Dog training survey

[wwbirds]

My son has returned from Australia and believes my dog training program is out of date with working one on one with clients and phone calls or Pm's for assistance for problem solving or behavior modification.

He feels step by step videos that train the trainer to train and handle their own dogs for a small fee and telephone support is the way of the future.

What topics do you feel should be covered in various videos to be used on demand by subscription. I have my own ideas based on what I have been asked over the years to help with but would appreciate any other input by message here or by PM if you prefer.

My initial thoughts are to start with basic training applicable to both pets and hunting dogs and branch out under separate areas for flushing dogs and pointers for any degree of commitment the owner prefers such as hunting or as in depth as competitive field trials.

[Faststeel]

when it comes to dog training, people for the most part are using you because you came well recommended, from a friend who used your services. If business is not good then make some changes, if business is good then keep up the good work.....FS

[Pixel Shooter]

As i always say the easiest part of training is training the a dog, the owner not so much. I think there will always be a place to drop a dog off and have pup trained to expectations. challenge is having owner when taking dog home to uphold the standards of what was taught so wheels don't come off.

I have learned as well is there is a decent market for selling started dogs, I went thru this spring and dog was sold by word of mouth before I even got going just thru word of mouth. Peoples lives are busy, some dont enjoy puppy stage or want a dog ready for the upcoming season etc.

there is a market for one on one training, every week people come on specifically to train their dog, do a new lesson and practice for week, come back reconfirm home work was done and onto new lesson. a ton cheaper then sending to pro and biggest advantage is you learn along the way and specifically dealing with your pup not a group

in todays technology and amount of training material out there in video, stream on demand, there is great resources for those that wish to try to do themselves. Freddie King comes to mind, easy to understand, cheap annual fee and have access to dog videos from start to finish of training and online or email support when you have problems. you have smart works, hillmann, lardy, farmer lists goes on. great dvd resources, albeit not cheap, small market

biggest challenges in retriever training is there is yet a video out there that really helps you understand pressure, when to give pressure, amount of pressure, when giving the pressure, timing, timing, timing so thats an opportunity. water force not much material, swim by is another classic example where material has not done a good job. Creating concepts, i can make a 50 yard mark way harder in many examples then a 150 yard mark. teach factors, not sure many do a good job. the whole retriever training program is around teaching a dog how to release pressure, teaching direct and indirect pressure. what does it mean training thru attrition. man i could go on.

not sure if that is what looking for but not totally convinced , but production isnt cheap, you have a small market nieche, and how will you market?

[elkhunter11]

So exactly how did your son come to the conclusion that your training methods are outdated? Are the dogs no longer responding, or is it just a case of younger members of society wanting everything on line, with less personal contact?

[dbg498]

I think basic obedience, force fetch and collar conditioning videos would be helpful. I am having trouble with hold it and no that I haven't done a proper job of basic obedience. Once the dog gets to a well started dog level then help with teaching handling would be nice. If I could afford it sending the dog to a pro with one on one with the trainer after the pro works with the dog would be the prefered method. It would be naive to think that by watching a few videos most of us would be able to get the same results as someone that trains for a living.

[wwbirds]

I think it is more of the latter. He feels I am wasting time and energy by doing repetitive one on ones with clients and dogs sometimes on the same issues over and over again. He feels doing the lesson once preserved on video available on demand is far more efficient as it is only once I have to do it and it could be learned by many people over many years. The portion of that I agree with is that if I show a video of how to do it properly there would hopefully not be errors needing the same correction by multiple handlers.

Two areas that come to mind are repeating commands which basically conditions the dog to not respond until you get to a certain tone of voice. I describe this to many clients as asking the dog 3 or 4 times before insisting the dog obey the command. As soon as you start asking a dog to respond to commands without a control measure to lead them to the right decision you are teaching them that obedience is optional and they have a choice. Once you stop being the most important thing in their life (at 9 or 10 months) they discover all the other interesting smells sights and sounds the control issue becomes apparent.

