Genesse Range vs CFO court battle

[RUSTY262]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

If my recall is correct, you will need to maintain a 6M backstop at 100M. Not sure, but I think most Range approvals are issued for a five year term?

I do believe certification needs to be achieved each year
Please correct me if I am wrong

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by Erik

That is before you consider the effect on attracting new members. I was considering a Genesee membership before I learned of this court battle, but now I think I will hold off and shoot elsewhere. Probably more than just me in that bucket. Seems like it could be a revenue squeeze for Genesee that could have long-term impacts. I will wait til the dust settles.

I used to be a CHAS member and I loved going to the Genesee Range because it was so relaxed and it was far enough out of the city that it didn't attract yuppies during the week.

The CFO/berm gong show started years ago and I knew that it wasn't going to be fixed and would drag on forever. Then came the Spruce Grove range fiasco and members from there wanted in at the Genesee Range. I just knew that in no time the place would be crawling with yuppies wanting the same type of nonsense that they had just left and it would change forever.

[sns2]

I am not in the know, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that this gun to the head strategy will not end well when a continued working relationship is necessity.



Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by RUSTY262

I do believe certification needs to be achieved each year
Please correct me if I am wrong

I can tell you from my time serving on the executive of a range, that is not the case.

[RUSTY262]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I can tell you from my time serving on the executive of a range, that is not the case.

Is there a yearly inspection required

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by RUSTY262

Is there a yearly inspection required

There wasn't as of two years ago. We went at least three years without an on site inspection. However, if you apply for any changes to your approvals, the CFO may do an on site inspection, before approving the changes.

[260 Rem]

The past two SPFGA approvals were each for five years. On-site inspection required for the approval ... so five years between visits unless substantive changes are made to the facility.

[Skytop B]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

The past two SPFGA approvals were each for five years. On-site inspection required for the approval ... so five years between visits unless substantive changes are made to the facility.

Same as Rocky. Better to be pro-active and invite them out for a visit once a year. Then theres no big surprises when it comes time for renewal.

[RUSTY262]

Originally Posted by Skytop B

Same as Rocky. Better to be pro-active and invite them out for a visit once a year. Then theres no big surprises when it comes time for renewal.

This is what I would assume would be a wise course of action but it seems not many think like I do

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by Skytop B

Same as Rocky. Better to be pro-active and invite them out for a visit once a year. Then theres no big surprises when it comes time for renewal.

I think clubs would be well advised to be vigilant regarding "expiry" dates and if recertification is due during a "freezy" month, a request for early inspection would have merit in the event groundwork remediation is required.

[RUSTY262]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

I think clubs would be well advised to be vigilant regarding "expiry" dates and if recertification is due during a "freezy" month, a request for early inspection would have merit in the event groundwork remediation is required.

seeing as I haven't been involved in the whole matter I'm just wondering if there was ever a vote for the membership to either fight this in court or spend the money improving our range as instructed
I'm sure there are very few people at Sherwood park range that think the limiter bars are necessary but if that's what the cfo says then that's what they do and guess what- all ranges are open

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by RUSTY262

seeing as I haven't been involved in the whole matter I'm just wondering if there was ever a vote for the membership to either fight this in court or spend the money improving our range as instructed
I'm sure there are very few people at Sherwood park range that think the limiter bars are necessary but if that's what the cfo says then that's what they do and guess what- all ranges are open

And part of the problem is that the CFOs are allowed to pretty much do as they please. They can interpret the templates however they choose to, and they can enforce regulations that only exist in their minds. If the CFO demands that you make changes in order to be approved, it really doesn't matter if the CFO is interpreting the regulations correctly, you either do what he demands, or he can close your range.

[Skytop B]

Originally Posted by RUSTY262

seeing as I haven't been involved in the whole matter I'm just wondering if there was ever a vote for the membership to either fight this in court or spend the money improving our range as instructed
I'm sure there are very few people at Sherwood park range that think the limiter bars are necessary but if that's what the cfo says then that's what they do and guess what- all ranges are open

The issue I see is the club does not get their membership, no revenue, spend what they have on lawyers and go broke.

[Skytop B]

Every gun club should have a savings account strictly for legal fees, and add to it substantially every year. My opinion.

[6MT]

For all the idle internet speculation going on here; the reason this is being contested is the club decided to draw a line in the sand. And not retreat any further. Thus, the battle ensued.

[RUSTY262]

Originally Posted by 6MT

For all the idle internet speculation going on here; the reason this is being contested is the club decided to draw a line in the sand. And not retreat any further. Thus, the battle ensued.

