Changes To Archery Mule Deer.

[super7mag]

I see the draw percentages along the border at close to 50%, most other zones around 15-20% of totals on draw. It also appears the voluntary survey does not work as well as the old phone in one. I wonder if archers are over the 15% from wmu 500 to 232. Or do they not count.

[ishootbambi]

we have seen it in a couple of threads here on AO over the last couple of weeks. srd biologists cant see to grasp the simplest of concepts....but any given determined member or two of the general public can get to work and make sense of some facts and explain it for the world to see. what the fark are we paying these people for exactly?

nice job deer hunter!

Originally Posted by duffy4

The people with Fish and Wildlife are trained professionals

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!! this gets my vote for funniest post of 2012.

[super7mag]

That quote may be a close second Bambi .
(What a derail) this is my vote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fordtruckin
I miss Moose!
Windage or elevation problems?

[wind drift]

I'm slow... I'm trying to sort out the info and understand the situation (and for clarity, I'm a bowhunter).

For the last couple of years, there's been lots of talk about how F&W is mismanaging mule deer by allowing too much harvest, the issue being brought to a head by the CWD response (which either was or wasn't necessary...history will judge) and a hard winter (which sucks but isn't predictable). Herd numbers and proportion of older deer decreased in many places, but the number of hunters seeking mule deer didn't decrease. So, the basic hunter complaint I've heard has been too few deer, especially, too few mature bucks. As a result, mule deer tag numbers get reduced (and they did, right?). Outfitter allocations didn't (or can't..at least right away) because they're locked within a 5 year agreement (but they either will or might, depending on how tough the fight is with APOS). Meanwhile, there's one user group that is not limited in number, and appears to be increasing, to which the harvest of mule deer is not insignificant, in some cases relatively high, and is likely going to increase (why wouldn't it?). Doesn't it make sense to bring this user group into the same management scheme as the others, in terms of the ability to limit participation, if not to deal with a current or imminent concern, then at least as a proactive measure to keep things from going off the rails?

In the big picture, why would this change be surprising to us? Alberta has almost 4 million people now. Even if the number of hunters stays at current levels for the foreseeable future, the human population is going to increase, bringing with it many reasons for increasing problems for mule deer (loss of habitat, road kills, etc.). What will Alberta and mule deer and mule deer hunting in Alberta be like in 10 years, 20 years? Or any game populations and hunting, for that matter? When will we reach 5 million...6 million folks? Will the number of hunters increase also? If even by 10%, that could be a huge difference. What will that mean? Looking down the road, should we be surprised if some day, all big game hunting is managed by draw, even whitetails?

Again, big picture-wise, by some measures, we could be experiencing the latter part of the "golden era" of big game hunting in Alberta, when game populations are relatively high, opportunities to hunt and harvest are relatively liberal compared to either the past (anyone remember the days when all you could get was 1 big game licence, good for only 1 of either moose, deer (whichever) or elk?) or a future with more human residents. Seems to me like it's been pretty good. Heck, in most recent years, I could legally kill 6 deer on general licences, in addition to whatever tags I drew. I'm thinking that I'd be naive to think it will stay this way for long.

If this is a successful outcome, I think our draw system could be credited with a goodly chunk of the reason for it.

I guess I'm saying that general archery opportunities for mule deer weren't going to last forever, regardless. One way or another, some time or another, it would have to change. Unless we can figure out how to hunt-and-release, hunting means killing and more hunters means more critters killed. Eventually, there will be too much killing from too much hunting by too many hunters. It will have to be managed. All forms of hunting will have to be managed, because it all adds up. In reality, there's no way that game species management can be anything other than hunter management. It could be that the time for managing bowhunter numbers is here or coming pretty soon enough anyway, and that part of the 'golden age' is ending.

I wonder...

[H380]

Very good post wind drift , some real thinking going on there .I don't think the real problem here is the fact that it is going on draw , more to the point of how SRD manges to get their facts and figures [ or don't , for that matter ] to put it there . . Like you , I believe the good old days are gone , sad to say . Will current management strategies and attitudes bring em back ? Can't see it happening . Maybe we should all do our best to get Deer Hunter a job with SRD to help em get their facts straight .

