Problem Elk

[clakjp]

Originally Posted by rielbowhunter

"In the mildest language I can bring myself to say at this moment:
You, sir, are an idiot!"

2x glad someone said it.

Thanks Billy

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by IR_mike

Do you enjoy eating relativly cheap subsidized food?

If so end of discussion.

If not factor in land, operating cost, and commodity prices for your average farmer especialy one just starting out.

.

Well, given that I'm also a taxpayer I'm paying for the subsidization and then the store prices. I'd rather just pay the full cost at the check-out. I have to say, with all due respect, I'm not in favour of taxpayers perpetually backing, subsidizing, and supporting one sort of business and not another. There are certain risks inherent in every business. Owners have to accept that. Oil prices go up and down, there are good and bad crop years, and some places have elk, predators, etc. Ranchers, like all business owners, know that going in.

[sheepguide]

Im thinking that a few thousand dollars for a fence is pretty cheap in the long run!! Thats only the cost of 40 or 50 bales depending on the year!!

[Halfer]

Is it just me or do the answers to crop damage resultant from migratory as well as localized Elk boil down to 4 final answers on here? 1-Shoot the elk using any legal means(not a viable long term solution) 2-Chase the Elk(while the uncontrollable,maniacal laughter that accompanies this make it a particularly attractive alternative...it doesn't last) 3-Fence the Feed(costly,only partially effective and somewhat labour intensive.) 4-Be Clakjp and when you fail to drown the marauding Elk in strategically located,albeit poorly concieved,pitfall traps full of "ranchin' monies" resort to your boundless vocabulary in order to charm the little buggers off your land(to be effective,you have to actually BE Clakjp).

There is however an alternative to lucky #4,that while unconventional allows for safe relocation of any and all ungulates suspected of crop predation. You see,around the time that I learned carrying 400" sets of Elk antlers were starting to damage my lumbar vertabrae,I discovered that elk,while stubborn can be reasoned with. All one needs is a diaphragm call,a herd of elk and the average sheepguides worth of days afield spent conversing with them.
Once you master their language(akin to cantonese,just more gutteral with a different emphasis on certain "eeyuke" noises) simply camouflage yourself in a convenient bale,wait for their arrival in the evening and be firm with them.An example of this conversation would go something like this: "Elk,this is my hay,and while I realize it's difficult to paw through 18" of snow to eat fescue,I grew it and it's not yours to eat.IF you continue, I will shoot you in the face next september" the elk might answer this with a confused chirp. Follow up immediately as they can sense indecision on your part and will capitalize on it.Offer them alternatives such as "My neighbour has better feed nutritionally,eschews pesticide use and furthermore,will shine lights on it at night to aid your 24hours of straight feeding".

While only a loose guideline,this conversation or variations thereof have worked in the past to curb the excessive eating habits of approximately 375 head of elk south of the Bob Marshall Wildland and one 1800 pound mule named Lola. If even this approach fails you,I'd say it's time to call in Clakjp.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by Halfer

Is it just me or do the answers to crop damage resultant from migratory as well as localized Elk boil down to 4 final answers on here? 1-Shoot the elk using any legal means(not a viable long term solution) 2-Chase the Elk(while the uncontrollable,maniacal laughter that accompanies this make it a particularly attractive alternative...it doesn't last) 3-Fence the Feed(costly,only partially effective and somewhat labour intensive.) 4-Be Clakjp and when you fail to drown the marauding Elk in strategically located,albeit poorly concieved,pitfall traps full of "ranchin' monies" resort to your boundless vocabulary in order to charm the little buggers off your land(to be effective,you have to actually BE Clakjp).

