$30/yr random camping fee

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by 270person

Make it $30 a night. Thin out the swine herds.

Originally Posted by pikergolf

This, it is unfathomable to me that people out there random camping and leaving a pig sty is considered normal behavior in Alberta. Not enough wilderness and to many people. Good gawd, the feces alone is enough to make a guy gag.

Got it right! $30.00 per night would be great!

[hilt134]

Originally Posted by huntwat

The co's travel through regularly, Stop at each spot and pick one licenced vehicle. Tell them they are responsible for clean up. Have them take pics upon departure, for their protection. If the co finds litter, at least he has something to follow up on. Once this process is established, there will be no 'It was already there".

I can’t see 30$ a person raising enough money to cover this sort of enforcement. In order to make a system like that work the CO’s are going to have to pass through these areas at a minimum once a day, otherwise if a more than a day passes it really could be anyone’s trash. It would really take the randomness out of the camping, you can’t expect someone to be held liable for the site for an unspecified amount of time. if the co is rolling through at a set time and inspecting every site before you leave so they know you where clean. I don’t see how that’s much different from a regular campground.

Also the person who is purposing the fee in the article says the money will go toward conservation, not necessarily enforcement. Likely there’s a chance that the officers who currently aren’t managing the level of enforcement needed won’t get the budgetary increase to up the enforcement.

[Howard Hutchinson]

As stated by a member, re-open existing grounds which have the infrastructure in place. Maybe expand to handle extra flow.
Too much time and money to have it work well if even possible.
If people would act as they should then it might be a different story. Yet, there is simply to much disrespect for not only nature but the authorities.

[HalfBreed]

People need to start camping in their local parks, why should the homeless have all the fun?

[JohninAB]

Originally Posted by huntwat

The co's travel through regularly, Stop at each spot and pick one licenced vehicle. Tell them they are responsible for clean up. Have them take pics upon departure, for their protection. If the co finds litter, at least he has something to follow up on. Once this process is established, there will be no 'It was already there".

This will not work as time between departure and the CO coming to inspect leaves the door open for the defense of someone did it after I left. Was not us.

Sent off a rather long email to my UCP MLA over this and a couple other issues. See how he responds.

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by JohninAB

This will not work as time between departure and the CO coming to inspect leaves the door open for the defense of someone did it after I left. Was not us.

Sent off a rather long email to my UCP MLA over this and a couple other issues. See how he responds.

That’s why the camper would take pics upon departure.

[zabbo]

Don't think a $30 annual fee will change anything. Been camping in the Oldman /Dutch creek area for the last 8 summers. There are always issues and disagreements. Some people like to shoot, while others are terrified, some people like to quad while others are squawking the land and streams are being destroyed. There has always been way too much TP and feces along the streams in my opinion. Lots of "temporary" out houses that seem to have become permanent. Ya gotta go, ya gotta go, fine, but at least wander well into the weeds and cover your tracks when you are done.

Last year in particular was a complete "crap show"!. Saw lots of things that were really over the top! Pretty sure this year will be even worse! Really have to wonder about the entitlement attitude of people?

I'm thinking some kind of random camping permit on a per night basis. Could be sold on line like fishing a license. Would need to be displayed on the trailer or tent. All monies raised go directly to enforcement. There has been virtually zero in the past. Last year there actually were more CO,s and lo and behold even RCMP? Still nowhere near enough and seldom in the evening or later at night. Fireworks all over, fire bans totally ignored!? It really was the wild west!

[zabbo]

Originally Posted by huntwat

The co's travel through regularly, Stop at each spot and pick one licenced vehicle. Tell them they are responsible for clean up. Have them take pics upon departure, for their protection. If the co finds litter, at least he has something to follow up on. Once this process is established, there will be no 'It was already there".

Judging by this comment I don't think you comprehend the scope of the problem. In the Dutch creek area there are 100's of thousands of acres of forest and people camping everywhere. It would take an army of CO"s to drive through regularly. Even at that some camp sites would be missed. You wouldn't believe some of the places I have seen trailers! I wouldn't even take my truck into some of them. Many sites have multiple groups crowded into them. How can you pick one vehicle and tell them they are responsible for all the rest?