[sakogreywolf]

Agreed that wind drift's post is well thought out and true. However, along with questionable facts and figures, there is opposition to (if there has to be a draw) lumping bow hunting in with a rifle draw, when a seperate draw could be created for archery that would be much more suitable.

[duffy4]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

we have seen it in a couple of threads here on AO over the last couple of weeks. srd biologists cant see to grasp the simplest of concepts....but any given determined member or two of the general public can get to work and make sense of some facts and explain it for the world to see. what the fark are we paying these people for exactly?

nice job deer hunter!





LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!! this gets my vote for funniest post of 2012.

Do you have trouble understanding the concept of "trained professionals". I realize you disagree with some of the things they do and you have your own ideas as to what wildlife management should be about but they have education and experience and that is why they have been hired to do the job they do. I fail to see how that is so funny.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by duffy4

Do you have trouble understanding the concept of "trained professionals". I realize you disagree with some of the things they do and you have your own ideas as to what wildlife management should be about but they have education and experience and that is why they have been hired to do the job they do. I fail to see how that is so funny.

they have education....dont ever confuse that with intelligence....they are NOT the same thing. when it comes down to blatant disregard for known facts concerning some things....that is complete and total incompetence. when it comes to trying to make decisions to satisfy all groups, ill cut the some slack there, as it is impossible to satisfy everyone every time. i get that, but there are some extreme failures going onin this province at the moment. as i said, when concerned members of the general public can spend a couple of hours on a fact finding mission and show some real data proving srd bios absolutely wrong....that shows clearly that professional is a poor choice of words to describe some of them.

whats the most funny is that guys like you and a few others are so oblivious to the truth and blindly follow what these "gods" of srd have to say. you wont be bothered to read the info and just blindly trust that the "pros" are right. you would make a good union employee duff.....but most of us are able to think for ourselves.

[duffy4]

guys like you and a few others are so oblivious to the truth and blindly follow what these "gods" of srd have to say. you wont be bothered to read the info and just blindly trust that the "pros" are right.


Are you one of those "extremists" You disagree with something SRD did so they are "all a bunch of idiots"

And I point out they are trained professionals and you think that means I "follow what these "gods" of srd have to say"






but most of us are able to think for ourselves.

that is pretty funny in some ways.

But then this Kind of explains it.

the views expressed by isb are solely the views of dale allen, and probably shouldnt be taken too seriously. lighten up people....its the interweb for pete sake.

[H380]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

they have education....dont ever confuse that with intelligence....they are NOT the same thing. when it comes down to blatant disregard for known facts concerning some things....that is complete and total incompetence. when it comes to trying to make decisions to satisfy all groups, ill cut the some slack there, as it is impossible to satisfy everyone every time. i get that, but there are some extreme failures going onin this province at the moment. as i said, when concerned members of the general public can spend a couple of hours on a fact finding mission and show some real data proving srd bios absolutely wrong....that shows clearly that professional is a poor choice of words to describe some of them.

whats the most funny is that guys like you and a few others are so oblivious to the truth and blindly follow what these "gods" of srd have to say. you wont be bothered to read the info and just blindly trust that the "pros" are right. you would make a good union employee duff.....but most of us are able to think for ourselves.

Got it right ISB .. Don't ever confuse education with intelligence.. perfect . Pretty well sums up this entire problem .

[packhuntr]

This is entirely he problem some of us have been saying has exitEd for a long time fellas. Its nice to see we are no longer being chastized for it. Let the good times roll. Hopefully someone sort it out soon lol.

[trophyboy]

Plain and simple, mule deer should only be hunted by residents of Alberta and in turn should be managed properly within, which seems to be a concept that SRD can not understand.

ISB is 100% bang on; education from a textbook and actual intelligence are 2 completely different things.

[jryley]

Wind drift made a completely 'intelligent' post. As from what i can gather you fellas are basing your personal definitions of intelligence more on the effective use of common sense and fact......i have yet to see any of you post an 'intelligent' rebuttle to his post. Why is that? Is it because his 'intelligent' response holds true and goes against your mass petition to bar srd from holding an archery draw?

