Problem Elk

[clakjp]

Originally Posted by sonny

Does this farmer allow hunting on his property during hunting season,if so as said before on earlier post , the Fish@Wildlife will supply fence, landowner will have to setup fence.
SRD, and Fish@Wildlife must be notified first.

They should have to put up there own fence and wrap there own bails. Why should taxpayers pay for there farm.If they did all of this and allow hunting then ok. But really That is a cost of doing buisness just like the rest of the world.

[u_cant_rope_the_wind]

Originally Posted by clakjp

What do you mean? as far as I figure anybody that agrees with it. Courts.

exactly what i said start a fund and take the government to court and change the laws , i dont beleive the courts are the government, who is the government???? are the people not the government???? or is this a communist or dictatorship country??? do we not have a say??? start a patition, to stop the off season hunting of so called special rights persons, arent we all equal in this country??? or is there realy racism in our governmenment??

[clakjp]

Originally Posted by u_cant_rope_the_wind

exactly what i said start a fund and take the government to court and change the laws , i dont beleive the courts are the government, who is the government???? are the people not the government???? or is this a communist or dictatorship country??? do we not have a say??? start a patition, to stop the off season hunting of so called special rights persons, arent we all equal in this country??? or is there realy racism in our governmenment??

Thanks for making that clear. I will do that.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by clakjp

They should have to put up there own fence and wrap there own bails. Why should taxpayers pay for there farm.If they did all of this and allow hunting then ok. But really That is a cost of doing buisness just like the rest of the world.

Do you enjoy eating relativly cheap subsidized food?

If so end of discussion.

If not factor in land, operating cost, and commodity prices for your average farmer especialy one just starting out.

Wildlife is managed to the benefit of the majority not a minority.

[packhuntr]

Sorry IRMike. You are wrong. Fish and wildlife is not managed for the majority of people to enjoy. Every year, first priority is native harvest, we take a back seat. Our so called "sport hunting" is what you get when fish and wildlife are only seen as a needed thing for one group of people. We are only brought into the equation to harvest excess animals. Ask yourself why do we ~ETHICALLY HAVE TO~ practice sound catch and release practices while natives are allowed to net these same bodies of water,,, many being collapsed and stunted... I know why. We solely are attempting to preserve these fisheries for our childrens future. If something catastrophic happened to our fish and wildlife, we would not be allowed to continue to hunt and fish for food, as once again, natives come first. Its our money that is rebuilding, managing, protecting and providing opportunity for our children will follow these creatures into the future. Priorities are some messed up here. This is only one example Mike. The management of fish and wildlife is not what you think it is my friend, sad as it is.... Sorry for the hijack fellas.

[AB2506]

Whether you like unrestricted native harvest is not the point. It is not racist. Our government signed treaties that guaranteed this right for natives. We have a contract (treaty) that we must honor. Whether or not they still need this right, is a totally different question.

I also think this right should only apply to bands that have signed the treaties. Bands like the Lubicons should not have this right as their forefathers did not sign the treaty that applied to them.

JMO.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by clakjp

Just like when you were a kid did your parents tell you THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK? That applies to alot of people on here.They say stupid things just to make people mad or try to be cool.

Good advice. You should have followed it before you told another poster to "go screw a cat" and then went on a tirade.

[u_cant_rope_the_wind]

Originally Posted by clakjp

Thanks for making that clear. I will do that.

I hope ya kow I,m jst pullin yer wagon tryin to get a rise outa ya

[clakjp]

Originally Posted by u_cant_rope_the_wind

I hope ya kow I,m jst pullin yer wagon tryin to get a rise outa ya

I dont really care.Thanks for all the nice comments.I really like how you all think.

[u_cant_rope_the_wind]

Originally Posted by clakjp

They should have to put up there own fence and wrap there own bails. Why should taxpayers pay for there farm.If they did all of this and allow hunting then ok. But really That is a cost of doing buisness just like the rest of the world.

in part i do agree wth you clakjp,
but in other parts that is why we pay for a wildlife certificate, and those funds should go to help keep the animals from wasteing the poor poor farmers feed, not to pay some idiot to make new laws we dont agree on like RAMP,
then if the farmer dont allow hunting on his property he shouldnt be eligable for any compensation piriod,but if we do our part wth helping him out to keep the wildlife from destroying his cattle feed, then farmers dont get it in their heads well jees i feed them, they destroy my hay i now own them, you want to hunt them on my land i should have compensation , you pay me $1500 a year to hunt on my land, its a vicious circle wouldnt you agree???

