor had these numbers then. How do you get invited to AGMAG?

These numbers should be public, accessible to all user and govt groups. But they are not. So im not sure I can answer your question.

[walking buffalo]

Thanks Deer Hunter, keep it coming.

Originally Posted by killerbren

I dont know if you guys got this in your email box about a week ago but this is from the alberta bowhunters association.



AGMAG Dec 5, 2012 Meeting Highlights


Separate archery draw regime – we presented strong arguments to implement a separate archery draw for antlered mule deer (and broaden that to other species/WMUs where you now need a draw to bowhunt them in archery seasons). We have preliminary support from some stakeholders for this idea. The current proposal suggests bowhunters will enter the general draw pool. The idea for a separate draw cannot happen for two years as the current draw system contract is almost up and tenders have been sent to two companies to rework/update the system.

ALL outfitter archery non-res allocations for antlered mule deer in these affected WMUs have been pulled. Can use one of their general mule deer allocations.

First....

ALL outfitter archery non-res allocations for antlered mule deer in these affected WMUs have been pulled. Can use one of their general mule deer allocations.

Outfitter General allocations (Class O) CAN be used in the Archery Season. If and only If the new Outfitter Allocation agreement includes a reduction in Total allocation will this have any effect.





Second....


If the proposal goes ahead as stated, AF&W will have effectively sold out the Archery 15% agreement!

For starters, non-archery hunters will now be able to use the archery allocation in the general season, effectively transferring the allocation use to General. Creating an Archery/General MD Draw effectively eliminates the Archery Only allocation!





Now let's consider a Archery hunter opportunity LOST in a WMU with an allocation for 15 Archery MD and 85 General MD.

In A separate Archery Draw ( 15 animals on allocation), Archery success rates of 20% allow for 75 Licences.

The corresponding General Draw (85 animals on allocation), Rifle success rates of 75% allow for 113 Licences.


In a Combined Archery/General Draw ( 100 animals on allocation), the success rates of 75% (rifle success rates) would have to be used, which allows for 133 Licences, all of which can be used during the rifle season.

Summarized- 100 Animal allocation

Archery Only Draw - 75 Licences
General Weapon Draw - 113 Licences
Total- 188 Licences

Or

Combined Archery/General Weapon Draw - 133 Licences


This is a 30% reduction in Resident Hunter Opportunity! And it is potentially a 100% loss of Archery Only Hunter Opportunity!





This issue is NOT a Mule Deer Conservation Concern!

There is no conservation concern need to apply a combined Archery/General weapon Draw just because of issues with IBM.


AF&W needs to consider holdling off on an Archery Draw until it can provide it as a separate Draw season! If that means waiting two years, then so be it. That's what we do with outfitter allocation, we wait until the appropraite change is possible when there is No Conservation Concern!

[killerbren]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Thanks Deer Hunter, keep it coming.








First....



Outfitter General allocations (Class O) CAN be used in the Archery Season. If and only If the new Outfitter Allocation agreement includes a reduction in Total allocation will this have any effect.





Second....


If the proposal goes ahead as stated, AF&W will have effectively sold out the Archery 15% agreement!

For starters, non-archery hunters will now be able to use the archery allocation in the general season, effectively transferring the allocation use to General. Creating an Archery/General MD Draw effectively eliminates the Archery Only allocation!





Now let's consider a Archery hunter opportunity LOST in a WMU with an allocation for 15 Archery MD and 85 General MD.

In A separate Archery Draw ( 15 animals on allocation), Archery success rates of 20% allow for 75 Licences.

The corresponding General Draw (85 animals on allocation), Rifle success rates of 75% allow for 113 Licences.


In a Combined Archery/General Draw ( 100 animals on allocation), the success rates of 75% (rifle success rates) would have to be used, which allows for 133 Licences, all of which can be used during the rifle season.

Summarized- 100 Animal allocation

Archery Only Draw - 75 Licences
General Weapon Draw - 113 Licences
Total- 188 Licences

Or

Combined Archery/General Weapon Draw - 133 Licences


This is a 30% reduction in Resident Hunter Opportunity! And it is potentially a 100% loss of Archery Only Hunter Opportunity!





This issue is NOT a Mule Deer Conservation Concern!

There is no conservation concern need to apply a combined Archery/General weapon Draw just because of issues with IBM.


AF&W needs to consider holdling off on an Archery Draw until it can provide it as a separate Draw season! If that means waiting two years, then so be it. That's what we do with outfitter allocation, we wait until the appropraite change is possible when there is No Conservation Concern!

This is an excellent point that I never even thought of! That is crap.

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

I didnt get invited to AGMAG, nor had these numbers then. How do you get invited to AGMAG?

These numbers should be public, accessible to all user and govt groups. But they are not. So im not sure I can answer your question.

You don't get invited to AGMAG you have to be there as a representative of a member group. I'd get these numbers in the hands of the groups on AGMAG that represent hunters right away. I'm sure they'd all be very appreciative and better informed for the next meeting.