Get with the program boys. Ive said it before and ill say it again. Just because something is going to effect you personally doesnt mean its wrong. Everyones a conservationist until it effects them right? Sheesh

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by jryley

Wind drift made a completely 'intelligent' post. As from what i can gather you fellas are basing your personal definitions of intelligence more on the effective use of common sense and fact......i have yet to see any of you post an 'intelligent' rebuttle to his post. Why is that? Is it because his 'intelligent' response holds true and goes against your mass petition to bar srd from holding an archery draw?

Get with the program boys. Ive said it before and ill say it again. Just because something is going to effect you personally doesnt mean its wrong. Everyones a conservationist until it effects them right? Sheesh

His points most definitely are valid....the system as it is has large faults in it. One of those being the 5 year allocation.....with no safety net or "fail safes" in tough times. I don't think anyone can say that times haven't changed if you have hunted in this province for 10-15 years or longer like many residents have.

So next time Alberta has a horrible winter which destroys our cervid population in many areas and the resident tags are cut to very low numbers, I guess the people who aren't affected can continue business as usual. In business there are no "for sures"....I don't think any user groups should be immune to a sudden change in times....the resident hunters have experienced this and likely will again, the common man has no contracts....

If everyone was treated equally in tough times....(ie. resident tags cut by 25% then other user group cut by the same amount) then it would be an easier pill to swallow.

The other thing is outfitters are not bound to what they charge for a tag....so lets keep this simple....they usually get 10 tags, a freak winter hits and the allocation are cut in half....so now they have 5, what is stopping them from charging double?...people will pay, its supply and demand.

Truth be told I rarely hunt mule deer with the bow, I usually go after elk and white-tails BUT I see this as an opportunity lost if I decide I want to go after mule deer with the bow in the future....if that makes me selfish, then call me guilty.....

The other issue is that of the "data" and the quality of it that is being used to justify these changes....looking at some of the numbers posted by deerhunter it is really hard to swallow that kool-aid to.

LC

[jryley]

Lefty youre preaching for data, and at the same time chastizing srd for not using common sense. Sounds like smokescreens by the guys that take advantage of a system that allows a gaurunteed purchase of a mule tag solely based on utilizing a bow. That in itself is hypocritical.

Ever notice how the 'bow hunter purists' seem to be against ANY change that may inhibit their chance at harvesting an animal regardless of the situation? Cross bows, draw tags....do the fulltime archers truly give a }*#* about wildlife in this province? Or are they more concerned with their personal ease of opportunity and how many sets of horns they can send in to AO as a submission piece?

Lefty if you look at it as simply an opportunity lost then yes, thats selfish. I look at it that MAYBE, given the new regs, ill get a chance a true cranker in 7 years. And again, theres still general WT. hunting opportunity is not being lost...just the species on the tag. Its solely selfishness from certain self entitled individuals.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by jryley

Lefty youre preaching for data, and at the same time chastizing srd for not using common sense. Sounds like smokescreens by the guys that take advantage of a system that allows a gaurunteed purchase of a mule tag solely based on utilizing a bow. That in itself is hypocritical.

Ever notice how the 'bow hunter purists' seem to be against ANY change that may inhibit their chance at harvesting an animal regardless of the situation? Cross bows, draw tags....do the fulltime archers truly give a }*#* about wildlife in this province? Or are they more concerned with their personal ease of opportunity and how many sets of horns they can send in to AO as a submission piece?

Lefty if you look at it as simply an opportunity lost then yes, thats selfish. I look at it that MAYBE, given the new regs, ill get a chance a true cranker in 7 years. And again, theres still general WT. hunting opportunity is not being lost...just the species on the tag. Its solely selfishness from certain self entitled individuals.

Clearly some key points in my post stuck out for you....read over my post again but this time include the context around what you pulled out....it might make sense to you then This is my opinion on the matter....so if you happen to disagree then so be it. Because really what you and I have to say on this amounts to a hill of nothing.