[Whiskey Wish]

This is a far more complex issue than some of you seem to understand. I have a bro-in-law that has severe elk issues. He has spent untold hours and dollars trying to find solutions. The elk are not stupid, when he allows hunters on the land they drop south into large tracts of bush and onto farms that do not allow hunting. Hunters have had varying amounts of success year by year, some years 4 or 5 are lucky, some years none. The elk stay south until heavy snow and cold force them out, ie Dec-Jan, then they arrive by the hundred. He has a landowner permit which allows him one elk which he shoots every year then donates. This keeps the elk off his land for about 3 days at best. He has built his own fences and HUGE buildings which house ALL of his feed stocks. The elk wait for him to feed his cows then move in and drive the cows off their feed and eat it themselves. An ordinary beef cow will not stand up to elk any more than a domestic dog will stand up to a pack of wolves. In desperation he has called in the natives in the past. Over a dozen of them showed up and hid in his bale yard. F&W sat on the highway and video taped the event. ( In an attempt to find a way to lay charges against my bro-in-law we believe.) When 70 some odd elk showed up World War 3 started. After all the smoke and dust had settled there was one dead cow, one gut shot cow that they tracked and shot in the field and one unknown gender wounded elk they never found. They loaded their meat and left. About 4 days later my bro-in-law called me and said he had almost 100 elk grazing his alfalfa. Any farmer knows if you winter graze alfalfa heavily you will severly damage that crop. He has gone out and fired shots over their heads with mixed results. Once they took off running and hit his fence and tore out a 1/4 mile of wire and posts. Once they took off and crossed Highway 16 en mass and travelled through dozens of vehicles travelling at highway speeds.
My bro-in law has done everything he can to try and solve this problem and 90% of it has been out of his pocket. F&W has given him enough elk fence to cover approx. 100 yards which was paid for by the Wildlife Fund which is funded by hunting licences which my bro-in-law happily allows on his land. He has no control over his neighbours which are, more and more, town folk who move to the country to enjoy nature (see Bambi....) and do not allow hunting. I have pictures of 63 head of deer eating beside my cows after I processed out my hay in the field. I do nothing about this because deer do not damage as much feed as elk and I believe I have to give back to mother nature. I allow hunting on my land and this year 4 good bucks were legally taken, 2 were poached and left and a number of hunters enjoyed themselves. My neighbour called me a few days ago and said he counted 127 elk in a field 1 mile south of me. That same field looked like Saving Private Ryan this past fall from start to finish of hunting season. It was hunted, poached, jack-lighted, driven over, flown over, staked out, watched day and night and before the year was over contained 127 head of elk. This same neighbour has gone out and torn his triple stacked hay down to resuce cow elk that have climbed on TOP of 3 round bales then fallen down between them. They went in while the gate was open because he was feeding his cows. He could have let them die and saved himself the work and cost and reduced the elk herd by 3 but he rescued them because it was the right thing to do. Stupid farmer eh??!!
This is not a simple issue and I take offence at those of you who propose simple solutions and call farmers stupid. I would suggest that you take a look at your dinner plate tonight and consider where your food comes from....and NO VIRGINIA...MILK DOES NOT COME FROM SAFEWAYS!

Keep Your Powder Dry,
Dave.

[clakjp]

Originally Posted by u_cant_rope_the_wind

in part i do agree wth you clakjp,
but in other parts that is why we pay for a wildlife certificate, and those funds should go to help keep the animals from wasteing the poor poor farmers feed, not to pay some idiot to make new laws we dont agree on like RAMP,
then if the farmer dont allow hunting on his property he shouldnt be eligable for any compensation piriod,but if we do our part wth helping him out to keep the wildlife from destroying his cattle feed, then farmers dont get it in their heads well jees i feed them, they destroy my hay i now own them, you want to hunt them on my land i should have compensation , you pay me $1500 a year to hunt on my land, its a vicious circle wouldnt you agree???

