Best shotgun ammunition for bear defence

[OostinD]

I'm trying to decide on the best ammunition to use for defense. I live in eastern Canada and we don't get any kind of brown bear here, so this would be mostly for black bear. Moose is also a consideration.

After a bit of googling it seems slugs would be more effective than buckshot. The selection of slugs around here is a bit limited (I don't believe you can order ammunition online, can you?) so I was hoping someone would be able to tell me from this list what would be good to use and what would not.

This is for a mossberg 500 with an 18" barrel. These are all 12 gauge rifled slugs:
(They may not all be available, it's just what I saw on the website)

Winchester PDX1 Defender Segmented Slugs - 2 3/4" - 1 OZ slug
Kent 10 Point / FiveStar Deer Slugs - 2 3/4" or 3" - 1 OZ slug
Winchester SuperX Value Slugs - 2 3/4" or 3" - 1 OZ slug
Remington Slugger Slugs - 2 3/4" or 3" - 1 OZ slug
Challenger Magnum Slugs - 2 3/4" - 1 1/8 OZ slug
Federal TRUBALL Slugs - 2 3/4" or 3" - 1 OZ slug

I would lean towards the Challenger slugs, however they only list them in 2 3/4". I have heard mixed reviews about the Remington Sluggers, some say they penetrate very well and some say they penetrate poorly. Thank you for any help.

[purgatory.sv]

No simple answer, remember enjoy the outdoors, respect it don’t be afraid.

http://quoteinvestigator.com/2016/11/10/bear-eats/
quoteinvestigator.com
Sometimes You Eat the Bear, and Sometimes the Bear Eats You
by garson

Ralph Waldo Emerson? Sam Elliott? Ethan Coen? Joel Coen? Bertrand W. Sinclair? Carl O. Sauer? Roger Penske? Jim Croce? Preacher Roe? Anonymous?

bears10Dear Quote Investigator: There is a family of ursine sayings about the topsy-turvy vicissitudes of life:

1) Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you.
2) Sometimes you hunt the bear, and sometimes the bear hunts you.
3) Sometimes you get the bear, and sometimes the bear gets you.

A version of the first statement was spoken during the 1998 movie “The Big Lebowski” whose screenplay was written by the Coen brothers. Would you please examine the provenance of this family?

Dear Quote Investigator: An interesting precursor was included in an essay titled “Farming” published in an 1870 collection by the influential transcendentalist thinker Ralph Waldo Emerson. The early human diet included foods derived from plants and animals, but hunting megafauna was a dangerous endeavor. Emerson described a beleaguered primal figure. Emphasis added to excerpts by QI: 1

He is a poor creature; he scratches with a sharp stick, lives in a cave or a hutch, has no road but the trail of the moose or bear; he lives on their flesh when he can kill one, on roots and fruits when he cannot. He falls, and is lame; he coughs, he has a stitch in his side, he has a fever and chills: when he is hungry, he cannot always kill and eat a bear;—chances of war,—sometimes the bear eats him.

Emerson’s essays were reprinted in many editions during the ensuing decades, and QI believes the passage above probably facilitated the emergence of the modern adage.

Another precursor appeared in an item printed in an Alexandria, Louisiana newspaper in 1894. The two-fold contingent nature of encounters with bears was highlighted: 2

The farmers of this community are about done gathering their crops, and many of them are now in the woods gathering up their hogs. Some of them so engaged a few days ago ran across a bear in Calcasieu swamp so the first question asked now when they return from the swamp is, “Did you get the bear, or did the bear get you?”

Below are additional selected citations in chronological order.

In 1904 a version of the saying with the verb “to hunt” appeared in a tale by the author Bertrand W. Sinclair that was published in multiple newspapers including one in McConnellsburg, Pennsylvania: 3

“Bear huntin’ don’t always turn out just the way you’ve got it figured,” volunteered Jack Gordon from his perch on the top rail of the horse corral. “Sometimes you hunt the bear, and sometimes the bear hunts you—and once in a while extraneous circumstances as the Professor calls ’em, hops in and mixes things up in good shape.”