There is however an alternative to lucky #4,that while unconventional allows for safe relocation of any and all ungulates suspected of crop predation. You see,around the time that I learned carrying 400" sets of Elk antlers were starting to damage my lumbar vertabrae,I discovered that elk,while stubborn can be reasoned with. All one needs is a diaphragm call,a herd of elk and the average sheepguides worth of days afield spent conversing with them.
Once you master their language(akin to cantonese,just more gutteral with a different emphasis on certain "eeyuke" noises) simply camouflage yourself in a convenient bale,wait for their arrival in the evening and be firm with them.An example of this conversation would go something like this: "Elk,this is my hay,and while I realize it's difficult to paw through 18" of snow to eat fescue,I grew it and it's not yours to eat.IF you continue, I will shoot you in the face next september" the elk might answer this with a confused chirp. Follow up immediately as they can sense indecision on your part and will capitalize on it.Offer them alternatives such as "My neighbour has better feed nutritionally,eschews pesticide use and furthermore,will shine lights on it at night to aid your 24hours of straight feeding".

While only a loose guideline,this conversation or variations thereof have worked in the past to curb the excessive eating habits of approximately 375 head of elk south of the Bob Marshall Wildland and one 1800 pound mule named Lola. If even this approach fails you,I'd say it's time to call in Clakjp.

I am new on here but why is it that people are so mean to other on this site?????????

[buddyhunter]

Originally Posted by Halfer

Is it just me or do the answers to crop damage resultant from migratory as well as localized Elk boil down to 4 final answers on here? 1-Shoot the elk using any legal means(not a viable long term solution) 2-Chase the Elk(while the uncontrollable,maniacal laughter that accompanies this make it a particularly attractive alternative...it doesn't last) 3-Fence the Feed(costly,only partially effective and somewhat labour intensive.) 4-Be Clakjp and when you fail to drown the marauding Elk in strategically located,albeit poorly concieved,pitfall traps full of "ranchin' monies" resort to your boundless vocabulary in order to charm the little buggers off your land(to be effective,you have to actually BE Clakjp).

There is however an alternative to lucky #4,that while unconventional allows for safe relocation of any and all ungulates suspected of crop predation. You see,around the time that I learned carrying 400" sets of Elk antlers were starting to damage my lumbar vertabrae,I discovered that elk,while stubborn can be reasoned with. All one needs is a diaphragm call,a herd of elk and the average sheepguides worth of days afield spent conversing with them.
Once you master their language(akin to cantonese,just more gutteral with a different emphasis on certain "eeyuke" noises) simply camouflage yourself in a convenient bale,wait for their arrival in the evening and be firm with them.An example of this conversation would go something like this: "Elk,this is my hay,and while I realize it's difficult to paw through 18" of snow to eat fescue,I grew it and it's not yours to eat.IF you continue, I will shoot you in the face next september" the elk might answer this with a confused chirp. Follow up immediately as they can sense indecision on your part and will capitalize on it.Offer them alternatives such as "My neighbour has better feed nutritionally,eschews pesticide use and furthermore,will shine lights on it at night to aid your 24hours of straight feeding".

While only a loose guideline,this conversation or variations thereof have worked in the past to curb the excessive eating habits of approximately 375 head of elk south of the Bob Marshall Wildland and one 1800 pound mule named Lola. If even this approach fails you,I'd say it's time to call in Clakjp.

another excellent post, if there was a poster of the year award, you would win.

[NCC]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Well, given that I'm also a taxpayer I'm paying for the subsidization and then the store prices. I'd rather just pay the full cost at the check-out. I have to say, with all due respect, I'm not in favour of taxpayers perpetually backing, subsidizing, and supporting one sort of business and not another. There are certain risks inherent in every business. Owners have to accept that. Oil prices go up and down, there are good and bad crop years, and some places have elk, predators, etc. Ranchers, like all business owners, know that going in.

Please explain how you, as a taxpayer, are subsidizing ranchers. I think he meant that ranchers were subsidizing food prices with cheap labor, not government hand outs.

If I have $15000 worth of swath grazing on a 100 acre field and 100 elk move in, something is going to have to give. Not only am I out the $15000 worth of feed, but I also have to buy $30000 worth of hay to replace the feed I'm out. If I put up a high fence around the field it will not only be cost prohibitive, but also disrupt all of the game movement. I could spend an extra $20 per bale rolling it up and hauling to the yard and back out to the cows, but I would rather not spend all summer haying and every night after work feeding cows. Fortunately, the elk haven't discovered my swath grazing yet but it will put me in a tight spot if they do.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by NCC

Please explain how you, as a taxpayer, are subsidizing ranchers. I think he meant that ranchers were subsidizing food prices with cheap labor, not government hand outs.