JMHO

[JB_AOL]

Guys, this annual permit would be teal easy to enforce, simply set up a "checkstop" on one road every Friday. The oanother road on Sat, another on Sunday. Sure it doesn't catch everyone, but keeping it random would force alot of people to buy the permit. Also, it's for camping not day use.

[liar]

Our co's are short handed now . Adding road blocks , site visits , probably isnt going to happen without reducing coverage somewhere else . Also , a lot of these activities happen on the weekends , not evenly spread out over 7 days making coverage even more challenging .

[nimrod]

I can see it now, at landslide lake, my tent has the permit posted, when nobody from the co's will come and look, this is also a back country campsite, just no vehicle access

[Stinky Buffalo]

In theory it sounds like a good idea - and if it had any hope of addressing the backcountry abusers, then I'd support it.

I think of it this way, though: If they didn't have the resources to police the abusers up until now, how will they find the resources to enforce the fees in an equitable manner?

There will be many that will ignore paying the fees and will chance the fine.

A roadside checkstop has limited effectiveness as well - some will just say, "I'm just going in for the day, sir...", especially if they don't have a camping unit.

I'll have to file this under "cash grab".

[JohninAB]

They are supposedly hiring 20 new CO’s and extra summer staff I believe.

[colroggal]

Better idea would be to make everyone who wishes to use the outdoors apply for a WIN card and pay for the same annual wildlife certificate every hunter has to buy.

Colin

[Stinky Buffalo]

Originally Posted by JohninAB

They are supposedly hiring 20 new CO’s and extra summer staff I believe.

Well, that's good news! On one hand, it's too bad that it has come to this due to the abusers, but it's good to see that they are putting more resources into it.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by zabbo

Don't think a $30 annual fee will change anything. Been camping in the Oldman /Dutch creek area for the last 8 summers. There are always issues and disagreements. Some people like to shoot, while others are terrified, some people like to quad while others are squawking the land and streams are being destroyed. There has always been way too much TP and feces along the streams in my opinion. Lots of "temporary" out houses that seem to have become permanent. Ya gotta go, ya gotta go, fine, but at least wander well into the weeds and cover your tracks when you are done.

Last year in particular was a complete "crap show"!. Saw lots of things that were really over the top! Pretty sure this year will be even worse! Really have to wonder about the entitlement attitude of people?

I'm thinking some kind of random camping permit on a per night basis. Could be sold on line like fishing a license. Would need to be displayed on the trailer or tent. All monies raised go directly to enforcement. There has been virtually zero in the past. Last year there actually were more CO,s and lo and behold even RCMP? Still nowhere near enough and seldom in the evening or later at night. Fireworks all over, fire bans totally ignored!? It really was the wild west!

All you have to do is look where 90% of the people are from in the Oldman/Dutch Creek area. If the CO's would go out and actually fine the guilt ones they would make way more money than they would with a $30 dollar fee. That is if there is as big as problem as everyone let's on! I just can't get over how people bitch and complain about taxes, but yet are ok with paying user fees for everything. You do realize that all money goes into general revenue.

[treeroot]

Money grab.. Does everyone here understand that the 30$ fee goes into the provincial coffers as general revenue and its spent just the same as any other provincial fee?

This 30$ does NOT go directly to maintaining and policing crown land camping. Just more money in the governments pocket.

And the same *****s who abuse crown land will be the same *****s who don't pay the fee.

All this is will be is a money grab out of the pockets of the people who use crown land respectfully.

[zabbo]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

All you have to do is look where 90% of the people are from in the Oldman/Dutch Creek area. If the CO's would go out and actually fine the guilt ones they would make way more money than they would with a $30 dollar fee. That is if there is as big as problem as everyone let's on! I just can't get over how people bitch and complain about taxes, but yet are ok with paying user fees for everything. You do realize that all money goes into general revenue.