In 1912 “The Arizona Republican” of Phoenix, Arizona printed under the title “Agriculture’s Evolutions” an excerpt from Emerson’s “Farming” essay that included the remark about bears: 4

…when he is hungry, he cannot always kill and eat a bear—chances of war—sometimes the bear eats him.

In 1939 a textbook titled “Man in Nature: America Before the Days of the White Men” by the prominent Berkeley Professor of Geography Carl O. Sauer included an instance using the verb “to get”: 5

Usually the bear tries to get away from the man. The Eskimo like the warm fur and the meat and fat of the bear, and so usually, the man gets the bear. But sometimes the bear gets the man. A polar bear weighs as much as a half dozen Eskimo and he is as strong as a half dozen men.

In 1960 the adage using the verb “to get” was labeled an “old saying” when it appeared in newspapers in Dover, Ohio 6 and New Philadelphia, Ohio: 7

“Some days you get the bear, and some days the bear gets you.” This is an old saying of hunters…

In 1963 the successful automobile racer Roger Penske was profiled in the pages of “Sports Illustrated”. At that time he was a sales engineer for the aluminum company Alcoa, and he later became a celebrated racing team owner: 8

“You got to capitalize on this thing while you can. One day you eat the bear, one day the bear eats you. I’ll get out of racing when it becomes too great a liability to the company, when I’m worth something. Down deep I’m trying to exploit this thing as much as I can. Why shouldn’t I?

In 1964 the adage appeared in a Long Beach, California newspaper; once again the saying was used in the auto racing domain: 9

“In drag racing, there is saying ‘sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes the bear eats you,’ which otherwise means you win a few close ones and you lose a few close ones”

In 1966 a beauty pageant winner from Wisconsin received congratulatory messages together with a note providing a larger perspective: 10

One of the telegrams was from her brother Terry, a student at Notre Dame University, warning: “Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you.”

In 1972 the popular singer-songwriter Jim Croce was profiled in the “Los Angeles Times”, and the newspaper shared a line from one of his songs: 11

Croce’s songs are not complicated and the lyrics do not form a one-to-one relationship with the people he has met during his travels. Each song, however, is a fine mood piece. A good example is one entitled “Hard Time Losin’ Man” which has a quick, rocky melody coupled with the words, “And sometimes they say you eat the bear/But sometimes the bear eats you.”

In 1985 the saying was assigned to Elwin Charles Roe, a.k.a., Preacher Roe who was a professional baseball pitcher active from the 1930s through the 1950s: 12

Former major leaguer Preacher Roe said it best: “Some days you eat the bear; some days the bear eats you. Yesterday, the bear ate us.”

In 1998 the movie “The Big Lebowski” written and directed by Ethan Coen and Joel Coen was released. A sage character played by Sam Elliott and referred to as The Stranger employed the saying. He had a strong accent; hence, the word “bear” was pronounced as “bar”. A drink was served to The Stranger while he was pronouncing the modern proverb, thus the phrase “much obliged” was interjected in the monologue: 13

Well, a wiser fellow than myself once said, “Sometimes you eat the b’ar — much obliged — sometimes the b’ar, why, he eats you.”

In conclusion, this article presents a snapshot of research on this family of sayings. Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote an interesting precursor with “eat” that appeared within a book by 1870. The sayings evolved over multiple decades, and the transition to proverbial form has been difficult to pinpoint. An instance with “hunt” was printed in 1904. An instance with “get” appeared by 1939, and it was labeled an old saying by 1960. An adage with “eat” appeared by 1963.

Image Notes: Pictures of polar bears and brown bears from skeeze at Pixabay. Images have been cropped and resized.

