Finding the Accurate Load

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by HW223

wouldn’t it be better to fix the fire control issues with your rifle and then see where the best accuracy is with out having premature primer pressure issues?
Again I can not speak for the long range methods , some one from that discipline would have to Comment , but I can tell you that for short range your methods are counter productive to the best accuracy.i don’t see a group in your posts that would make any short range competitor well prepared for anything except an epic beating ,and that is bad for the sport

Originally Posted by HW223

That is exactly what you don’t want to see , the primer is still round at the outer diameter , but is cratering , this is not a good situation and should be corrected , when it’s right the primer will “ flow “ into the outer radius with and indent in the middle from the pin and zero flow at the pin ,

That is the same advice you gave Rem 260 about his Batt action that actually has no problems just as my rifle doesn't. You would have him running off to a gunsmith when all he really has to do is ignore the situation which is actually caused by a low pressure load that showed differently on the primer and did not fire form his FL sized brass. Adding more powder to bring the pressures up would have his primer looking like the load shot with what is obviously a hotter load and would eliminate the primer protrusion as it would likely fire form the brass. You would have me do the same even when I explained to you that the excessive primer protrusion, in the last example shown, destroyed the primer pockets and the brass was showing that the load was on the verge of blowing the primer. You can perhaps get more pressure with a custom action and certain cartridges without the primer showing these pressure signs but eventually the primer pockets will give out. Would it not be better to find a "good safe load', like the first three brass I pictured that are more than adequate for the job at hand?

"Primer flow is not necessarily a function of pressure,it is usually more related to mechanics of your particular bolt and chamber set up , pm me and I can explain , we run over 70,000 and have no measurable primer flow or signs of over pressure . All has to do with proper and exact fit of brass , dies and chamber "


Everything to do with firing a projectile from a firearm is related to pressure, even the pressure on the trigger. The trick is to learn to read how various components change this pressure or react to pressure and that everything we do to tune a load results in a change in pressure or the way our firearm reacts to it.

In stead of making observations that you know very little about, in an attempt to discredit me, I suggest that you open your mind and listen and learn. I know Don is doing that and that many others are learning a lot as well and likely have a lot to contribute to this thread.

I could have ridiculed you for your grammar or spelling mistake, as other did Don, but perhaps my "week load" as you put it was correct. Like any "Good Load' it shoots accurately and safely in any rifle built to the same specs, any day of the week and does the job intended. I do not need to put people down to make myself feel important or better than others as some do.

[260 Rem]

After exchanging a couple of PM’s with HW223, I determined it was the multi-times fired brass that was causing the cratering of my primers. Some of the reloads on that lot of brass had been pretty “warm” which likely contributed to the issue. I don’t pretend to understand all the mechanics but the cratering did not reoccur when I switched the same load over to a different lot of brass with less than half the miles on it. As a quick check to rule out a weak firing pin spring, or excess pin hole diameter, I shot the “problem” brass in another action/barrel that had been chambered with the same reamer ... and got similar cratering.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

After exchanging a couple of PM’s with HW223, I determined it was the multi-times fired brass that was causing the cratering of my primers. Some of the reloads on that lot of brass had been pretty “warm” which likely contributed to the issue. I don’t pretend to understand all the mechanics but the cratering did not reoccur when I switched the same load over to a different lot of brass with less than half the miles on it. As a quick check to rule out a weak firing pin spring, or excess pin hole diameter, I shot the “problem” brass in another action/barrel that had been chambered with the same reamer ... and got similar cratering.

Was the newer brass FL sized with excessive HS like the problem brass? This difference could contribute to the cratering you saw, as could a deeper seated primer, as it would likely not slam back on the bolt face as hard as with a fire formed brass. Running enough pressure to fire form the brass would likely see the primer flatten normally. I gather you did not try that? In any event you do not have a problem with your firing pin or bolt face as initially suspected.

