Advantges of super precision reloading

[gitrdun]

The gun is a. 223 Savage 12FVSS, not yet bedded, factory as they come.

The initial load was 25.2 gr of Varget behind 69gr SMK's. Cases were FC, FL sized and primed with BR4. COAL was set to 0.015" off lands. Grouping was 2.840" @ 300 yards.

The next load was identical with these exceptions:

1. The brass was annealed.
2. Neck sized after fire forming in the 12 FVSS.
3. Flash hole de-burred.
4. Primer pockets uniformed.
5. Seating depth adjusted for a 0.010" push to lands.

Resulting groups shrank to under 1.50" @ 300 yards.

Not much by a lot of standards, but it can be the difference between being in the money or simply being an awards spectator. I just change too many variables all at once to know which one was most effective.

I know as the sun will rise in the east in the morning that Cat will bust my balls with such great results using Varget. But at the 100 yard target, IMR 4198 walked all over Varget with a FB bullet such as the 55gr Vmax.

[FallAirFever]

What is the twist of that bbl?

When playing around with a load will you play with charge or seating depth first?

[gitrdun]

It's 1:9 FAV. I will usually play with powder charge in very small increments, like 2 tenths of a grain with such small capacity cases. Once I find that special node, I play with seating depth. I usually start with 0.015" off lands providing mag well allows. But in a rifle that I'll compete with, I don't care as rules only allow one round chambered.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

I know as the sun will rise in the east in the morning that Cat will bust my balls with such great results using Varget. But at the 100 yard target, IMR 4198 walked all over Varget with a FB bullet such as the 55gr Vmax.

But what was the 4198 group at 300 yards, and why are you messing around at 100?
Cat

[densa44]

Cat doesn't shoot 223. Why does it make a difference how far the bullet starts from the lands?

Does that make as much difference as a change in mv?

Does waving the barrel around still constitute the greatest variable?

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by densa44

Cat doesn't shoot 223. Why does it make a difference how far the bullet starts from the lands?

Does that make as much difference as a change in mv?

Does waving the barrel around still constitute the greatest variable?

But Cat DOES shoot the .223, two match rifles in fact!
The amount of bullet jump to the lands can make a very big difference in as much as only .005 on some rifles, not so much on others.
it has to do with the way the bullet enters the throat, this changes the barrel harmonics and the way the bullet upsets as it gets engraved by the rifling.
it makes MORE difference in accuracy that a change in muzzle velocity, IMO.
And yes, in offhand shooting the , waving the barrel around is the biggest variable!

Cat

[tchardy1972]

Originally Posted by densa44

Cat doesn't shoot 223. Why does it make a difference how far the bullet starts from the lands?

Does that make as much difference as a change in mv?

Does waving the barrel around still constitute the greatest variable?

Yes. Seating depth makes a huge difference. It can be even more important than charge weight when it comes to accuracy. Try it. Find out for yourself.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

But what was the 4198 group at 300 yards, and why are you messing around at 100?
Cat

Don't know Cat, that would have to be yet a whole 'nother load. Unfortunately, the sun sets too early. Messing at 100 'cause a specific match calls for targets at 100, 2 and 3.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by densa44

Does waving the barrel around still constitute the greatest variable?

Yes, biggest variable, but I'm working on it....

[Leeper]

Bullet seating depth (distance from or into the lands) can change peak pressure but mostly it changes the pressure curve and causes pressure to peak a little earlier if the bullet is into the lands. Often, seating the bullet into the lands can reduce shot to shot velocity variations. Mor importantly, this is reflectedin a more consistent pressure curve. It is entirely possible to fire two shots which produce exactly the same velocity yet one is in the barrel for a longer period of time and the peak pressure of one is higher than the other.
Seating into the lands isn't always the answer and some bullets in some calibers definitely prefer to jump. Neck tension can also have an effect on ignition which is similar to that of bullet seating depth.
Some people really enjoy delving into the effects of such minutae; Myself, I'm more of a "load it and shoot it" kind of guy. Leeper

[gitrdun]

I always enjoy and learn from your informative comments Leeper, much as I do the likes of a few others, namely Cat, Dick284, elkhunter11, and Chuck, in spite of the fact that I may have butted heads at one time or another, I still recognize knowledge when I see it. Anyhow, it is in my DNA profile to be analytical and to understand why certain things occur the way that they do. This is why I enjoy reloading so much. Many years ago, it started out as a money saving venture, that concept now has exceedingly escaped me. Barrel vibration and the incuring harmonics absolutely facinate me as I take my professional knowledge into my hobby. But, in closing, I'm a bit more forgiving with my hunting ammo as I am with that with which I compete with. Being second best just don't make the cut, and I do have more free time now to play around. Besides, I have the good fortune to load, shoot, reload and repeat with my own home shooting range.

[gopher]

Your 5 steps are basic not advanced at all. In the end your rifle is what it is and has made myself stop performing many steps that gain me nothing.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by gopher

Your 5 steps are basic not advanced at all. In the end your rifle is what it is and has made myself stop performing many steps that gain me nothing.