I see that
Unfortunately it is the members who take the brunt of this with the long range remaining closed
I'm not sure who they think this is benefitting except for the lawyers

[gorf]

If you don't think that a lawyer is the way to go,come to the next meeting.
Make a motion to fire the lawyer have a seconder, there will be a discusion and then we have to vote on it. That is how democracy works.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by gorf

If you don't think that a lawyer is the way to go,come to the next meeting.
Make a motion to fire the lawyer have a seconder, there will be a discusion and then we have to vote on it. That is how democracy works.

Not really, Gorf. That is BS and why many people have got fed up and gone elsewhere. The Executive has the emails and addresses of all members. It is the members' club. Remember that. Whenever there is a serious issue that affects the ability of the members to enjoy the facilities they pay for in their membership, then they should be informed of the issue, and have their input sought. There is no such thing as over-communicating. However, there is a problem with under-communicating, and from my personal experience, the CHAS Executive has mastered the art over the years. You will likely respond with, "members can come to the meeting". Well, the reality of gun ranges are such that members are scattered over a wide geographic area, and it is literally not possible for many to make it to a meeting. Well run organizations allow their membership to be able to vote on important issue by proxy. I have no idea if you are on the Executive, but I do know you are very involved with the club, and put in many hours of sweat equity, so I'm not leveling my barrels at you per se. You ought to speak to whoever runs things and tell them to get their head out of their rectum as it relates to keeping the membership informed. Leadership exists to serve the membership, not vice versa. For too long, members of CHAS have been kept in the dark regarding their club. This isn't an issue of putting up wind flags or moving outhouses. This issue affects the viability, both long and short term, of what should be a great club.

[saskbooknut]

Confrontation in court with an all-powerful regulator is not likely to end well.

There are many, many places that the CFOs representative can accept equivalency or stick to the hard facts written in the range design document.

It would be my educated guess that confrontation will lead to hard enforcement of the templates.

And no, I don't have any specific knowledge of this situation. But I do have years of experience dealing with range certification, agency firearms control and radiation regulations by the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission.

A legal court battle should be a last desperate choice IMHO.

[gorf]

At the end of the day we have to abide with the guidelines set by the CFO. They are mostly safety related. Regardless if the lawyer win or lose we will have to sit down in the CFO office and figure it out.My opinion is that this side show has nothing to do with runing the gun club.

[RUSTY262]

Originally Posted by gorf

At the end of the day we have to abide with the guidelines set by the CFO. They are mostly safety related. Regardless if the lawyer win or lose we will have to sit down in the CFO office and figure it out.My opinion is that this side show has nothing to do with runing the gun club.

Exactly
So why not save the money on lawyers and use it to upgrade to the safety standards needed to get the range open
Last time I checked it was cheaper to rent a dozer for an hour than a lawyer
Will I have any support at the meeting in February if I address this issue or will I be mobbed and thrown out?
I won't have a leg to stand on if it's only me there voicing these concerns
Anyone else planning to attend with the same thinking?

[qwert]

Originally Posted by gorf

snip
Make a motion to fire the lawyer have a seconder, there will be a discusion and then we have to vote on it. That is how democracy works.

Maybe that is how democracy should work,
but some/many clique controlled club executives have modified their 'rules of order' bylaws to prevent 'motions from the floor',
and require that all member motions be submitted in writing some significant period before a meeting,
and that the executive may control when the motion is presented to the members,
or is able to suspend regular meetings.
The Annual General Meeting may be the only required meeting,
and its purpose may be limited to the election of officers,
who may/must be selected off of a previously approved list of candidates, with no nominations 'from the floor'.

Read the Provincial Legislation and Club Bylaws for required procedures.

Good Luck, YMMV.

[purgatory.sv]

Good information.

[Speckle55]

Not sure on your guys situation but out here in Hinton we had the template changed too and lost our certification

in 2010 we got a letter stating what need to be done too bring it up too code by Nov 2011

nothing was done and we lost our certification in Dec 2012

we got certification back only for a couple ranges(I did some homework/planning as why)

in Jan 2013 I spear headed a plan too bring up berms on all ranges up which was done and comply with 2010 letter

now all ranges are fit the template

To be fair to the CFO's ..they got there hands slapped for not enforcing Federal Regs.. if you look into there site....Audit Finding 5 : Shooting Clubs and Shooting Ranges...http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/r.../page4-eng.htm.