I agree in what you are saying but they should have to do ther part aswell so they dont have problems. It is a write off for them aswell.Our wildlife cert. As for the guy who does all of this and his neibour does not allow hunting I feel for thoose people. That is a whole nother subject.

[NCC]

What's a write off for farmers? The hay that the elk are wrecking - yes. The fencing is an improvement and only the depreciation is a tax write off. That's like saying it's OK for me to throw a rock through a business's window because they can write off the repair. If, like one poster suggested, it should be up to the "dumb farmer" to look after it on his own, phoning the local native band will be a likely resolution. If that's what F and W suggests when consulted for help, it's hard to blame the farmer for following directions. For those who don't ranch, it's hard to understand the devastation that elk can cause. They can destroy thousands of dollars worth of feed every night, as they wreck 20 lbs of hay for every 1 lb they eat.

I don't know the answer to this problem. The past two years, the elk around our place have showed up in the hay stacks just before Christmas. It's like they know when the cow season closes. Someone on the forum once suggested that an elk tag should be good for either sex, all over the province (except draw zones) and any time of year. I think that would keep the elk in the bush all winter. If you don't allow hunting, well, I guess you can feed the elk for the rest of us.

[RumRugby]

Well, if the cattle business doesn't pan out, I say put a fence around them elk and start up an elk farm lol! Probably wouldn't work, but it's the thought that counts!
My brother in law had an issue with bears tearing open their bee hives. When the hives cost around $400-500/hive and he's seein $10,000+ been eaten from his pocket he turned to the F&W. They told him he couldn't trap or shoot them until he asked where to send the bill for damages. . .they seemed to change their toon right quick, told him just shoot them if they start getting into the hives.
On another note, I find it funny when people say, just write it off as a business expense. It's not entirely that simple, for one you still have to dish out the cash to begin with and secondly there is only so much you can write off per year.

[BowhuntAB]

Bottom line is putting up a fenceis the only solution!

I have friends that have put out Canons, lights and chase them away at all hours of the night on quads. They get use to the canon and lights within a few days. Chasing them works til you leave.

One guy i know did eventually call the natives in. OMG the worst thing i have ever seen! They ripped around the field in a pick up blasting out of the windows and out of the back of the moving truck. In the end they killed 7 cows and calfs and 2 bulls. I sat there and video taped it not knowing what was going on. I called the F&W to report what i thought was poaching. 6 hours later they showed up by witch time all the elk where gutted and loaded and outta there. When i later spoke to the land owner and showed him the video he was horrified! Never again he said, then i helpped him put up a fence. Problem solved!

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by BowhuntAB

Bottom line is putting up a fenceis the only solution!

I have friends that have put out Canons, lights and chase them away at all hours of the night on quads. They get use to the canon and lights within a few days. Chasing them works til you leave.

One guy i know did eventually call the natives in. OMG the worst thing i have ever seen! They ripped around the field in a pick up blasting out of the windows and out of the back of the moving truck. In the end they killed 7 cows and calfs and 2 bulls. I sat there and video taped it not knowing what was going on. I called the F&W to report what i thought was poaching. 6 hours later they showed up by witch time all the elk where gutted and loaded and outta there. When i later spoke to the land owner and showed him the video he was horrified! Never again he said, then i helpped him put up a fence. Problem solved!

What happened with F&W? You had video evidence, the owner knew who he got to come hunt. F&W doesn't have to catch people in the act to make a charge stick. Smells fishy. I wonder if the landowner did anything illegal by inviting them to hunt on his land out of season?

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

What happened with F&W? You had video evidence, the owner knew who he got to come hunt. F&W doesn't have to catch people in the act to make a charge stick. Smells fishy. I wonder if the landowner did anything illegal by inviting them to hunt on his land out of season?

Wasnt out of season!! It was natives!
Only thing they could have got them for is discharging firearms from the vehicles.

[ungodly]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

What happened with F&W? You had video evidence, the owner knew who he got to come hunt. F&W doesn't have to catch people in the act to make a charge stick. Smells fishy. I wonder if the landowner did anything illegal by inviting them to hunt on his land out of season?