I do not feel self entitled at all, I am saddened that this change is looked at as the ONLY RESORT?....I think certain hunting "industries" sure as heck do though. If they cared about "populations" and "futures" do you think they might want to announce as an organization that they would self impose a allocation reduction? When residents hold less than 50% of the tags in an area and in some areas less than 30% why go after that user group only, my message is spread the love...in the name of management instead of creating further divisions.

Did you happoen to see deerhunters compilation of numbers?

Do you hunt with a bow? rifle? bit of both?

LC

[jryley]

Ya i think you took my post as a finger pointed at you....which its not. I was speaking in more general terms. I agree on outfitter allocations 100%!!! BUT...along with an archery mule draw. Ive said many times, we needto do EVERYTHING we can to improve the situation as it stands. Simply standing behind a different 'ya but these guys are doing this' arguement will accomplish nothing. Mule archery is on draw, next step we as a group must accomplish is outfitter tags.

I will stay with my comments of self entitled from some people. Pottys response to a simikiar statement was 'acrually only 1 of 3 of
My zones is on draw so im fine'....or along those lines. Thats a d:&k way of saying 'i got my way, im happy, case closed'. Its absolutely self entitlement and it disgusts me. The day we all get together as a
Group and take one collective bullet as a team of outdoorsmen is the day we actually accomplish something. Until then the snobs will argue with the snobs and the other snobs and the other snobs.

[Lefty-Canuck]

I agree with you....simply saying, "well WMU XXX didn't get affected and that is where I hunt so it is ok" ....is some pretty short sighted thinking.

LC

[duffy4]

At one time ALL hunters bought their mule deer tags at the counter.

Then the bow hunters had to pay a bit for a bow hunting licence and for it they got some early seasons and at first an extra tag good for any ungulate.

Then mule deer went on a draw in some areas BUTR archery hunters got special treatment and did not need a draw because they were not expected to kill many and didn't.

NOW the demand for mule deer hunting has gone up and the archery kill has gone up and so it is proposed that archery hunters will have to hold a draw permit.

Just another change in wildlife management and allocation of the resource.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by jryley

Wind drift made a completely 'intelligent' post. As from what i can gather you fellas are basing your personal definitions of intelligence more on the effective use of common sense and fact......i have yet to see any of you post an 'intelligent' rebuttle to his post. Why is that?

if this was aimed at me, i wont rebut it for a very simple reason. if you have seen anything regarding this topic from me, you will have noticed that i agree that there are some zones that are above the allowable harvest. i dont think the math srd is using makes any sense, but there is no doubt some zones that need changes. in fact, a couple that arent slated for the draw where i live....i suspect maybe should be. the poor math leads me to believe that some scheduled to go to draw maybe shouldnt. the calculation is flawed.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by duffy4;1760341
Are you one of those "[B

extremists[/B]" You disagree with something SRD did so they are "all a bunch of idiots"

you show yet again, that reading comprehension is a struggle for you.......

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

when it comes to trying to make decisions to satisfy all groups, ill cut the some slack there, as it is impossible to satisfy everyone every time. i get that,


.that shows clearly that professional is a poor choice of words to describe some of them.

.

[packhuntr]

Suppose now that its been established that a dead mule deer resource is all that srd desires,,,, even if a guy draws a mule deer tag, our early season archery experiences will be likely infiltrated by a bunch of guys packin xbows in open country, steam rolling everything alive with a shouldered and shot weapon. Shes a hell of a deal. And for anyone that wants to debate xguns vs archery go somewhere else and argue, after picking one up brand new and day one watching the kids shooting fist sized groups at 50 like its a 22-250. Shes a hell of a mess, and all the while issues that need attention are ignored/forgotten.

[Dacotensis]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Suppose now that its been established that a dead mule deer resource is all that srd desires,,,, even if a guy draws a mule deer tag, our early season archery experiences will be likely infiltrated by a bunch of guys packin xbows in open country, steam rolling everything alive with a shouldered and shot weapon. Shes a hell of a deal. And for anyone that wants to debate xguns vs archery go somewhere else and argue, after picking one up brand new and day one watching the kids shooting fist sized groups at 50 like its a 22-250. Shes a hell of a mess, and all the while issues that need attention are ignored/forgotten.