[260 Rem]

None of the brass is likely to have excessive HS. Everything in both lots is the same except for the number of reloads. I have plenty of experience with the 6 Dasher (think I have about 6 barrels chambered with my reamer). Also pretty confident the load is not low pressure or it would not drive the 95 gr close to 3000fps from a 23" barrel). With 105's and the same volume of powder I get about 2975 fps from a 25" barrel. When I load the Dasher with a 105/33.0 gr combination and get velocities approaching those of 243 Win ...with 10 grs less powder ... which can only be done with a lot of pressure.
Now, if one was looking for a top notch varmint rig, the Dasher kicks butt. I think it (and it's variants) still dominate 600yard International BR Shooters competition. Even their 1000 yard completion is likely to have a greater number of this "improved" cartridge than any other show up in the top 20.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

None of the brass is likely to have excessive HS. Everything in both lots is the same except for the number of reloads. I have plenty of experience with the 6 Dasher (think I have about 6 barrels chambered with my reamer). Also pretty confident the load is not low pressure or it would not drive the 95 gr close to 3000fps from a 23" barrel). With 105's and the same volume of powder I get about 2975 fps from a 25" barrel. When I load the Dasher with a 105/33.0 gr combination and get velocities approaching those of 243 Win ...with 10 grs less powder ... which can only be done with a lot of pressure.
Now, if one was looking for a top notch varmint rig, the Dasher kicks butt. I think it (and it's variants) still dominate 600yard International BR Shooters competition. Even their 1000 yard completion is likely to have a greater number of this "improved" cartridge than any other show up in the top 20.

I am just trying to get to the bottom of why the brass made a difference. The brass you pictured in the calipers has Excessive HS. In another post you said that some of this brass had been fired warm and I have had extensive experience with measuring brass that have been fired with different pressures. FL dies have to be set to compensate for the uneven spring back at the shoulder datum where HS is measured and cannot be assumed in this case.

Also the Hodgdon Manual shows 90 & 100 grain loads running to 3229 fps and 3088 fps respectively. in a 30" barrel. Pressures run at about 52,000 Cup, which is like a 7mm-08, with a powder of similar burn rate to your 95 grain Berger which is likely running less pressure than that at 2975. I never said that your load was running low pressure, just not high enough pressure to fire form the brass and slam the primer against the bolt face and flatten it as in your other brass.

Like my 20 EXTREME which gets velocities approaching the 204R, with an equivalent % less powder (4-6grains), the 6 Dasher is a very well balanced cartridge design. I believe that they are much easier to find Good Loads for as well. The only difference is that I Improved it by actually making a 222R case smaller and forming the shoulder with my dies. This eliminates fire forming and brass is always formed the same after firing.

I have known about the 6 Dasher practically since its introduction and know that the boys down in Montana kicked ass in 1000 BR. However as a 500 yard varmint gun I would pick the 20 EXTREME due to its lower muzzle velocity and powder consumption. As far as wind age and elevation they are very similar to that range. At longer range the 6 Dasher would be the winner.

[260 Rem]

What I know is that changing brass solved the problem and although I would like to understand “the why”, I am moving on with fresher brass.

[6.5x47 lapua]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

What I know is that changing brass solved the problem and although I would like to understand “the why”, I am moving on with fresher brass.

We have the same problems with the 308 Palma brass.you learn when to throw it out real quick.i have a pretty good idea why this happens but I’ll keep my theory out of this forum for obvious reasons.

[HW223]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

That is the same advice you gave Rem 260 about his Batt action that actually has no problems just as my rifle doesn't. You would have him running off to a gunsmith when all he really has to do is ignore the situation which is actually caused by a low pressure load that showed differently on the primer and did not fire form his FL sized brass. Adding more powder to bring the pressures up would have his primer looking like the load shot with what is obviously a hotter load and would eliminate the primer protrusion as it would likely fire form the brass. You would have me do the same even when I explained to you that the excessive primer protrusion, in the last example shown, destroyed the primer pockets and the brass was showing that the load was on the verge of blowing the primer. You can perhaps get more pressure with a custom action and certain cartridges without the primer showing these pressure signs but eventually the primer pockets will give out. Would it not be better to find a "good safe load', like the first three brass I pictured that are more than adequate for the job at hand?

"Primer flow is not necessarily a function of pressure,it is usually more related to mechanics of your particular bolt and chamber set up , pm me and I can explain , we run over 70,000 and have no measurable primer flow or signs of over pressure . All has to do with proper and exact fit of brass , dies and chamber "


Everything to do with firing a projectile from a firearm is related to pressure, even the pressure on the trigger. The trick is to learn to read how various components change this pressure or react to pressure and that everything we do to tune a load results in a change in pressure or the way our firearm reacts to it.

In stead of making observations that you know very little about, in an attempt to discredit me, I suggest that you open your mind and listen and learn. I know Don is doing that and that many others are learning a lot as well and likely have a lot to contribute to this thread.