we also put some ground baffles too be Pro active rather than reactive and brought berm heights higher than the 6m(thanks Bill(Coachman) & son John who volunteered 39 days working on them n Alstar Oilfield Contractors Donated the hoe)

now we have a change in executive with younger blood and the range has improved more

when working with the CFO's its important to listen too what's being said ...then do your home work and get the job done

if you look at the templates of other ranges in city's around the world you will get my drift

but this is red neck Alberta which I love but us Old Guys need to take our blinders off and get with the program or get left behind

by the way the Hinton Club is always changing (new toilets/station covers/camera's/power gate /bench's/ranges etc

http://www.hintonfishandgame.ca/

as all ways this is

Food for Thought

David

[gorf]

Thanks for the info. Your club seems to be doing well,sometime its how you aproach the problem.Our club has acomplished a lot in the last 6 years. .Hat off to the guys that helps.

[RUSTY262]

anyone else heading to the meeting tonight for CHAS?

[Gifted Intuitive]

I have been thanked hundreds ( yes Hundreds) of times for having this discussion.* I was asked a few times why I didn't* mention the " True Template".

When the Operating permit for a Shooting range comes up for renewal the RCMP say that the changes they are enforcing are to ensure* compliance with a 'Template'* established for shooting ranges.* During the five year period between renewals the range hasn't changed and the template hasn't changed.* Outside the boundary of the range in the direction of gun fire,* there has not been any changes. But the RCMP demand changes and immediately close the range.* Some Ranges have survived the first renewal but the cost to obtain a second operating permit results in changes the clubs can't afford.* The changes are very costly, and if you can't afford the changes you have to discontinue operating. The range at Provost is a recent example.

The shooting sports community have deemed these changes to comply with the "True Template".* In the discussion one member described this as the " ... moving target of CFO requirements."

The following describes the " True Template" :

A book has* been published titled "Gun Control in the Third Reich", written by Stephen Halbrook.

I am going to provide part of a book report written by Dave Kopel.

*...Over the next five years , the Nazis worked methodically to force all elements of society into line.. For example, independent gun or shooting sports clubs were outlawed. ..., clubs were registered with the state , ruled by a Nazi political officer. Many clubs disbanded instead.

The 1938 law...further ensuring that only the Nazis and their politically reliable supporters could have arms.

... In October 1938, the Nazis used the arms registration lists to complete the disarmament of the Jews.

....As for the rest of the German population, resistance might have been possible in 1933-34, but now it was too late. The nation that had once been amongst the most civilized and tolerant in the world was now disarmed and supine....* end of quote.

Please focus on the phrase "disarmed and supine". Supine pronounced
'syoo-pyn' means 'failing to act as a result of laziness or lack of courage'
or 'mentally or morally slack'.

* This book is a 'must read' for those struggling to understand the Canada Firearms Program.* You will grasp the "True Template".

The book is available at www.independent.org

The "Template" being used by the RCMP and referred to many times in this discussion is not a scientific document.

If you want to now how the Sherwood Park F & G club can survive the 'bleed-to-death' confiscation strategy please search for the phrase 'Alberta Fish & Game prostitute thousands of gun owners'.

[Pepe]

As far as I am concerned this is all bureaucratic
Let's face it, you can go to any adequate crown kandy and shoot your long guns. No need for a berm behind your paper or your moose.
All this bureaucracy and government rules are doing is killing the sport.

And don't give me any about ground strikes and appropriate berms at Genesee, there is nothing to hurt behind those berms. It's all a pile of

The shootings sports are growing exponentially. And in the mean time the bureaucrats are bussy closing ranges and making it more expensiveytyo keep the ones we have. I'm freaking fed up with this !

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by Pepe

As far as I am concerned this is all bureaucratic
Let's face it, you can go to any adequate crown kandy and shoot your long guns. No need for a berm behind your paper or your moose.
All this bureaucracy and government rules are doing is killing the sport.

And don't give me any about ground strikes and appropriate berms at Genesee, there is nothing to hurt behind those berms. It's all a pile of

The shootings sports are growing exponentially. And in the mean time the bureaucrats are bussy closing ranges and making it more expensiveytyo keep the ones we have. I'm freaking fed up with this !

You've keyed in on the end game being played here. Simple obstructive processes to make it harder and harder for people to keep shooting. It's common knowledge that this is part of the disarmerment agenda.

[Pepe]

Originally Posted by Dick284

You've keyed in on the end game being played here. Simple obstructive processes to make it harder and harder for people to keep shooting. It's common knowledge that this is part of the disarmerment agenda.

Be careful. You are going to get both both of us labeled as paranoid conspiracy theorists.