I see this when a potential client brings a dog for assessment and state their obedience is pretty good we often find the dog only listens when it wants to.
Distractions can be more interesting.

[Iron Brew]

I think I'd start with a train the shooter style video. For example, I have hunted pheasants over labs. I enjoyed it and my lab was good at it. He didn't care much about ducks etc (yes, he retrieved them, but it was obviously not his love). He loved pheasant hunting. I have no idea how to hunt over a pointer. This isn't about the dog, it's about me. I don't know the etiquette well enough. This was brought home to me when I adopted a pointer. This wasn't an issue with the dog.

I would want to go out hunting over pointers with experienced hunters before I got another pointer, regardless of the dog's training. Videos explaining how the hunter behaves may be valuable.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by wwbirds

I think it is more of the latter. He feels I am wasting time and energy by doing repetitive one on ones with clients and dogs sometimes on the same issues over and over again. He feels doing the lesson once preserved on video available on demand is far more efficient as it is only once I have to do it and it could be learned by many people over many years. The portion of that I agree with is that if I show a video of how to do it properly there would hopefully not be errors needing the same correction by multiple handlers.

Two areas that come to mind are repeating commands which basically conditions the dog to not respond until you get to a certain tone of voice. I describe this to many clients as asking the dog 3 or 4 times before insisting the dog obey the command. As soon as you start asking a dog to respond to commands without a control measure to lead them to the right decision you are teaching them that obedience is optional and they have a choice. Once you stop being the most important thing in their life (at 9 or 10 months) they discover all the other interesting smells sights and sounds the control issue becomes apparent.

I see this when a potential client brings a dog for assessment and state their obedience is pretty good we often find the dog only listens when it wants to.
Distractions can be more interesting.

Do you get paid each time you do a one on one? Is the client happy to pay you each time? Then you aren't wasting your time. When a tradesman mentors an apprentice, most of it is done one one one, you don't give the apprentice a video to learn from. And learning to train a dog isn't all that different from learning a trade, it takes time, and hands on works better than a video.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Do you get paid each time you do a one on one? Is the client happy to pay you each time? Then you aren't wasting your time. When a tradesman mentors an apprentice, most of it is done one one one, you don't give the apprentice a video to learn from. And learning to train a dog isn't all that different from learning a trade, it takes time, and hands on works better than a video.

This

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[wwbirds]

No additional charges for consultation or hands on and I actual encourage it for locals twice a week. Training the handler and yes there is a learning curve perhaps information overload but the fact remains many people have no idea what these dogs are capable of so often have very minimal demands from the dog.
Guess current example is a 1 year old brought for refresher a week or so ago on live birds. Dog was in habit of chasing bird as soon as flushed because client had never insisted on stay or sit to flush. Once I explained the danger of a dog chasing a flushed bird as well as the practical side that a running dog cannot usually mark the fall as well as a stationary dog it all fell into place for him and he regretted not training it when dog was a pup. He just didnt know better. I also said if he was hunting with me he would only call his dogs name when it was his turn to retrieve so often we trained "no birds" or honors so only 1 dog left the handler group side for a retrieve.
I would cover stuff like this in the "head start" so handlers perhaps have higher expectations of young dogs. In field trials we joked that by the time you know what your puppy is expected to do in puppy stake he is junior and by the time you understand what is required in junior he is in qualifying if this is your first time training a hunting dog. Call it a lesson plan if you like by outlining what to expect of dog and why you train the puppy on skills while they are eager to learn and receptive for difficult tasks they may not require for a year of two into advanced training. We start training sit for example on retrievers at 8 weeks in the quick start program and introduce remote whistle sits at 4 months. My last pup was doing remote sits and handling in the field when she was 8 months old. Neither of those skills (honor or handling) are required in trials until 2 or 3 years but it sure is nice to have it ingrained before a year.

