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02-09-2020, 04:07 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: East Central Alberta
Posts: 8,315
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Primer Storage
After a month in Palm Springs I returned to break-in a new 308 Win barrel with 8 cartridges I loaded just before leaving. They all went bang ... I loaded up a couple of groups the next morning, off to the Range ....every one failed to fire. Took them apart, reloaded from a different pack of primers (from the same brick), back to the Range ... clicks. Today tried some loads left over from a rifle I sold and they all went bang. No doubt something that happened while they were in storage killed the primers...the (partial) brick was stored in a metal container in a cool room while I was away. I have stored primers in the same location for years. Never had a problem before. CCI BR-2’s. Any ideas?
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02-09-2020, 05:03 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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Not off the top of my head, just used some that are nearly 30 yrs old, no issues with them. I have heard stories of some new formula primers having compounds that do break down in a shorter time span, can't remember what they were supposed to be though. No idea if they are truth or fiction.
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02-09-2020, 05:52 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2009
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These could be 5-6 years old ... I had a couple of bricks and these are the last of that batch. What is strange is that they were viable to the end of Dec and those loaded into cartridges worked...but those left in their packages inside the brick box went bad. There could have been some temperature variation in the room during the cold snap, but the cold room never froze.
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02-09-2020, 06:36 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2015
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Hard to say what the deal is, I store all my primers in plastic storage containers with air tight lids then inside a steel lock box, have never had a problem with any of them, got some that are at least 10 years old.
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02-09-2020, 06:42 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Northern Alberta
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Seems odd
Seems odd.
But i never store primers in metal storage containers, such as military ammo crates. I just always felt they were prone to holding dampness which is why so many are rusted when you get them. No evidence but a suspicion. I vacuum seal each 100 pack and put them back into the bricks. So far so good, have some that are 15 years old.
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02-09-2020, 06:58 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,604
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More like that the firing pin is fouled a bit and not hitting hard enough.
Unless the primers are stored under water they should be fine.
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02-09-2020, 08:01 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: East Central Alberta
Posts: 8,315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battle Rat
More like that the firing pin is fouled a bit and not hitting hard enough.
Unless the primers are stored under water they should be fine.
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That was my initial suspicion, and I’m not ruling it out as a potential contributing factor. What weighted my thinking towards the primers is that everything I had loaded prior ... has gone bang...and only those loads made using the primers from that last brick are not igniting. I actually used different brass on the last attempt to be certain the primer was not seated too deep ...and they too were duds.
Tomorrow will try a new batch of primers and get the firing pin mechanism cleaned up.
And, in the future will use a plastic container...makes sense.
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02-09-2020, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 260 Rem
That was my initial suspicion, and I’m not ruling it out as a potential contributing factor. What weighted my thinking towards the primers is that everything I had loaded prior ... has gone bang...and only those loads made using the primers from that last brick are not igniting. I actually used different brass on the last attempt to be certain the primer was not seated too deep ...and they too were duds.
Tomorrow will try a new batch of primers and get the firing pin mechanism cleaned up.
And, in the future will use a plastic container...makes sense.
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You could test the primers in a different gun with no powder or bullet too.
I've seen a pretty good dent on primers that failed to fire.
I pulled the firing pin and cleaned the crap off of it and had no misfires since.
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02-09-2020, 08:30 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ft. McMurray
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I had the same problem with one of my target rifles, took the bolt apart completely, and cleaned thoroughly.
Put it back together again and used the misfired ammo in it- BANG!
Some of the primers had deep dents on them, but the firing pin was hitting them too slowly.
had the same issue with a '996 Mauser years ago, as well.
Cat
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02-10-2020, 11:40 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Medicine Hat
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I store mine in an old file cabinet I have never had a problem and I have some really old primers 20-25 years old. I agree with Cat and others I would look at the firing pin, also IF? they have changed the go bang mixture in the primers they MAY? need a sharper crack to get them to go bang....dang lawyers.....
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02-10-2020, 01:01 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Near Edmonton
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Primers don't go from working to not in a month unless something really odd happened to them like sitting under water for a week, and even then most of them would go bang. I have primers that are over 40 years old and loaded ammo a lot older than that. They all still go bang just fine. I would be looking at other causes.
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02-10-2020, 01:15 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NW Calgary
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Was it a much colder day or rifle sat outside longer causing the oil viscosity to increase slowing down the firing pin?
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02-10-2020, 03:32 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: East Central Alberta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean2
Primers don't go from working to not in a month unless something really odd happened to them like sitting under water for a week, and even then most of them would go bang. I have primers that are over 40 years old and loaded ammo a lot older than that. They all still go bang just fine. I would be looking at other causes.