As long as it is for substanance, they Indians don't have a set hunting season.

[clakjp]

As for a write off I ment the dollars to put up the fence. I grew up on a ranch and if there was elk in the area everybody had fences up. 90% of ranches are payed off cause they have been in the family fo years. So what is a couple hundred $$ for a fence? If they cant do that they shouldnt complain about the elk eating the bails.How many people that have responded on this post even own a ranch or grew up on land that have elk? I have seen it all first hand.I understand there pain but if there was a fence they cant eat his feed. As per a post about the elk chacing the cattle off that is a new one to me. but maybe he should stick around and make sure that doesnot happen.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Wasnt out of season!! It was natives!
Only thing they could have got them for is discharging firearms from the vehicles.

Brain freeze. My bad. I was thinking Metis. The of course you can debate what's poaching and what's not.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Sorry IRMike. You are wrong. Fish and wildlife is not managed for the majority of people to enjoy. Every year, first priority is native harvest, we take a back seat. Our so called "sport hunting" is what you get when fish and wildlife are only seen as a needed thing for one group of people. We are only brought into the equation to harvest excess animals. Ask yourself why do we ~ETHICALLY HAVE TO~ practice sound catch and release practices while natives are allowed to net these same bodies of water,,, many being collapsed and stunted... I know why. We solely are attempting to preserve these fisheries for our childrens future. If something catastrophic happened to our fish and wildlife, we would not be allowed to continue to hunt and fish for food, as once again, natives come first. Its our money that is rebuilding, managing, protecting and providing opportunity for our children will follow these creatures into the future. Priorities are some messed up here. This is only one example Mike. The management of fish and wildlife is not what you think it is my friend, sad as it is.... Sorry for the hijack fellas.

Looking back I guess it was a "blanket" statement.
I had not factored in treaty hunting or fisheries either.

I'll apologise ahead of time for the partial off topic hijack in reply.

It was explained to me by a former regional biologist for srd that in regards to management they try to enact seasons and draw allotment #s to create a balance for all.
Unfortunatly you are right we as sport hunters are in the minority and get "hind tit" when it comes down to it.

For a example: (first of a few) When they are determine the amount of moose draws allowed in the agricultural zones outside edmonton (not talking the bow/shotgun only zones) they are factoring in wildlife auto collisions and the associated costs in areas where they commonly occur.

In October 2007 a freind of mine did have a collision with a young bull on hi way 28 north of redwater. Minivan was totalled, moose came over the hood into the cab. Lets say 12,000$ payout thru private insurance. Cost of emergency/ambulance personell to the scene then into edmonton?? I am not sure.
The cost of 1 months hospitilization and the 1 year of physio she figured was required to regain movement/motor skills, I could not even guess the financial cost on the health system.
Thats from one albeit serious collision.

Back to the elk.
SRD and Alberta hail and crop are both govt entities and while the govt has no problem collecting revinue...they sure have a prob giving it out especially in regards to wildlife issues.

In 2004 A rancher in 332 told me in a previous winter he had been compensated for 12,000 dollars of stacked feed. I do not know if fencing was a viable option but he does hunt as well as allow access to others. He stated propane guns and putting the chase on them didn't work. He was not the only one experiencing problems in that area.

I live in the NE corner of wmu 502 (no elk season) 2 miles away is a elk farm. There is a small # of wild elk in the area and when they come to the fence during the rut the farmer phones srd they come shoot the elk.

I questioned one of the officers as to why once and the reply was: "Its along provincial policy to limit the expansion of elk into new areas"

Once again you are correct, the last thing the province is factoring in to management decisions is future oppurtunities for us or are children but, I dont think they put a whole lot of consideration into how treaty hunting effects ungulate #s or ensuring there is animals availible for treaty hunters.

As AB2506 stated its been in place for so long its something we have to deal with. Personally I agree priorities are messed up....especially in regards to fisheries management like the example you posted.

I think a closed lake should be closed to everybody. (I am surrounded by both lakes and aboriginal communities) Treaty harvest in regards to fishing on closed lakes is a very hotly debated topic up here and has been since the lake closures.

I have also stated on here before that there should be MANDATORY registration of game for treaty hunters. (sheephunter responded that it may not be enforcable though) after I posted a while ago.