Where do you think the 90% comes from? I have no issue with dishing out fines and I hope they make them big! Problem is, the CO's or police pretty much have to be there and witness infractions. Otherwise, people just say, it wasn't me. Prove it was. Also, people will plead not guilty and the courts are so backed up, by the time it gets there the case will be thrown out. You are correct when you say $30 probably won't do it. That's why I suggest a nightly fee. Make it $5. These funds go directly to enforcement! Big fines where possible as well.

I really don't know what the answer is, but after last year especially, and even before, something needs to change. We nee to start someplace.

[Buckhead]

Originally Posted by treeroot

Money grab.. Does everyone here understand that the 30$ fee goes into the provincial coffers as general revenue and its spent just the same as any other provincial fee?

This 30$ does NOT go directly to maintaining and policing crown land camping. Just more money in the governments pocket.

And the same *****s who abuse crown land will be the same *****s who don't pay the fee.

All this is will be is a money grab out of the pockets of the people who use crown land respectfully.

This ^^^^.

I am not paying a $30 fee to use crown land that I already own.

What next. A fee to breathe mountain air?

Maybe they can start actually fining the abusers.

[zabbo]

Originally Posted by treeroot

Money grab.. Does everyone here understand that the 30$ fee goes into the provincial coffers as general revenue and its spent just the same as any other provincial fee?

This 30$ does NOT go directly to maintaining and policing crown land camping. Just more money in the governments pocket.

And the same *****s who abuse crown land will be the same *****s who don't pay the fee.

All this is will be is a money grab out of the pockets of the people who use crown land respectfully.

I suspect that you are one of those that use crown land respectfully? You also have an issue paying for that use. There are lots of people that are very respectful and that's great. There are also lots that are extremely disrespectful. Last year saw a huge increase of those people. I actually stay in a campground and pay for that. My choice. I have never agreed with a free for all random camping crap show. As stated, these monies go directly to enforcement. I know, governments change the rules all the time. I'm just saying, something needs to change drastically. We have to start somewhere.

[Buckhead]

Maybe start enforcing the laws that already exist.
That's a good place to start.
It's highly unlike that the abusers are going to pay the $30 in any event.
If they start handing out fines then that will generate the revenue for additional enforcement. No need for any extra permits.

[urban rednek]

It's only $30. Not a big deal.
"Heck, that's less than a tank of fuel to get out there. It's less than the cost of a small double double every week for a year.
If it saves one life..."

Stop falling for their false narrative and misdirection, that's how we got where we are today. Increase the fines and enforce the existing laws before you create a new license (tax) that will increase every year ad infinitum. Rinse and repeat.

[tri777]

Originally Posted by urban rednek

It's only $30. Not a big deal.
"Heck, that's less than a tank of fuel to get out there. It's less than the cost of a small double double
every week for a year. If it saves one life..."

Stop falling for their false narrative and misdirection, that's how we got where we are today. Increase the
fines and enforce the existing laws before you create a new license (tax) that will increase every year ad
infinitum. Rinse and repeat.

I am 100% with this ^^
The new $30 tax is just a sneaky snake way to make all the 'good/law abiders' pay for the sins of the pigs.

[Outbound]

Just another tax that won't solve anything. Start with making the fines for abusing the wilderness staggeringly harsh. $2000 for littering, $5000 for cutting down live trees, $10,000 for driving through fish bearing waters etc.

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by zabbo

Judging by this comment I don't think you comprehend the scope of the problem. In the Dutch creek area there are 100's of thousands of acres of forest and people camping everywhere. It would take an army of CO"s to drive through regularly. Even at that some camp sites would be missed. You wouldn't believe some of the places I have seen trailers! I wouldn't even take my truck into some of them. Many sites have multiple groups crowded into them. How can you pick one vehicle and tell them they are responsible for all the rest?

JMHO

I’ve camped at Dutch, old man, racehorse, daisy, white and deep. But only started recently (1975ish) I think I might know a little about the area and the problem. Of course you’re not going to catch everyone. But, if you catch a large number, word gets out.
Multiple groups? Then ask who is in each group. C.O.‘s are paid to do a job. Maybe start doing it.

[Athabasca1]

Originally Posted by treeroot

Money grab.. Does everyone here understand that the 30$ fee goes into the provincial coffers as general revenue and its spent just the same as any other provincial fee?