There is irony in this post.
"Don't debate me" he says! "here is what I'm sayin, I don't want to hear what you have to say"!
You've been around here long enough to know how this forum works, right?
Fist sized groups at 50?By children? I need a new x bow it seems, or I need to lose 30 years.
Sorry fella, you can't begin to blame x bows for the mess created on MD.
Start with the basics, cut out landowner tags for antlered md, cut out any outfitter tags for areas on draw to the general public.
If you are willing to cut out outfillter tags and nra tags, we can talk about x bows.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by jryley

Lefty youre preaching for data, and at the same time chastizing srd for not using common sense. Sounds like smokescreens by the guys that take advantage of a system that allows a gaurunteed purchase of a mule tag solely based on utilizing a bow. That in itself is hypocritical.

Ever notice how the 'bow hunter purists' seem to be against ANY change that may inhibit their chance at harvesting an animal regardless of the situation? Cross bows, draw tags....do the fulltime archers truly give a }*#* about wildlife in this province? Or are they more concerned with their personal ease of opportunity and how many sets of horns they can send in to AO as a submission piece?

Lefty if you look at it as simply an opportunity lost then yes, thats selfish. I look at it that MAYBE, given the new regs, ill get a chance a true cranker in 7 years. And again, theres still general WT. hunting opportunity is not being lost...just the species on the tag. Its solely selfishness from certain self entitled individuals.

Bowhunters main reason for not wanting xbows, was knowing that mule deer and moose would end up going on draw. You want to talk about smoke screens....why is it that esrd is still put moose on draw and now is looking at mule deer ? When...

They said xbows numbers would definitely cause things to go on draw. A year later, no xbows and we still are going on draw. They won't give us access to information or stats. And we have the Aba rolling over and negotiating draws, instead of fighting for bowhunters, and the info....does this not concern anyone else..

[jryley]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

if this was aimed at me, i wont rebut it for a very simple reason. if you have seen anything regarding this topic from me, you will have noticed that i agree that there are some zones that are above the allowable harvest. i dont think the math srd is using makes any sense, but there is no doubt some zones that need changes. in fact, a couple that arent slated for the draw where i live....i suspect maybe should be. the poor math leads me to believe that some scheduled to go to draw maybe shouldnt. the calculation is flawed.

No ISB. It was not directed at you. I actually enjoy your posts. Youre one
Of the guys that seems to be relativelly level headed. It was more of a general comment towards a group. No harm intended.

In the end, again as i said, until all groups (rifle, bow, xbow, slug, muzzle etc etc) put their differences aside and take a short term loss for the benefit of all hunters nothing will actually be accomplished.

Rifle tags get cut back and the rifle guys lose their minds and create an issue. Bow guys get tags cut back and they do the same. Outfitters face losing tags and they lose it. And so forth and so forth. Its a cyclical pattern that seems to lead no where. The common theme is 'Conservation until it effects me'. Whether a strategy is going to do anything isnt relative, thats my point. To achieve a common goal we all need to take the good with the bad to optically make it 'fair'.

For the record to all of you. I feel the true issue is outfitter allocations. There, ive said it. BUT....i feel knocking back all allocations is vital in the sense that it will FINALLY give archers and rifle guys a common ground to pursue the outfitter issue. Strength in numbers so to say. Exhausting every option before tackling the big one i feel is the only way to get SRD's head out of their rears. Otherwise youre only ever going to hear 'well we should try this first, well lets try this instead, well how about this?'. We need to accept the dark times to force the governing bodies (SRD, APOS) to see the light boys.

Can you imagine the impact it could potentially make if bow hunters, rifleman, and all the other groups put a legitimate push as a collective unit of outdoorsmen to push APOS into the dirt? These guys arent dumb as you would call it. They know that all they need to do is shut up each group on an annual basis. 'Take care of the archers problems in 2013....thatll shut em up. Then we will shut the rifle guys up in 2014, while planning our blockade of APOS in 2015'. They arent dumb! They work the system like i do with my wife after coming off a 4 day bender!

As a group, we all need to find a common theme boys!