(Great thanks to Sandra Ikuta whose inquiry led QI to formulate this question and perform this exploration. Thanks to the 2004 ADS mailing list discussants including: Barry Popik, Wilson Gray, Susan Yerkes, Rima McKinzey, and Laurence Horn. Thanks to the 2010 mailing list discussants including: Arnold Zwicky, Laurence Horn, Mark Mandel, and Charles Doyle. In addition, thanks to Doyle et al for the entry in “The Dictionary of Modern Proverbs”, and thanks to Doyle for verifying the 1939 citation. Also, gratitude to Barry Popik for his further valuable research.)

[Sneeze]

Speaking from experience of having been charged by a Grizzly, slug would be almost useless.

I was shaking so bad that bird shot spreader load would have been best for actually connecting with the animal.

Honestly, I would use BBB's for bear defense. Using a single projectile, from the hip, on short notice while you are pooing your pants seems like poor odds.

At least with BBB's or T, a few might catch him good as he is slurping up your intestines like spaghetti and he will die there on top of you. On your tombstone they will write "Bear Slayer" or something equally cool.

[WHITIEY]

I would say if you expect close incounters and the shot gun is your choise of arms, i would use two 3inch buckshot with a slug to follow up.

[JD848]

****ing of a big bear with bbb may and will really make that bear go nuts and then in your trouble,avoid bears and do everything you can to chase him away,as far as slugs challenger makes a good slug if you feel the need,IFyour not being charged don't pepper no bear with anything,always try aim for the center of the head and 90 percent of the time you will break his back when charging you head on and you will have no time to think it over,better to be lucky than good when there six feet away coming forty miles and hour.

[colroggal]

Heavy hard cast lead. Velocity and penetration do not go hand in hand

Colin

[wildbill]

Score slugs, cheap and effective: Brenneke style, better than the badminton birdy style foster slug

[Richard B.]

check Brobee's You Tube Channel as he has done some testing on slugs

[OostinD]

purgatory.sv, I'm sorry but I'm not going to read your novel sized copy and pasted... um... I'm not sure what I would call that.

Sneeze, as stated before I do not have Grizzly in my neck of the woods. I do, however, have black bear, and they do reserve respect. I would far sooner pepper spray a bear than use shot, which is something I do carry with me. And no, I am not a stunt actor shooting from the hip like Terminator. But I have to admit, Bear Slayer would be pretty cool on my tombstone [/sarcasm].

WHITIEY, shotgun seems to be my best choice for self defence. It is unlikely that I will need to defend myself at long range. I've considered buckshot, are there certain brands which you would recommend?

JD848, I completely agree with you. Thank you for the center of the head tip. I've heard good things about Challenger slugs, but do you think a 2 3/4" Challenger would still be more lethal than a 3" of any of the others mentioned?

colroggal, from my understanding with bear defence, penetration is more important than expansion, which would favour harder lead. Which of the slugs mentioned would you recommend?

wildbill, Brenneke would have been my first choice, but unfortunately they are unavailable in my area.

[wildbill]

Originally Posted by OostinD

purgatory.sv, I'm sorry but I'm not going to read your novel sized copy and pasted... um... I'm not sure what I would call that.

Sneeze, as stated before I do not have Grizzly in my neck of the woods. I do, however, have black bear, and they do reserve respect. I would far sooner pepper spray a bear than use shot, which is something I do carry with me. And no, I am not a stunt actor shooting from the hip like Terminator. But I have to admit, Bear Slayer would be pretty cool on my tombstone [/sarcasm].

WHITIEY, shotgun seems to be my best choice for self defence. It is unlikely that I will need to defend myself at long range. I've considered buckshot, are there certain brands which you would recommend?

JD848, I completely agree with you. Thank you for the center of the head tip. I've heard good things about Challenger slugs, but do you think a 2 3/4" Challenger would still be more lethal than a 3" of any of the others mentioned?

colroggal, from my understanding with bear defence, penetration is more important than expansion, which would favour harder lead. Which of the slugs mentioned would you recommend?

wildbill, Brenneke would have been my first choice, but unfortunately they are unavailable in my area.