If I have $15000 worth of swath grazing on a 100 acre field and 100 elk move in, something is going to have to give. Not only am I out the $15000 worth of feed, but I also have to buy $30000 worth of hay to replace the feed I'm out. If I put up a high fence around the field it will not only be cost prohibitive, but also disrupt all of the game movement. I could spend an extra $20 per bale rolling it up and hauling to the yard and back out to the cows, but I would rather not spend all summer haying and every night after work feeding cows. Fortunately, the elk haven't discovered my swath grazing yet but it will put me in a tight spot if they do.

If the oil company stops drilling for a few months im out $30,000. Do I get any reinbursment, any subsidies, or anything? No its just part of being in the patch. If the economy slows and people arent building houses do the carpenters get anything... No! Its just the way it goes. Same as farming, if you leave your crop out and the elk eat it... tough ****, guess you should have spent the extra cash to bale it and build a stack yard fence.
If mother nature doesnt cooperate oh well every farmer knows this could happen. If they dont want the risk it get out of farming. I understand that farmers are needed to supply foods but to not spend a few grand on a fence is pretty lame.
SG

[Grizzly Adams]

Had a chat with my neighbor, last night. Other than informing me, another neighbor had managed to stick his foot in his mixer mill, he told me the elk were back, in spades, like a couple of hundred, between here and Bergen. What struck him, was the high cow, calf ratio, which he figured at damn near 1 to 1. Little sympathy from one CO, who had the balls to suggest he'd have to change his farming methods. He and his sons had Landowner cow licenses, but there were none to be found, during their season. The Natives have been called.
Grizz

[u_cant_rope_the_wind]

it's hard to understand the devastation that elk can cause. They can destroy thousands of dollars worth of feed every night, as they wreck 20 lbs of hay for every 1 lb they eat.

the thing is if an elk evan pee,s on or near a hay bale %99 of cattle will not eat that hay they dont like the sent of elk , if elk rub against a hay bale the cattle will not eat that bale, I do not codone calling in the poor poor natives as they will only be selling it down on 97 street edm , but i do beleive that if a farmer is haveing problems then special permits should be released on the farmers request, and thus payment for the permits should go for crop and feed damadge or a simalar program be put in place

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

The Natives have been called.
Grizz

Guess they wont have to worry about shooting elk on a landowner tag next year either!!!

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by u_cant_rope_the_wind

it's hard to understand the devastation that elk can cause. They can destroy thousands of dollars worth of feed every night, as they wreck 20 lbs of hay for every 1 lb they eat.

the thing is if an elk evan pee,s on or near a hay bale %99 of cattle will not eat that hay they dont like the sent of elk , if elk rub against a hay bale the cattle will not eat that bale, I do not codone calling in the poor poor natives as they will only be selling it down on 97 street edm , but i do beleive that if a farmer is haveing problems then special permits should be released on the farmers request, and thus payment for the permits should go for crop and feed damadge or a simalar program be put in place

So every hay bale an elk goes near is wasted? Come on ive seen thousands of bales over the years that the elk have gotten into and the bales have always been fed and have always been eaten! My step Dad fed cows for a guy a couple years ago and 30 head of elk were in the bales everynight. The cows ate the bales just fine.
I realize that they do rip a few bales apart but its part of farming and ranching in elk country!
SG

[NCC]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

If the oil company stops drilling for a few months im out $30,000. Do I get any reinbursment, any subsidies, or anything? No its just part of being in the patch. If the economy slows and people arent building houses do the carpenters get anything... No! Its just the way it goes. Same as farming, if you leave your crop out and the elk eat it... tough ****, guess you should have spent the extra cash to bale it and build a stack yard fence.
If mother nature doesnt cooperate oh well every farmer knows this could happen. If they dont want the risk it get out of farming. I understand that farmers are needed to supply foods but to not spend a few grand on a fence is pretty lame.
SG