[32-40win]

I found some trainers that showed dogs doing things, then pointed out what the original mistake was, how to avoid it in the first place, and how to fix that, were helpful as all getout. Many trainers just say do this, do that to train a dog initially, but, don't go into the details and results of recognizing minor mistakes and how to avoid them, how to correct them. You wind up looking at it and asking yourself, what caused that, what do I need to accomplish, to out think the dog, to change his thought process and make him think it's his own idea, so it sticks. Very often it is something simple, but, we over think it.

[pdog15]

Back in the day, I instructed a few basic obedience classes with the objective of covering everything needed to pass Level 1 CKC obedience. (Once a week for 10 to twelve weeks). Each week there were new learnings and the idea was to practice these during the week. Having taken the course, it then depended on the progress of both dog and handler as to when/if the CKC test is done. Yes, it was as much about training the owners as it was about training the dogs. Until the handler learns/exudes/get comfortable using the degree of assertiveness necessary to get and keep the dog’s attention, the dog doesn’t progress very well. The same thing holds in terms of rewards, corrections, and proper use of equipment. A good video would be helpful in getting started to train a dog but there are so many subtleties involved that a video doesn’t cover. Much of this has to be developed with constant/guided practice/reinforcement over time, and it is much more fun/effectively done in a group such as NAVDA, imo. I think I can see where one on one training of both dog and handler by a pro would be/should be a very expensive way to go for a person wanting to train their own dog. I don’t see sending a dog out for training and the returning it to in untrained owner being very effective at all.

[newdrenalin]

I would be interested in the idea of going for a one on one once a week and going home to do the homework. Is this something you do ? I have a 6 month old pointing lab.

[Grizzly Adams]

No different than horse trainers, they're a hero one day and scum of the earth the next. The important part is what works for you and the animal you're training. A lot of fads come along and disappear with time. "Klicker" training comes to mind.

Grizz

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Iron Brew

I think I'd start with a train the shooter style video. For example, I have hunted pheasants over labs. I enjoyed it and my lab was good at it. He didn't care much about ducks etc (yes, he retrieved them, but it was obviously not his love). He loved pheasant hunting. I have no idea how to hunt over a pointer. This isn't about the dog, it's about me. I don't know the etiquette well enough. This was brought home to me when I adopted a pointer. This wasn't an issue with the dog.

I would want to go out hunting over pointers with experienced hunters before I got another pointer, regardless of the dog's training. Videos explaining how the hunter behaves may be valuable.

The first lesson I learned about hunting dogs, was that the handler needs to learn as much as the dog. As far as actually hunting over pointers, it's mostly about positioning yourself, so that you will get a safe shot when the bird flushes. I learned a lot about this hunting over friends dogs, but shooting for the local NAVHDA chapter for a few years was an asset. Learning your dogs behavior around birds really helps to anticipate how close the bird is, and whether it is stationary or moving, which helps to plan out how to cut off a running bird, and set up a safe shot. I am not a strong dog trainer myself, but I am able to hunt my dog very effectively.

[EZM]

I think this was mentioned in this thread a few times - the hardest thing to train is the dog's owner, just like it's hardest to train, for example, a kid's soccer team to follow disciplined play and listen to the coach and not to listen to the parents from the sidelines.

This dynamic is demonstrated and proven at home with our own dogs.

My wife and daughter will say that "the dogs listen to you much better" .........true .......... but that's not the root cause.

The dogs know exactly what is expected, understand the commands, and will listen and comply to instruction because I'm deliberate.

With the ladies they choose to run off distracted by something if they feel like it, need repetitive orders (more like requests) when they need to be in place and behaving.

Just like the strict teacher in school and the one that let's the kids misbehave.

A trainer, like yourself, understands this, and it may be more about training the master than it is about training the dog. Dogs are smart, they can and will learn to comply and respond as you would want them to.

Trainers are invaluable. Just like qualified coaches in any sports. They know how to teach and train but also know how to maintain discipline for good results.