This 30$ does NOT go directly to maintaining and policing crown land camping. Just more money in the governments pocket.

And the same *****s who abuse crown land will be the same *****s who don't pay the fee.

All this is will be is a money grab out of the pockets of the people who use crown land respectfully.

I agree with treeroot, just another money grab.

[birdman86]

Originally Posted by treeroot

Money grab.. Does everyone here understand that the 30$ fee goes into the provincial coffers as general revenue and its spent just the same as any other provincial fee?

This 30$ does NOT go directly to maintaining and policing crown land camping. Just more money in the governments pocket.

And the same *****s who abuse crown land will be the same *****s who don't pay the fee.

All this is will be is a money grab out of the pockets of the people who use crown land respectfully.

Yup, this. Kenney needs to come up with taxes wherever he can while leaving personal/corporate rates untouched, all so he can pay his "war room" $30MM to protest a childrens cartoon about Bigfoot.

[liar]

Originally Posted by Buckhead

This ^^^^.

I am not paying a $30 fee to use crown land that I already own.

What next. A fee to breathe mountain air?

Maybe they can start actually fining the abusers.

Thats crazy talk . What next? Take the guns away from the criminals !!!

[zabbo]

Originally Posted by huntwat

I’ve camped at Dutch, old man, racehorse, daisy, white and deep. But only started recently (1975ish) I think I might know a little about the area and the problem. Of course you’re not going to catch everyone. But, if you catch a large number, word gets out.
Multiple groups? Then ask who is in each group. C.O.‘s are paid to do a job. Maybe start doing it.

I can see this is going south real fast. Quite honestly I'm not looking for a scrap. Just some way to put a cap on the craziness that has slowly been getting worse each year. Last year was a complete gong show! With all the new trailers purchased last year I expect this year will be the same and probably worse. I simply don't care how it happens, an annual fee, daily fee or just flat out through taxes. One way or the other it is going to cost money. If you have spent as much time as you say in the area I can't believe that you honestly believe CO's are regularly going to drive through every campsite. It would take an army and even then places would be missed. The next issue is, to charge a person the officer pretty much has to witness the offence. Those odds are pretty long at the very best. So too are the odds of charging a large number. Then imagine mom and dad take the kids for a weekend camp out and end up with a $1k fine or more. I can see the headlines and news flashes already. I didn't know, they're picking on me. Last summer 3 or 4 weeks into the fire ban a group in the campground has a real nice blazing going one evening. A couple people told them there was a fire ban. Response, well it's just a little fire. We didn't see the 4X8 foot fire ban signs all the way inbound or the 2 or 3 signs in the campground. REALY?? As far as I know the fine in that case is $600. Should be 10k.

Once again, not looking for scrap. Just trying to stop the insanity! Have a great day!

[treeroot]

Originally Posted by zabbo

I suspect that you are one of those that use crown land respectfully? You also have an issue paying for that use. There are lots of people that are very respectful and that's great. There are also lots that are extremely disrespectful. Last year saw a huge increase of those people. I actually stay in a campground and pay for that. My choice. I have never agreed with a free for all random camping crap show. As stated, these monies go directly to enforcement. I know, governments change the rules all the time. I'm just saying, something needs to change drastically. We have to start somewhere.

Not sure why you made that statement, you'd think that would be pretty obvious.. So I'm guessing it's more about the sentence following that one.. So I'll assume this was your point and address it.

Yes I have an issue with the 30$. My issue is that unless the 30$ is given directly to those who can address the issues on CL, its just a money grab.
It's going to the general pot of provincial fees and taxes. NOTHING has been stated about increasing officers to address the issue, increasing money towards convicting offenders etc. So if they are taking 30$ for me because of a known problem, but not giving the 30$ to those who can address the known problem than there is no point in charging 30$.

I'm not sure where your getting that this money is going directly to enforcment unless I missed that part. But in the articles I've read about the 30$ fee, nothing was said about the money going DIRECTLY to enforcment.

If I saw how my crownland camping fee was being spent and it clearly showed they would hire X number of officers for ever X number of fee's collecting and it was a 1 for 1 deal, I'd happily pay 60$