If oil drops from $140 per barrel to $30 per barrel, the oil companies do everyting they can to keep their head above water. When calf prices drop by 40%, ranchers will do the same. Spending a few grand fencing is nothing, spending an extra $100 per head every year wintering your cows is very significant. As for all the farmers getting out, well it's happening. When the corporate farms have it all, and they clear every tree for miles to allow for 60foot air seeders and won't let anyone on to hunt for fear of liability, see how good the hunting is then. What the corporate farms don't have, the acerage owners will. We know how most of them feel about allowing access for hunting. As a hunter I don't mind feeding the elk a little. Most of the ranchers and farmers I know would rather have the natives kill 30 elk than feed 5. The elk around Cow Lake have pretty much been wiped out because of all the cow tags given out to appease farmers. It would make more sense to me find a solution other than the farmers saying **** the elk and the hunters saying **** the farmers.

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Guess they wont have to worry about shooting elk on a landowner tag next year either!!!

True, but irrelevant, when you have bigger problems to deal with and it's the only solution. Nobody likes to go that route.
Grizz

[BowhuntAB]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

So every hay bale an elk goes near is wasted? Come on ive seen thousands of bales over the years that the elk have gotten into and the bales have always been fed and have always been eaten! My step Dad fed cows for a guy a couple years ago and 30 head of elk were in the bales everynight. The cows ate the bales just fine.
I realize that they do rip a few bales apart but its part of farming and ranching in elk country!
SG

Lots get wasted. I helpped a guy fence around an area where his bails where destroyed by about 100 elk. We later moved the cows in and i'd say close to 1/2 was not consumed. Some bedded in it but they didnt want much to do with it. In the end they pushed the garbage hay into a heep and burned it.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by NCC

Please explain how you, as a taxpayer, are subsidizing ranchers. I think he meant that ranchers were subsidizing food prices with cheap labor, not government hand outs.
.

You're kidding me, right? Do you really want me to list off all the government programs, both federal and provincial, that hand cash to ranchers and farmers? In 2008 the Alberta Livestock and Meat Strategy alone handed out $300 million to 25,000 livestock producers in the province. What was spent on BSE compensation and support? Lots of programs like that. On the subject of this thread alone there is the Wildlife Damage Compensation Program.

[NCC]

Lets hear about all the programs. The $300 million you talked about will go to administration, food safety and attempts at finding new markets. Most of the BSE money went to feedlots and that dried up 6 or 7 years ago. The majority of the "free money" and assistance announced by the government are short term loans that have to be paid back the same as if the money came from a bank. I wish the government would quit offering these programs because the tiny amount of benefit that trickles down to the producers isn't worth the administration and dealing with people who think that ranchers are all on welfare. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the crop and feed damage compensation paid out comes from money raised by hunting licenses. Government money but hardly a tax. Same with intercept feeding. Leave it up to the ranchers and they will deal with problem wildlife on their own. Most people won't approve of the methods though.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by NCC

Lets hear about all the programs.

Here are just the Provincial ones. You can read up on these and research the federal ones youself.

Loans & Financing
ATB Financial's 4-H Loan Program (ATB Financial)
Advance Payments Program (Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada)
Advance Payments Program (APP) (after harvest) (Canadian Wheat Board)
Advance Payments Program (Pre-harvest) (Canadian Wheat Board)
Alberta Disaster Assistance Loan Program (AFSC)
Alberta Farm Loan Program (AFSC)
Bioenergy Infrastructure Development Program (Alberta Energy)
Biorefining Commercialization and Market Development Program (Alberta Energy)
Breeders' Association Financing Program (ATB Financial)
Canadian Commercial Corporation (Canadian Commercial Corporation)
Capital Sourcing Program (AFSC)
Commercial Loan Program (AFSC)
Crop Input Financing (Farm Credit Canada)
Equity Agri-Plan Loan (ATB Financial)
FCC Ventures (Farm Credit Canada)
Farm Improvement and Marketing Cooperatives Loans Act (FIMCLA) Program (Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada)
Feeder Association Financing Program (ATB Financial)
Feeder Associations Guarantee Program (Alberta Agriculture and Rural Development)
Feeder Cattle and Breeding Livestock (Farm Credit Canada)
Josephburg Agricultural Society Scholarship Application (Alberta Agriculture and Rural Development) Application deadline: Oct 31, 2009
Loan Programs (Farm Credit Canada)
National Equipment Dealers Finance Program (Farm Credit Canada)
Price Pooling Program (Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada)
Retail Financing Program (Farm Credit Canada)
Specific Loan Guarantee Program (AFSC)
Value Added & Agribusiness Program (VAAP) (AFSC)