Benneke "style" young Jedi, not actual Benneke's, but rather Score made by Prarie Shot LTD in Carberry Manitoba 12 gauge 2-3/4" 1-1/8 oz (32g) 1500fps they were on sale at WSS when I bought them last Spring box of 25. They work.

[purgatory.sv]

Originally Posted by OostinD

purgatory.sv, I'm sorry but I'm not going to read your novel sized copy and pasted... um... I'm not sure what I would call that.

Sneeze, as stated before I do not have Grizzly in my neck of the woods. I do, however, have black bear, and they do reserve respect. I would far sooner pepper spray a bear than use shot, which is something I do carry with me. And no, I am not a stunt actor shooting from the hip like Terminator. But I have to admit, Bear Slayer would be pretty cool on my tombstone [/sarcasm].

WHITIEY, shotgun seems to be my best choice for self defence. It is unlikely that I will need to defend myself at long range. I've considered buckshot, are there certain brands which you would recommend?

JD848, I completely agree with you. Thank you for the center of the head tip. I've heard good things about Challenger slugs, but do you think a 2 3/4" Challenger would still be more lethal than a 3" of any of the others mentioned?

colroggal, from my understanding with bear defence, penetration is more important than expansion, which would favour harder lead. Which of the slugs mentioned would you recommend?

wildbill, Brenneke would have been my first choice, but unfortunately they are unavailable in my area.

Troll bait, just trying to be polite.

Have a good new year.

[densa44]

I have a bear banger, it is about the size of a fountain pen and bear spray. So far I haven't had to use either. I do my very best to see the bear first.

I've heard that the spray is very effective but to be honest if one was charging at me I wouldn't feel very safe with either.

[purgatory.sv]

Originally Posted by OostinD

I'm trying to decide on the best ammunition to use for defense. I live in eastern Canada and we don't get any kind of brown bear here, so this would be mostly for black bear. Moose is also a consideration.

After a bit of googling it seems slugs would be more effective than buckshot. The selection of slugs around here is a bit limited (I don't believe you can order ammunition online, can you?) so I was hoping someone would be able to tell me from this list what would be good to use and what would not.

This is for a mossberg 500 with an 18" barrel. These are all 12 gauge rifled slugs:
(They may not all be available, it's just what I saw on the website)

Winchester PDX1 Defender Segmented Slugs - 2 3/4" - 1 OZ slug
Kent 10 Point / FiveStar Deer Slugs - 2 3/4" or 3" - 1 OZ slug
Winchester SuperX Value Slugs - 2 3/4" or 3" - 1 OZ slug
Remington Slugger Slugs - 2 3/4" or 3" - 1 OZ slug
Challenger Magnum Slugs - 2 3/4" - 1 1/8 OZ slug
Federal TRUBALL Slugs - 2 3/4" or 3" - 1 OZ slug

I would lean towards the Challenger slugs, however they only list them in 2 3/4". I have heard mixed reviews about the Remington Sluggers, some say they penetrate very well and some say they penetrate poorly. Thank you for any help.

[QUOTE=purgatory.sv;3434751]No simple answer, remember enjoy the outdoors, respect it don’t be afraid.




No problem the link and paste is an option…

The text is an abbreviation of the link.

I apologise for my inappropriate answer.

My opening sentence was a true answer.

[Dean2]

If you want to use a shotgun, and that would not be my choice, I prefer a Marlin 45-70 guide gun, stick to slugs of the Breneke style. Bird shot and Buckshot do NOT penetrate good enough to do anything but pizz off the bear, black or grizz.

Bear Spray would be my first deployed defence but if that didn't turn him or it was showing predatory behaviour then the best way to kill them dead is big bore holes with deep penetration. 45/70 with 350 grain Hornady RN at about 1800 fps does that better than anything else I have tried on bear, and I have tried pretty much everything there is from 243 through 460 Weatherby and everything in between.

I would take any 30 calibre or larger rifle for bear over a shotgun any time, even a 30-30.

[Stinky Buffalo]

Originally Posted by purgatory.sv

No problem the link and paste is an option…

The text is an abbreviation of the link.