So in short I would like ungulates managed to increase oppurtunities for guys like you and me, but our provincial govt goes for the easy fix/low cost dealing with the publics money solutions because guys like us are in the minority.

Best in 2010 Packhunter (especialy in the fall)
Hope to see more of your pics posted.

[Whiskey Wish]

Originally Posted by clakjp

As for a write off I ment the dollars to put up the fence. I grew up on a ranch and if there was elk in the area everybody had fences up. 90% of ranches are payed off cause they have been in the family fo years. So what is a couple hundred $$ for a fence? If they cant do that they shouldnt complain about the elk eating the bails.How many people that have responded on this post even own a ranch or grew up on land that have elk? I have seen it all first hand.I understand there pain but if there was a fence they cant eat his feed. As per a post about the elk chacing the cattle off that is a new one to me. but maybe he should stick around and make sure that doesnot happen.

Normally I do not respond to garbage posts like this but I cannot stand by while someone who obviously does not have a clue what they are talking about spreads dis-information to people that have a need to know the truth. While I was severely tempted to use stronger language I believe in this site being a family site so have reined in my normally "colourful" descriptive language.

"90% of ranches are payed off cause they have been in the family fo years."

Statistics Canada
Agriculture Division
Farm Income and Prices Section
Farm Debt Outstanding

Farm debt outstanding at December 31, 2008 rose to $58.0 billion, up 5.2% from December 31, 2007, continuing
the steady upswing since 1993. For the third consecutive year, mortgage debt was greater than non-mortgage debt.
In 2008, mortgaged debt rose 4.7% to $29.5 billion, while non-mortgaged debt rose 5.8% to $28.5 billion.
The farm debt values in the farm debt outstanding series includes those of farm businesses and non-operator
landlords (for liabilities outstanding on farm real estate leased to farm operators), they also include the personal
portion of farm households. This series includes all farm sector liabilities regardless of ownership.
Major holders of mortgaged farm debt were Farm Credit Canada (43.2%), chartered banks (26.3%), credit unions
(10.4%), private individuals (11.0%) and provincial government agencies (4.8%). Most non-mortgaged debt was
owed to chartered banks (51.6%) and credit unions (24.1%).
Farm debt in Canada was 14.4% above the previous five-year average, from 2003 to 2007. In 2008, all provinces
increased their debt load, increases ranged from 1.7% in Prince Edward Island to 9.9% in Newfoundland and
Labrador.



"So what is a couple hundred $$ for a fence?"

Figuring 8 rounds bales to feed one beef cow for an entire winter and each round bale is 5x6, for a 100 cow herd that would require 800 round bales.
Leaving NO extra room and stacking the bales 2 high would require an area approx. 270 feet each end x 100 each side. That equals approx. 640 feet to fence. Elk fence at UFA costs $449.99 plus GST for 330 feet x 8 feet tall. Again, leaving NO extra room for turning etc. that works out to approx $900.00 and change to fence 640 feet. Treated posts are approx. $12.50 per post and 86 posts are required to fence 640 feet plus gate = $1075.00. One pail of fence staples = $82.00. Now add cost of fuel, labour etc.
I don't know what farm you were raised on but my Pa taught me there is a hell of a lot of difference between $200 and $2057.00.
PLUS...once the fence is built that STILL does not stop the elk because they will move in and drive cows off of the feeder when the farmer puts out the feed for his cows.

In the mildest language I can bring myself to say at this moment:
You, sir, are an idiot!

Keep Your Powder Dry,
Dave.

[Uncle John]

X2 Whiskey Wish, well said and thankyou!!

[clakjp]

Originally Posted by Whiskey Wish

Normally I do not respond to garbage posts like this but I cannot stand by while someone who obviously does not have a clue what they are talking about spreads dis-information to people that have a need to know the truth. While I was severely tempted to use stronger language I believe in this site being a family site so have reined in my normally "colourful" descriptive language.

"90% of ranches are payed off cause they have been in the family fo years."