Support Programs
AgriStability (AFSC)
Agricultural Initiatives Program (Alberta Agriculture and Rural Development)
Agrivalue Fund (AVAC)
Alberta Farm Fuel Benefit (AFFB) (Alberta Agriculture and Rural Development)
Alberta Farm Recovery Plan (AFSC)
Alberta Livestock and Meat Agency Programs (Alberta Livestock and Meat Agency)
Canada-Alberta BSE Surveillance Program (Alberta Agriculture and Rural Development)
Canadian Agricultural Income Stabilization (AFSC)
Interest Rebate Program (Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada and Feeder Associations of Alberta)
Internship Program with Innovative SMEs (National Research Council) Application deadline: Mar 31, 2009
Rural Alberta's Development Fund (Rural Alberta's Development Fund)
Rural Community Adaptation Grant Program (Alberta Agriculture and Rural Development)
Rural Connections: Community Broadband Infrastructure Pilot Program (Alberta Agriculture and Rural Development)
Wildfire Cost Assessment Review (Alberta Agriculture and Rural Development)
Wildlife Damage Compensation (AFSC)

Here's the Alberta Ag dept budget. Page 37 shows the amounts spent on support programs, insurance, etc. http://www.finance.alberta.ca/public...2009/agric.pdf

[NCC]

Pretty much what I said. Mostly loans that have to be paid back, a few sponserships, and some producer funded incentives.

[BowhuntAB]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

What happened with F&W? You had video evidence, the owner knew who he got to come hunt. F&W doesn't have to catch people in the act to make a charge stick. Smells fishy. I wonder if the landowner did anything illegal by inviting them to hunt on his land out of season?

Sorry forgot about this post!!

Nothing happened because they where native. I still have the video. Who no's where the F&W where??? They came out looked around and left. Obviously nothing happened (as far as i know) because they were native. The land owner spoke to a native guy from Eden Valley and told them they where welcome to come out. Thats all it takes, lots of locals do this...unfortunatly.

[rielbowhunter]

Originally Posted by clakjp

Thanks Billy

Your welcome Justin.

[Mudguy]

Originally Posted by BowhuntAB

Sorry forgot about this post!!

Nothing happened because they where native. I still have the video. Who no's where the F&W where??? They came out looked around and left. Obviously nothing happened (as far as i know) because they were native. The land owner spoke to a native guy from Eden Valley and told them they where welcome to come out. Thats all it takes, lots of locals do this...unfortunatly.

Post the video it would be very interesting to see.

[BowhuntAB]

Originally Posted by Mudguy

Post the video it would be very interesting to see.

This was like 7 years ago. Its on a little sony tape not a disc. If i can figure out a way i will. Its bad! Like the old days shooting bison on the plans only this is not bows and horses its 300 mags and F350's!

Watched it the other day again. Pretty dramatic. The neighbor i am standing with is like 80 y/o and shes screaming the entire time.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by NCC

Pretty much what I said. Mostly loans that have to be paid back, a few sponserships, and some producer funded incentives.

True enough. When you take out the things you mention, there's only about a billion dollars a year of government handouts and subsidies on top of that. Peanuts really. We both agree the handouts can and should stop. Ok, that's solved.