I apologise for my inappropriate answer.

My opening sentence was a true answer.

Aw, Purg! it's all good. Your posts often make me smile.

You're right, the first line is truth to the topic.

All you needed to add is "FIRE!"

[Sneeze]

Originally Posted by OostinD

And no, I am not a stunt actor shooting from the hip like Terminator. But I have to admit, Bear Slayer would be pretty cool on my tombstone [/sarcasm].

Not sure why the sarcasm. I am telling you something from experience. If a black bear is pestering your bird watching group a bear banger is what you want.

For last ditch defence against bears, you minus well just throw darts in the dark. A charging black bear would cover 30 metres before the human brain would identify it, and make the decision to shoot it. Add in the time it takes to draw, cock and fire - oh boy. If you are comfortable that you can hit a pie plate with a slug at 10 yards with your heart rate going 190 beats per minute and pee leaking down your leg - with only a fraction of a second to aim. Go for it.

My point is, shooting from the hip might be a choice you don't get to make.

[WHITIEY]

I use 3 inch Imperial buckshot for the sole purpose to deter the bear, The slug is aiso imperial brand, is to kill the bear if the buckshot did not turn the bear.I have been guiding and baiting bear in eastern Ont for over 35 years and i have not yet had to kill a bear in self defence. I. think what most people fail to take into consideration is the real danger occures when there is multiple bears. Kinda leaves you with only one good option.

[stob]

practice shooting old 10pin bowling balls rolled down a steep hill at you... it will let you know where you stand or where you shouldn't stand

[Bitumen Bullet]

Originally Posted by Sneeze

.... A charging black bear would cover 30 metres before the human brain would identify it, ....

There are situations where you get eaten.

As pointed out I would also suggest know yourself, or at least your body. Experience helps with that.

Will your body be dumping adrenalin, racing your heart, lowing your cognitive abilities, making any previous plans useless? I know in some situations that's exactly what happens to me and it is never good.

Lucky for me that has never happened when dealing with bears or more recently an aggressive cow moose. I tend to go calm and focused, if anything too focused but without the adrenaline I can remind myself to look around if moving is acceptable. Other situations have been very different and I cannot count on being able to do anything properly. Know yourself and plan for that.

I don't see Black Bears as a big threat. They are around my place sometimes and we do take precautions but when it comes to bears I tend to respect the bigger ones more. The big ones are never prey and I think that makes them fearless. Black bears always seem to be more fearful and can be scared away (jinx, now I'll get killed by a BB I just know it).

Bangers or shellcrakers can work. Been a while since I practiced with them but with practice you can put them pretty close to where you want them to go off.

I saw a bean bag used to move a polar bear. The Wildlife Officer obviously had some practice as he lobbed it a bit and had it hit the bear in middle of the hind haunch. Bear took off in exactly the right direction out of town and at high speed. Apparently that isn't always what they do but I was young and easily impressed.

Of course those rounds are not really for defense as much as bear control.

If in an area where bears are known to be, and likely to be aggressive, like a Polar Bear denning area I've traveled through on occasion, you'll not want your Mossberg 500 loaded with bangers and bean bags. Personally I wouldn't want a slide action for bear defense. I preferred a single shot loaded with a slug from a pack I've already used. I want to know it will work, no complicated safeties or triggers, KISS with known ammo so the firearm is of no concern when it is needed but to each their own. Nothing says you can't have more than one gun and it's common in bear areas for a shot gun or handgun being carried for a rapid response and a larger rifle being handy for hunting or back up.

If using the Mossberg I like the idea of trying to shoot gallon bottles with a little bit of ice frozen in them so they tend to wobble down hill. I know if I tried that right now I think those bottles would be pretty safe as I tend to short stroke or fire off too early when in a rush. How much of a problem that is depends on recovery time...wait we still talking about shotguns?