Statistics Canada
Agriculture Division
Farm Income and Prices Section
Farm Debt Outstanding

Farm debt outstanding at December 31, 2008 rose to $58.0 billion, up 5.2% from December 31, 2007, continuing
the steady upswing since 1993. For the third consecutive year, mortgage debt was greater than non-mortgage debt.
In 2008, mortgaged debt rose 4.7% to $29.5 billion, while non-mortgaged debt rose 5.8% to $28.5 billion.
The farm debt values in the farm debt outstanding series includes those of farm businesses and non-operator
landlords (for liabilities outstanding on farm real estate leased to farm operators), they also include the personal
portion of farm households. This series includes all farm sector liabilities regardless of ownership.
Major holders of mortgaged farm debt were Farm Credit Canada (43.2%), chartered banks (26.3%), credit unions
(10.4%), private individuals (11.0%) and provincial government agencies (4.8%). Most non-mortgaged debt was
owed to chartered banks (51.6%) and credit unions (24.1%).
Farm debt in Canada was 14.4% above the previous five-year average, from 2003 to 2007. In 2008, all provinces
increased their debt load, increases ranged from 1.7% in Prince Edward Island to 9.9% in Newfoundland and
Labrador.



"So what is a couple hundred $$ for a fence?"

Figuring 8 rounds bales to feed one beef cow for an entire winter and each round bale is 5x6, for a 100 cow herd that would require 800 round bales.
Leaving NO extra room and stacking the bales 2 high would require an area approx. 270 feet each end x 100 each side. That equals approx. 640 feet to fence. Elk fence at UFA costs $449.99 plus GST for 330 feet x 8 feet tall. Again, leaving NO extra room for turning etc. that works out to approx $900.00 and change to fence 640 feet. Treated posts are approx. $12.50 per post and 86 posts are required to fence 640 feet plus gate = $1075.00. One pail of fence staples = $82.00. Now add cost of fuel, labour etc.
I don't know what farm you were raised on but my Pa taught me there is a hell of a lot of difference between $200 and $2057.00.
PLUS...once the fence is built that STILL does not stop the elk because they will move in and drive cows off of the feeder when the farmer puts out the feed for his cows.

In the mildest language I can bring myself to say at this moment:
You, sir, are an idiot!

Keep Your Powder Dry,
Dave.

Your stats Can. is for farms not ranches Sorry The fense cost a few thousand $$$$. So what. I grew up in cow country and I never saw the cow getting pushed off feeders back then. I am glad you corrected me on that.

[220swifty]

Originally Posted by clakjp

Your stats can is for farms not ranches and the only debt is them buying equipment and if they were to go and buy more landand cattle. Sorry The fense cost a couple thousand $$$$. So what. I grew up in cow country and I never saw the cow getting pushed off feeders back then. I am glad you corrected me on that.I am woundering are you guys ranchers or do you believe everything that you read from the government.

Go outside and see if you can club some smarts into your head. After that, come back in and post something intelligent please.

I am pretty sure i have read all 32 of your posts tonight, and the majority of them are pretty ridiculous and make you out to sound a little simple.

[IR_mike]

[QUOTE=clakjp;474177]Your stats can is for farms not ranches and the only debt is them buying equipment and if they were to go and buy more landand cattle. /QUOTE]

Diesel and fertilizer were free back home?

[sheepguide]

clackjp your not earning much respect on here. You argue points without showing much proof. Proove where your ideas come from and maybe you wouldnt get so much slack.

[sheepguide]

[QUOTE=IR_mike;474197]

Originally Posted by clakjp

Your stats can is for farms not ranches and the only debt is them buying equipment and if they were to go and buy more landand cattle. /QUOTE]

Diesel and fertilizer were free back home?

Dont forget the free maintanance on the equipment!!!!

[rielbowhunter]

Originally Posted by Uncle John

X2 Whiskey Wish, well said and thankyou!!

"In the mildest language I can bring myself to say at this moment:
You, sir, are an idiot!"

2x glad someone said it.

[clakjp]

[QUOTE=sheepguide;474202]

Originally Posted by IR_mike

Dont forget the free maintanance on the equipment!!!!

I removed that part from what I said cause I know there is way more stuff than that. I am talking the land not the year to year things that you have to buy. They are not starving by any meens. Right???????



Really put a fence up that is my point.Cost that is a priority I think