Agreed, those 5 steps are nothing if you've already been there and done that. To a newbie reloader, and to a guy who buys an off the shelf rifle, and wants to accurize such a rifle, then I believe it's valuable info. You disagree that going from a 2.28 grouping down to less than 1.5 isn't a bit informative? I do agree that some of those steps are less likely to squeeze just a bit more given the proper equipment. But my shot targets speak for themselves.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

Agreed, those 5 steps are nothing if you've already been there and done that. To a newbie reloader, and to a guy who buys an off the shelf rifle, and wants to accurize such a rifle, then I believe it's valuable info. You disagree that going from a 2.28 grouping down to less than 1.5 isn't a bit informative? I do agree that some of those steps are less likely to squeeze just a bit more given the proper equipment. But my shot targets speak for themselves.

On a match rifle tha is a substantial reduction in group size!
Cat

[gopher]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

Agreed, those 5 steps are nothing if you've already been there and done that. To a newbie reloader, and to a guy who buys an off the shelf rifle, and wants to accurize such a rifle, then I believe it's valuable info. You disagree that going from a 2.28 grouping down to less than 1.5 isn't a bit informative? I do agree that some of those steps are less likely to squeeze just a bit more given the proper equipment. But my shot targets speak for themselves.

I can't say as I was not there @300 yards wind would be the killer how many flags did you have out ?

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by gopher

I can't say as I was not there @300 yards wind would be the killer how many flags did you have out ?

Wind is a darned killer for sure. At my place, I have a flag at the bench and at the 100 yard target. At my buddy's place, we have flags at the target and at the bench. Really, how could one possibly account for wind shift at varied ranges, it simply ain't gonna happen. So what we do, is have a dopper look thru the scope and say "now" when the flag lays down. When looking thru my optics at 300 yards, my heart beat becomes more of an issue thanthe wind shift does. At 300, heart beat equals to a full 0.5 to nearly a 1" error in shot placement.

[gopher]

Ok sounds good.

Why are you not free recoiling does your rifle require pressure to shoot? Will your trigger allow for free recoil?

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by gopher

Ok sounds good.

Why are you not free recoiling does your rifle require pressure to shoot? Will your trigger allow for free recoil?

I'm not quite sure that I understand that question gopher? My rifle is seated to target and without hand pressure from my grip, I adjust naturally with either my shoulder or hand grip to give the least amount of body inteference as I can possibly give it. But I do have have to give it a somewhat of a guidance to target, as little as what it may be. Recoiling is in itself an aftermath of trigger pull. How might I even consider that when shooting a. 223?

[gopher]

That answers my question I can't answer yours.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

On a match rifle tha is a substantial reduction in group size!
Cat

Yes it is Cat, and thanks a bundle for stepping up to the plate for me.

[gopher]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

Yes it is Cat, and thanks a bundle for stepping up to the plate for me.

All the friends in the world are not Going to help you in the postal match.

[gitrdun]

I superbly can hold my own, make no mistake about it. I only got two guys that worry me, and you ain't one of them. LOL.

[gopher]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

I superbly can hold my own, make no mistake about it. I only got two guys that worry me, and you ain't one of them. LOL.

Your right I don't have a hi enough post count to be a good shot.

[gitrdun]

My mistake, sorry.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by gopher

Your right I don't have a hi enough post count to be a good shot.

Mods, please delete my account and get me started at 0.

[gopher]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

Mods, please delete my account and get me started at 0.

[Leeper]

Even with a 223, there is a certain amount of recoil which takes place before the bullet exits the barrel (primary recoil). The existence of this primary recoil as well as the vibrations started by the break of the trigger and the striker fall makes follow-through as important with a target rifle as with any other. Pressure you exert on the rifle (or not) at the instant of firing can affect the attitude of the rifle before the bullet is gone.
Training with a 22 is a valuable aid because the 22, with it's greater barrel time, is even more sensitive to shooter error after the trigger breaks. Leeper

[Leeper]

I was going to say, 1.5 inches at 300 yards is pretty acceptable in my view. I practice mostly at 300 meters and if I can get my rifle to keep ten in an inch and a half, I'm a happy man. I only have one "F" class rifle which will regularily do better so your rifle is doing OK, to me. Leeper

[gopher]

Originally Posted by Leeper

Even with a 223, there is a certain amount of recoil which takes place before the bullet exits the barrel (primary recoil). The existence of this primary recoil as well as the vibrations started by the break of the trigger and the striker fall makes follow-through as important with a target rifle as with any other. Pressure you exert on the rifle (or not) at the instant of firing can affect the attitude of the rifle before the bullet is gone.
Training with a 22 is a valuable aid because the 22, with it's greater barrel time, is even more sensitive to shooter error after the trigger breaks. Leeper

Do you use any sort of bag lube to aid in more consistent recoil?

[catnthehat]

I use talcum powder on my rests.
Cat