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Agree ... still a mystery...but ...bolt disassembled, cleaned. Go gauge would close on one layer of green tape but not on two so guesstimate of headspace is in the .003 - .006 range which is generous but still likely within parameters. Got new primers to try.
Andrew, temp would not have been a factor.
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02-10-2020, 03:40 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 260 Rem
Agree ... still a mystery...but ...bolt disassembled, cleaned. Go gauge would close on one layer of green tape but not on two so guesstimate of headspace is in the .003 - .006 range which is generous but still likely within parameters. Got new primers to try.
Andrew, temp would not have been a factor.
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I have a 308 no go if u need to borrow one.
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02-10-2020, 03:41 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
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I store ,my primers on a shelf, in the cardboard/plastic containers they come in. I am still using some primers that are well over ten years old, with no issues at all.
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02-11-2020, 06:58 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2009
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Bolt disassembled, pin protrusion measured ... all good. Tried some NK sized only brass which should have closed a bit of headspace and only 1/3 went bang. Now thinking either headspace or mechanical so will run back to smith tomorrow. Thanks to all for your trouble shooting ideas. I’m still learning!!
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02-11-2020, 10:34 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Northern Alberta
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Neck
Are those neck sized only cases a little stiff to close on the bolt? If they are, the primers should ignite i suspect. And if so, your reloading practices may be the culprit. Are they a standard die you purchased new?
Rifle headspace checked out, so could be the case spacing.
Keep us updated.
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02-11-2020, 11:05 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 260 Rem
After a month in Palm Springs I returned to break-in a new 308 Win barrel with 8 cartridges I loaded just before leaving. They all went bang ... I loaded up a couple of groups the next morning, off to the Range ....every one failed to fire. Took them apart, reloaded from a different pack of primers (from the same brick), back to the Range ... clicks. Today tried some loads left over from a rifle I sold and they all went bang. No doubt something that happened while they were in storage killed the primers...the (partial) brick was stored in a metal container in a cool room while I was away. I have stored primers in the same location for years. Never had a problem before. CCI BR-2’s. Any ideas?
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Hi 260 Rem,
Very similar with me also. Loading dozens and dozens of rounds for my .243 in Browning B78 for load work up and general shooting. CCI Large Rifle primers No.200, box of 1000. Have about 300 or so left, loading up some with Barnes bullets for my M70 Winchester .270, 40-50% don’t fire, significant dent in primer. Fact I’ve loaded .270 then .243 with same batch from same 100 lot. Not 1 misfire with .243. Off to the Smith here in Kamloops and Steve Jennings said nope nothing wrong with .270. Even showed him dented rounds and his feeling was faulty primers... once I explained the above he said John, I’ve seen a few unexplainable things over the years and this happens to be another one with primers. Just happy I was at the range for misfires.... and only 300 left Ican live with replacing them with different brand. Last bunch I used I think were Federals. What about Mag pistol primers in my long guns? I’ve a ton of those as I don’t pack my .44 S&W 629 for work anymore... sigh let the permit to carry lapse years ago now, dang in retro spect.... oh well. Any suggestions on primers appreciated Fellas.
Thx j
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02-11-2020, 11:20 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Near Edmonton
Posts: 15,043
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCart
Hi 260 Rem,
Very similar with me also. Loading dozens and dozens of rounds for my .243 in Browning B78 for load work up and general shooting. CCI Large Rifle primers No.200, box of 1000. Have about 300 or so left, loading up some with Barnes bullets for my M70 Winchester .270, 40-50% don’t fire, significant dent in primer. Fact I’ve loaded .270 then .243 with same batch from same 100 lot. Not 1 misfire with .243. Off to the Smith here in Kamloops and Steve Jennings said nope nothing wrong with .270. Even showed him dented rounds and his feeling was faulty primers... once I explained the above he said John, I’ve seen a few unexplainable things over the years and this happens to be another one with primers. Just happy I was at the range for misfires.... and only 300 left Ican live with replacing them with different brand. Last bunch I used I think were Federals. What about Mag pistol primers in my long guns? I’ve a ton of those as I don’t pack my .44 S&W 629 for work anymore... sigh let the permit to carry lapse years ago now, dang in retro spect.... oh well. Any suggestions on primers appreciated Fellas.
Thx j
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Hate to say it but your smith doesn't know what he is talking about. This is not an unexplainable issue. Primers that fire 100% of the time in your 243 and 50% in your 270, the problem isn't the primers. There is something wrong with that 270, even if your smith couldn't find it.