I could have ridiculed you for your grammar or spelling mistake, as other did Don, but perhaps my "week load" as you put it was correct. Like any "Good Load' it shoots accurately and safely in any rifle built to the same specs, any day of the week and does the job intended. I do not need to put people down to make myself feel important or better than others as some do.

Read the part you highlighted in red over and over again until it sinks in ,if it doesn’t then continue on your merry way,
Easy to run your mouth on the internet , show up at a competition and see how your theories pan out

[HW223]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

What I know is that changing brass solved the problem and although I would like to understand “the why”, I am moving on with fresher brass.

Pm me if you like 260 , I may be able to give you some insight on what possibly caused the problem if your interested

[Don_Parsons]

Yes,,, the idea of finding a accurate load for a firearm comes in many forums.

I'm only guessing what works for 100m's might not work at a 1000m, purhaps the 1000 is not suited for the 2 mile.
Kind of a crap shot if the 2 mile will work for the 3 mile.

Guess we won't know till those Russian pull it off.
They are pushing the envelope just past the 2 1/2 mile,,, 2.68 mile if I recall in Northern Russia.

Maybe the day will come when us humans push the 5 mile limits,,, my long time friend just retired from the 5 to 8 Mile category.
Land based Canons with the Canadian Armed Forces.

That topic could be for another thread.

I just came across this world record shot group when I was looking for another that was set back a few years ago.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...ory-be-amazed/

And this was the one I was looking for in this play model of discovery.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...ve-shot-group/

So what might these two world record firearm groups have to do with creating a accurate load one might ask.

Simple,,, both of these fellows are master reloaders with years of it above their belt lines.
There were a few folks on another forum that thought the 100 yard group should not be included in the conversation since it was not shot at long range.

This is true,,, but is there anyone out there today that can at least match this group with a small short little rifle that pulled it off.

Mike Stinnett did not just get out of bed one day and say to his friends and family,,, " today I'm going down to the range to shoot a world record group at 100 yards today.

It didn't play out this way in his case.
Mike is a long range BR fellow with 30 to 40 years of +++ reloading skills under his belt.
The brass he used for this world record group had some where between 14 to 20 reloads on it.
Mike wanted to make sure the brass was fully fire formed to the chamber of the rifle.

It was a few months ago that I used the world wide web to review Mike Stinnett to learn about him and how he pulled this off.

I found this saying from a different discussion.

If someone comes up with a good model for something, some people wish it didn't not exist because they could make it better.
The other folks with wizer ideas and plans welcome the achievement of what this model represents,,, so they take from it and make it better.

Ideas and thoughts are always up for debate, and there is nothing wrong with this.

The question folks ask "in most cases," is if something does not jive with the system of and idea,,, then why not post a write up explaining what's missing or could be improved on instead of not sharing.
I can see the down fall in this.

At one time it stumped me putting up posts, then I got to the point of care. "Care Less." as I'm doing my own thing.

This is where discovery comes to me. Yes I have to read between the lines of what I post along with what others put out there. This is a given in life.

How else do we find the middle grounds when we haven't looked at the far left or right.
Yes that some might not fit our design or way of doing things,,, that's to be expected in model building is it not.

The old saying from long ago still applies today.
There are many ways to skin a cat, if the end result produces skinned cats,,, then the process is working out.
Yes that some ways are faster, better, wizer, and so on,,, but how do we know this until we see what is out there.

Sorry for the long post, but hey, at least we have 2 world record groups to view.
I'm guessing it might have something to do with accurate loads and other factors.

All good, all relevant.

Don

[HW223]

I agree , how ever if Mike Had not shot that group at a sanctioned compitition ,most Poeple outside of Benchrest would not even know who he is. In any sport every one looks to the consistant winners to see how it’s done. Their are many tinkerers and this is a good thing it’s how we find new ideas , but at some point you have to prove it out against all the other theories to see if it holds up or needs to be modified or abandoned and move forward .
So far I have not seen short range and long range interchange . Typically what works at 1000 does not work at 100-300 and vice versa.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by Don_Parsons

Yes,,, the idea of finding a accurate load for a firearm comes in many forums.

I'm only guessing what works for 100m's might not work at a 1000m, purhaps the 1000 is not suited for the 2 mile.
Kind of a crap shot if the 2 mile will work for the 3 mile.