[SouthernCalm]

Hey
You can order ammunition online and get it shipped to your physical address. PO box won't work. Living far out in the country can make this tricky. I have used the Winchester super x value in all my shotguns that are slug capable (cylender bore). I like them and they are cheap to shoot. I think any slug is sufficient for your use. I have also used the PDX-1's... on wood and trees... Devestating. Have fun!

Sent from my SM-G925W8 using Tapatalk

[wheeler]

Either 3 1/2" Slugs or Hevi Shot Hog Wild 3 1/2" 3 ball .625oz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Coiloil37]

I've got a couple boxes of brenneke slugs I would use if I'm packing a shotgun. I got mine from ammosupply, shipped straight to my door.

[super7mag]

I have not stopped a charging bear so take it for what it is worth, but I agree with sneeze on a moving target with a single projectile, your odds are not in your favour.
I have shot HeviShots Dead Coyote load of 3-1/2" T shot and at under 5 yrds it would be a quite dense shot pattern, and the heavy T shot penetrates really good. At point blank 10' or so it would be as dense as a slug. IMO.

[buck403]

Bear bangers are useless. Use spray. The bangers shoot far so if he's closer and it goes past him and goes off behind him he's coming right to you.

[winmag]

12 gauge ssg or oo buck and a sawed off pump or semi or a coach gun for close encounters[ i like the coach], quick handling and lethal as long as you can see him or her coming first, if you fear for your life the shot might be under ten feet the more projectiles the more contac the more deterrent

[Dean2]

For all of those who have posted and doubt their ability to hit a charging bear, stick to bear spray, buy two cans. Using shot because you think it spreads and offsets your lack of accuracy is absolutely the WRONG option. Shot closer than 20 feet is still just over bore size, so single projectile accurate but even if you hit with it it WILL NOT penetrate a bear. Shoot some 00 buck into ballistic gelatin and see how little it penetrates, and smaller shot penetrates even worse. A Bears hide and meat/bones are significantly denser than ballistic gelatin. Even slugs on bear facing straight on will often only penetrate 10" and this is from actual results on bear, not gelatin. It is why I strongly prefer a rifle.

For people who aren't absolutely proficient with a firearm, Bear Spray has been long proven to be a far more effective defence than handguns, shotguns or rifles.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...arious-rounds/

[3blade]

I load the challengers in mine. Did plenty of research and that's as close as we get to brenneke performance.

Fwiw, the Alaska wildlife troopers use brenneke slugs in both 870's or benelli m4's (14 inch barrel version). I'd suggest that group has a fair bit of experience dealing with problem wildlife and frequently investigate carcasses/gutpiles in coastal brown bear territory.

Nothing wrong with any 30 cal or better rifle, so long as you are using ammunition designed for penetration. Soft lead slugs or deer hunting bullets will not perform as well on heavy bone. Agree with colroggal, this scenario does not favor velocity. Heavy, hard, wide projectiles will be best.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by 3blade

I load the challengers in mine. Did plenty of research and that's as close as we get to brenneke performance.

Challengers are close but if you buy Rottweil Exact brand slugs, which are available here in Canada, you can get exact copies of the Breneke slug. I have been using them for years and out of a non-rifled barrel they are far and away the best slug for accuracy and penetration.



https://rws-munition.de/en/rws-hunti...rs.html#!4/0/0

[Bitumen Bullet]

Originally Posted by buck403

Bear bangers are useless....The bangers shoot far so if he's closer and it goes past him and goes off behind him he's coming right to you.

That's lack of practice and adrenaline, know yourself and the difference between bear control and defense.

[3blade]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Challengers are close but if you buy Rottweil Exact brand slugs, which are available here in Canada, you can get exact copies of the Breneke slug. I have been using them for years and out of a non-rifled barrel they are far and away the best slug for accuracy and penetration.

I know there were some stores in bc/out east that occasionally had them but never did find any in stock or online when I was looking. Have enough challengers for a whole herd of raging grizzly's, so I lost interest in the search.

At one point brenekke USA was rumored to be pursuing a Canadian importer, any word on if that happened?