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02-11-2020, 11:20 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Medicine Hat
Posts: 4,237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCart
Hi 260 Rem,
Very similar with me also. Loading dozens and dozens of rounds for my .243 in Browning B78 for load work up and general shooting. CCI Large Rifle primers No.200, box of 1000. Have about 300 or so left, loading up some with Barnes bullets for my M70 Winchester .270, 40-50% don’t fire, significant dent in primer. Fact I’ve loaded .270 then .243 with same batch from same 100 lot. Not 1 misfire with .243. Off to the Smith here in Kamloops and Steve Jennings said nope nothing wrong with .270. Even showed him dented rounds and his feeling was faulty primers... once I explained the above he said John, I’ve seen a few unexplainable things over the years and this happens to be another one with primers. Just happy I was at the range for misfires.... and only 300 left Ican live with replacing them with different brand. Last bunch I used I think were Federals. What about Mag pistol primers in my long guns? I’ve a ton of those as I don’t pack my .44 S&W 629 for work anymore... sigh let the permit to carry lapse years ago now, dang in retro spect.... oh well. Any suggestions on primers appreciated Fellas.
Thx j
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NOT a good idea the cups are not as thick and they may pierce in a rifle due to the stronger firing pin spring.
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Trades I would interested in:
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- older 6x fixed scopes with fine X or target dot.
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02-11-2020, 11:41 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: East Central Alberta
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I don’t suspect my reloading or dies as I have reloaded thousands of 308 rounds ... and what I thought at first blush made sense at the time, but now...not so much. I previously had two different barrels on this action (30-284 and 6.5SLR) with no misfires. Will be sure to report back when the riddle is solved.
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02-11-2020, 11:42 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean2
Hate to say it but your smith doesn't know what he is talking about. This is not an unexplainable issue. Primers that fire 100% of the time in your 243 and 50% in your 270, the problem isn't the primers. There is something wrong with that 270, even if your smith couldn't find it.
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Reading though this thread Catnthehat, got me thinking about firing pin velocity, so I might have gander at full strip down, clean and see what happens. In the meantime I’ll pick up nuther brand of primers too.
j
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02-11-2020, 11:43 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter
NOT a good idea the cups are not as thick and they may pierce in a rifle due to the stronger firing pin spring.
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Ok cool thanks.
j
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02-11-2020, 11:45 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Near Edmonton
Posts: 15,043
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCart
Reading though this thread Catnthehat, got me thinking about firing pin velocity, so I might have gander at full strip down, clean and see what happens. In the meantime I’ll pick up nuther brand of primers too.
j
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Try a new firing pin spring while u are at it. They do get weak over the years and almost no one checks them or replaces them.
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02-11-2020, 11:47 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 260 Rem
I don’t suspect my reloading or dies as I have reloaded thousands of 308 rounds ... and what I thought at first blush made sense at the time, but now...not so much. I previously had two different barrels on this action (30-284 and 6.5SLR) with no misfires. Will be sure to report back when the riddle is solved.
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Hope you get it sorted .260 Rem, apologies for seemingly crashing your thread, just seemed odd to have (somewhat) similar misfire primer failures.
Cheers,
j
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02-11-2020, 11:49 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Northern Alberta
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Yeah
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCart
Reading though this thread Catnthehat, got me thinking about firing pin velocity, so I might have gander at full strip down, clean and see what happens. In the meantime I’ll pick up nuther brand of primers too.
j
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That’s certainly worth trying a new spring, and inexpensive.
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02-12-2020, 12:01 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Near Edmonton
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The other thing worth checking is to make sure the sear is completely releasing when u pull the trigger. European and old style triggers had over travel to ensure a clean and complete release. In today's world where the fashion is to have no over travel you can also get sear drag which causes the firing pin to leave a good dent but to have insufficient velocity to fire off the primer properly. It gives the same outcome as a weak firing pin spring but due to drag.
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02-12-2020, 06:37 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter
NOT a good idea the cups are not as thick and they may pierce in a rifle due to the stronger firing pin spring.
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I’ve used many, many pistol primers with form loads and have yet to blank a primer.
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02-12-2020, 06:43 AM
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Join Date: May 2014
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One way to test if it's the primers vs the rifle would be to pick up a box or two of cheap ppi or federal ball ammo and just have fun with some pop cans. See if you get any misfired from them.
Colin
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02-12-2020, 09:45 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
I’ve used many, many pistol primers with form loads and have yet to blank a primer.
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Forming loads are not full power loads but it is your bolt face....feel free.
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Trades I would interested in:
- Sightron rifle scopes, 4.5x14x42mm or 4x16x42mm
especially! with the HHR reticle. (no duplex pls.)
- older 6x fixed scopes with fine X or target dot.
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