[packhuntr]

Jryley, you are so far off its almost embarrasing. Collectively singing campfire songs will NOT fix the issues you are mistakingly envisioning as menial. Hows this for a common theme Jryley. Instead of SRD being sneaky and manipulating things (as usual) by killing this archery hunt in attempt to kill more deer, why not leave as is for 2 years while instituting mandatory 2 year arch mule registration. Good opportunity to get a solid idea of whats going on completely shot because of incompetence. Additionally i disagree about allocations. There should be resources enough that afew opportunities for outsiders should exist. Sure that situation needs a potential facelift, but i wont jump on the bandwagon that is crying over a handful of tags, not when these animals are being rifle-shot, clean off the alberta landscape by kill hungry residents looking to annually empty thier deer tag swelled pockets. I dont dislike people for thier view on this, but i wont agree that a small percentage of archers and afew non res aliens are what is going wrong here.

[jryley]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Jryley, you are so far off its almost embarrasing. Collectively singing campfire songs will NOT fix the issues you are mistakingly envisioning as menial. Hows this for a common theme Jryley. Instead of SRD being sneaky and manipulating things (as usual) by killing this archery hunt in attempt to kill more deer, why not leave as is for 2 years while instituting mandatory 2 year arch mule registration. Good opportunity to get a solid idea of whats going on completely shot because of incompetence. Additionally i disagree about allocations. There should be resources enough that afew opportunities for outsiders should exist. Sure that situation needs a potential facelift, but i wont jump on the bandwagon that is crying over a handful of tags, not when these animals are being rifle-shot, clean off the alberta landscape by kill hungry residents looking to annually empty thier deer tag swelled pockets. I dont dislike people for thier view on this, but i wont agree that a small percentage of archers and afew non res aliens are what is going wrong here.

Lol pack, since ive been a registered user on this forum youve proven to be nothing more than an arrogant poster. I could care less what brutal rhetoric you post going forward. Thanks for the effort though. Continue sticky up for number 1. Ill continue voting for the collective good.

[flyguyd]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

. not when these animals are being rifle-shot, clean off the alberta landscape by kill hungry residents looking to annually empty thier deer tag swelled pockets. I dont dislike people for thier view on this, but i wont agree that a small percentage of archers and afew non res aliens are what is going wrong here.

Really

Youve killed more mulies with your bow in the last 4 yrs than i have in 20 with a rifle and i know of many more archers with a better record than that, you wanna point fingers ,turn that bad boy around and point it at yourself.

I waited 5-6 yrs for a rifle tag and hunted virtually every day. I never found what i was looking for and took a genetic dud out of the gene pool on the last day. Im not kill hungry nor do i think most of the draw tags that wait a minimum of 4 yrs are either.

Ive not seen many genetic duds in a yearly archery field photo

[packhuntr]

You keep voting for your idea of collective good then Jryley, good job. What a difference,, wow what a relief when its ran completely flat into the ground eh! Lolol

Flyguyd. Im simpathetic, its unfortunate that you were not able to nor have apparently ever been able to come up with a deer in what WAS one of the best places to find big deer. Was and is it still bowhunters holding you back, or lack of competence in the field?

All this talk of NOTHING is very detracting. Some guys dont see whats going on and I just dont get it.

[flyguyd]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

You keep voting for your idea of collective good then Jryley, good job. What a difference,, wow what a relief when its ran completely flat into the ground eh! Lolol

Flyguyd. Im simpathetic, its unfortunate that you were not able to nor have apparently ever been able to come up with a deer in what WAS one of the best places to find big deer. Was and is it still bowhunters holding you back, or lack of competence in the field?

All this talk of NOTHING is very detracting. Some guys dont see whats going on and I just dont get it.

Still is; just check out all the pics on the bowhunting threads....lol
No lack of competence here, Ive snuck up on big mulies just for fun, it aint that hard.I just dont think i have the right too shoot one every year, i dont think its fair to the population.

I saw lots of large mature bucks, just not the nice clean 190in typical i was looking for. i did however see several 170-200in framed bucks on the thousands of acres controlled by the local OUTFITTER.

Hey im not really complaining the buck i took was an old mature deer and i had a month of great hunting, only 6 more years and i can do it again