[u_cant_rope_the_wind]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

So every hay bale an elk goes near is wasted? Come on ive seen thousands of bales over the years that the elk have gotten into and the bales have always been fed and have always been eaten! My step Dad fed cows for a guy a couple years ago and 30 head of elk were in the bales everynight. The cows ate the bales just fine.
I realize that they do rip a few bales apart but its part of farming and ranching in elk country!
SG

yes i have seen several different farmers cattle that wont touch hay that has evan a trace of elk sent on it evan from elk just rubbung against it wth their heads , it must leave some kind sent from those glands by their eys and such ,the farmers had to grind the hay and mix it wth grain and other feed such as straw before their cattle would eat it ,same as siladge pits elk can realy destroy them just peeing and crapping in them, ive seen 200 hrad on one hay stack before it dont take that many elk very long to waste a winters worth of feed, and that is why i say yes helpthe farmer out, in some way, but to call in the native bands and destroy the elk heards thats just being chicken poop, and takeing the easy way out, on the fish and feathers and all involved for those kinda actions, like what happened to the elk heards north of Niton junction and nojack, and i seen that wth my own eyes, native bands came in wth reefer vans , shot them off day and night on a few farmers land, then people ask why they cant find elk in wmu348, ask the local farmers ,why

[Ranchlady]

I stumbled across this thread whilst trying to find a solution to our elk problem, and some of your comments here angered me so much, I had to respond.

Cattle will not eat hay that has been in contact with elk - at least, our cattle won't. And neither will our horses.

We have been trying to come up with a solution to the elk problem for several years now. We have allowed hunting on our land (the elk don't generally appear in great numbers until after hunting season ends), we have fenced our feed stack with wire provided by F&W, (but we had to supply the posts and do the work), we have tried bangers, we have tried shooting over their heads, we have tried everything that F&W have suggested. The fence has saved our stacks (we had one stack of 60 bales totally destroyed and stomped into the ground a few years ago) but when we put the bales out for our animals to eat, the elk can and do chase them away. F&W suggested feeding in our corral - "elk won't go into the corral" - the elk literally destroyed our corral in their attempts to get at the feed.

Okotokian, you seem to have some kind of resentment toward ranchers, which saddens me. All of those gov't subsidy programs you posted? Are LOANS, not subsidies. We don't need handouts, we need support from the people we are feeding! Those prices you pay in the supermarket for your food? Most of it goes to the feedlots, the slaughterhouses, the supermarkets themselves. We, as ranchers, see very little of it. Both my husband and I have jobs off-ranch in order to continue our "hobby" of trying to raise food for people who then turn around and accuse us of being lazy welfare recipients with our hands out.

If anyone here has concrete suggestions as to an actual solution to the elk problem, I would love to hear it.

[elkrub]

Very well said!
elkrub

[Ranchlady]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

If the oil company stops drilling for a few months im out $30,000. Do I get any reinbursment, any subsidies, or anything? No its just part of being in the patch. If the economy slows and people arent building houses do the carpenters get anything... No! Its just the way it goes. Same as farming, if you leave your crop out and the elk eat it... tough ****, guess you should have spent the extra cash to bale it and build a stack yard fence.
If mother nature doesnt cooperate oh well every farmer knows this could happen. If they dont want the risk it get out of farming. I understand that farmers are needed to supply foods but to not spend a few grand on a fence is pretty lame.
SG

Don't worry - a lot of us ARE getting out of it! I wonder if you'll feel the same lack of sympathy for ranchers when all the small operations go out of business and the big corporations control the food industry?

[elkhunter11]

They should have to put up there own fence and wrap there own bails. Why should taxpayers pay for there farm.

Who do the elk doing the damage belong to?

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Ranchlady

Don't worry - a lot of us ARE getting out of it! I wonder if you'll feel the same lack of sympathy for ranchers when all the small operations go out of business and the big corporations control the food industry?

Maybe you would like to help out people in other industries when they are out of work due to a poor economy? They get no help at all. They deal with it and get through. If need be they get another job.

Ranchers are needed but as the thread started if you loose your hay stack because you didnt wanna fence or protect your hay then thats to bad. Not my issue and not the elks fault. If someone lives in Elk country they have to be pro active to avoid loss but by doing nothing and expecting to be reinbursed or subsidised is just stupid why put up the hay at all just get the gov't to buy you some!!!!