The trainer gives the dogs the basic knowledge and teaches them how to respond - the second phase of the training should focus on the dog's owner in my opinion.

Videos may never do that.

[Sundog57]

You're taking on a very tough market if you are looking to get into the on-line or video training side of things.
I don't know much about pointy dogs, but in the retriever side of the game you're up against the likes of Mike Lardy, Bill Hillman, Dennis Voight, Kevin Cheff and lots of others.

As mentioned previously - the dogs are the easy part
I have spent lots of time at club events trying to help people handle their dogs.
Typically you show something once, then again, then the next time you see them they are back to doing what they were doing before.
If you can figure out how to train the trainers you will have something serious to sell.
Changing the mind set of dog owners is tough.

Two very experienced pro trainers made two comments that have stuck with me.
1. The dog is with you, you are not with the dog
2. (Following "what the H did you do that for?) If you give an imprecise command, you will get an imprecise response.

[KinAlberta]

We went to a guaranteed retrieve training course with a couple of our dogs. I don’t think we’d do it again. Pinch tactics and all.

[wwbirds]

Call me old fashioned but I had serious doubts that a video could replace hands on training. As has been mentioned a pure puppy has not learned any errors but the humans are a lot harder to train. l recently had an owner here complaining the dog did not listen but would I train it for a month and would everything be better after that month. I said no it took the dog 8 months to learn that obedience was optional so I could not reasonably promise him I could fix all the mistakes in one month so I would be sending him and the dog home with 6 months of "homework" with a check cord and instructions to leave it on until he thought the dog was working and listening perfectly and then leave it on for another 6 months to be sure. He hasn't come back so I think a lot of owners want instant fixes that aren't really available.

[Rancid Crabtree]

I agree a video can’t replace a mentor type lessons but it might be beneficial in laying out the ABC’s for a new person and allow the lesson time to be more effective.
In training herding dogs I found in the early stages it was hard to know what was acceptable and what wasn’t from a young dog. While the new handler is deciding if that was ok or not the dog continued working, so corrections are often so late the dog isn’t sure what he’s being corrected for.
So I think a video lesson could save time by introducing the foundation before you start lessons.
The more advanced trainers have better timing often correcting the dog as he makes the wrong decision, making the correction very effective. And that level of skill only comes with experience and good instruction.

One thing- a video of a pro trainer handling a gifted pup who has been raised right is sometimes not helpful for a beginner with a average dog. I like the videos where a pro shows a dog messing up and how he will work on it.

[wwbirds]

"pinch tactics" not sure what you are referring to but it does sound like pressure or force fetch made you uncomfortable which is an extension of escape avoidance training.
Escape avoidance training is generally accepted to be the most effective of the positive reinforcement training methods.
Some of us learned it from Tritronics at a seminar in California I think in 1984 or 1985?
Up until then mostly punishment training was used so if dog made a mistake you used a method of physically punishing them which is negative. Now don't get me wrong I am sure some people who think they know force fetch are probably using a pinch or even a collar to punish the dog for mistakes but causing discomfort with a pinch or mild electrical stimulation that motivates the dog to obey quickly is harmless while punishment can cause negative consequences including loss of spirit and having to use harsher punishment as the dog learns to tolerate it better.
Rancid I think many of the good trainers anticipate the dogs error before it happens rather than react with good timing. I trained with Bach Doar for a summer and if he thought the lab was going to break he would just raise his left toe to indicate to the dog a break was going to have serious consequences. The not knowing what or how to train in the first 2 years sets many people so far behind in the learning curve that the dog is permanently disadvantaged from getting to their full potential.

[Rancid Crabtree]

wwbirds I agree I’ve often seen the top dog and horse trainers anticipate the wrong decision and head it off.

I don’t know if that type off skill can be taught on a video, probably requires experience and skilled guidance.
I see videos as good to teach basic concepts.