Guess we won't know till those Russian pull it off.
They are pushing the envelope just past the 2 1/2 mile,,, 2.68 mile if I recall in Northern Russia.

Maybe the day will come when us humans push the 5 mile limits,,, my long time friend just retired from the 5 to 8 Mile category.
Land based Canons with the Canadian Armed Forces.

That topic could be for another thread.

I just came across this world record shot group when I was looking for another that was set back a few years ago.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...ory-be-amazed/

And this was the one I was looking for in this play model of discovery.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...ve-shot-group/

So what might these two world record firearm groups have to do with creating a accurate load one might ask.

Simple,,, both of these fellows are master reloaders with years of it above their belt lines.
There were a few folks on another forum that thought the 100 yard group should not be included in the conversation since it was not shot at long range.

This is true,,, but is there anyone out there today that can at least match this group with a small short little rifle that pulled it off.

Mike Stinnett did not just get out of bed one day and say to his friends and family,,, " today I'm going down to the range to shoot a world record group at 100 yards today.

It didn't play out this way in his case.
Mike is a long range BR fellow with 30 to 40 years of +++ reloading skills under his belt.
The brass he used for this world record group had some where between 14 to 20 reloads on it.
Mike wanted to make sure the brass was fully fire formed to the chamber of the rifle.

It was a few months ago that I used the world wide web to review Mike Stinnett to learn about him and how he pulled this off.

I found this saying from a different discussion.

If someone comes up with a good model for something, some people wish it didn't not exist because they could make it better.
The other folks with wizer ideas and plans welcome the achievement of what this model represents,,, so they take from it and make it better.

Ideas and thoughts are always up for debate, and there is nothing wrong with this.

The question folks ask "in most cases," is if something does not jive with the system of and idea,,, then why not post a write up explaining what's missing or could be improved on instead of not sharing.
I can see the down fall in this.

At one time it stumped me putting up posts, then I got to the point of care. "Care Less." as I'm doing my own thing.

This is where discovery comes to me. Yes I have to read between the lines of what I post along with what others put out there. This is a given in life.

How else do we find the middle grounds when we haven't looked at the far left or right.
Yes that some might not fit our design or way of doing things,,, that's to be expected in model building is it not.

The old saying from long ago still applies today.
There are many ways to skin a cat, if the end result produces skinned cats,,, then the process is working out.
Yes that some ways are faster, better, wizer, and so on,,, but how do we know this until we see what is out there.

Sorry for the long post, but hey, at least we have 2 world record groups to view.
I'm guessing it might have something to do with accurate loads and other factors.

All good, all relevant.

Don

I appreciate the wisdom of what you are saying Don and hope that others read and re-read until they grasp the meaning of what you said about discovery and finding the middle ground by looking left and right. Many are so blinded by their own ego and narrow minded thinking that they would rather put down ideas, or people, that they don't understand. I see your spelling and grammar seem much improved and was wondering if you just typed slower or discovered a way to use spell check.

The link to the record set in Deep Creek Montana was interesting as Tom Mousel was the ringleader of the "Boys from Montana" that I mentioned to 260Rem. See this link to an article back in 2010 when they first notice of the 6-Dasher. It does not give any information about how tom Mousel developed the loads but it does show how he treated his brass and how important adjusting the length to the lands is in fine tuning. Like everything else we do to fine tune our loads this changes pressures and perhaps more importantly may influence the pressure curve. A close read will give you some insite into a factor perhaps more important than the accuracy of the 6-Dasher. Tom Mousel was able to get all 10 shots off in 25 seconds which likely gave him a huge advantage, in the wind, over heavier recoiling 1000 yard rifles. You see it is not always the most accurate load, or even rifle for that matter, that wins a match. This is something that some people tend to believe that no one knows unless they shoot in competition. http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...soula-montana/

Thanks for pointing this out in the article about the 100 yard BR record. "The brass he used for this world record group had some where between 14 to 20 reloads on it.
Mike wanted to make sure the brass was fully fire formed to the chamber of the rifle."


Perhaps 260Rem will take my advice and check his brass out, as I suggested, rather than throwing it out as it will likely last many more years shooting his "good" deer load. If not that is OK too as it makes no difference to me if he ever figures out the "WHY". I guess if I was a Short Range BR shooter, or Long Range shooter and had won a match or two then I would someone to listen to. However I am just a lowly tinker and even if I posted a group like that I would not be taken seriously as I didn't do it in a sanctioned match. I will never completely understand that mentality and it is likely why I am not that impressed with "Competition" period.

Thanks again and I will be posting more about the using the "pressure ladder" as a starting point to finding a "GOOD LOADS", not just "A Good Load" or a "SAFE IN MY Rifle LOAD". Although a chronograph is not necessary to find the pressure spikes and nodes, it does help if you are not able to put in tight groups with your equipment. I developed this method long before the MagnetoSpeed came along and can assure you that the article on the 10 Shot Ladder Test is not completely accurate as there are many instances where max pressure is reached long before a particular powder reaches the same velocity, as another, with the same bullet.

[Jay Kyle]

Hmm! This thread really grew some legs! Well Don, nothing like drinking from the firehose. You can lost in a hurry in the minutia but take a step back and really get your head around what it takes to be consistent at distance.

A well know ballistician - Bryan Lytz - spoke to a concept called 'Weapons Employment Zone' essentially understanding which of the many variables in your weapons system are important to work on and which are less important.

Cal Zant - an avid engineer and shooter took the concept and did a thorough study on it. His article at Precision Rifle Blog brought to light that some of the sacred cows we hold dear turn out to not matter so much in the big scheme of things.

For example he found that tightening your groups from 0.8 MOA down to 0.3 MOA only improved your likelihood of hitting a 20" group at 1000 yards by 4%.

Do read both the summary and detail articles - they are an eye opener.

I know in my own experience from dropping lead at 2k he's bang on.

Jay
---------------
338 Edge
338-378 Weatherby

[markg]

Originally Posted by Jay Kyle

Hmm! This thread really grew some legs! Well Don, nothing like drinking from the firehose. You can lost in a hurry in the minutia but take a step back and really get your head around what it takes to be consistent at distance.

A well know ballistician - Bryan Lytz - spoke to a concept called 'Weapons Employment Zone' essentially understanding which of the many variables in your weapons system are important to work on and which are less important.

Cal Zant - an avid engineer and shooter took the concept and did a thorough study on it. His article at Precision Rifle Blog brought to light that some of the sacred cows we hold dear turn out to not matter so much in the big scheme of things.

For example he found that tightening your groups from 0.8 MOA down to 0.3 MOA only improved your likelihood of hitting a 20" group at 1000 yards by 4%.

Do read both the summary and detail articles - they are an eye opener.

I know in my own experience from dropping lead at 2k he's bang on.

Jay
---------------
338 Edge
338-378 Weatherby

I was looking for this article on thier site but couldnt find it. Thanks for sharing. There is some great stuff on this article.

[markg]

Looks like the 3 most important things are controlable; Cartridge, exact placement of the gong at a known distance, and using a kestrel to have an exact wind reading.

The one variable I am not sure how to exactly control is target distance. Do you guys use a construction tape to set out your exact distance from shooting position to target? Thats what I am thinking of doing. I dont think I can get a reading on my range finder out to 1000m and my range finder does not adjust for elevation changes.

Suggestions?

[260 Rem]

Iclund ... It is good to exchange ideas / experience and this forum is fortunate to have some experienced folks like yourself. What some might not know is that a couple of contributors in this thread do well in competition...one an F-class shooter, and another SBR (who just did very well at the Worlds in NZ).

[duceman]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Iclund ... It is good to exchange ideas / experience and this forum is fortunate to have some experienced folks like yourself. What some might not know is that a couple of contributors in this thread do well in competition...one an F-class shooter, and another SBR (who just did very well at the Worlds in NZ).

good point 260, both of these are at the pinnacle of their disciplines, competed against the best in the world, and done extremely well.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

Many are so blinded by their own ego and narrow minded thinking that they would rather put down ideas, or people, that they don't understand.

Words of wisdom. Perhaps you could learn something from them.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

Words of wisdom. Perhaps you could learn something from them.

I understand guys like HW223 and am pleased that he did well in a recent SR BR competition. However winning a BR competition obviously does not make him an expert on how to read pressure signs on primers. What he describes as "Fire Control Problems" may be true in a 6mmPPC BR Competition rifle but what I posted is a safe to serious pressure problem, as determined by primer flow, in virtually any factory action chambered in a 222/223 Saami or wildcat cartridge. As I tried to explain to him the last case shown was actually destroyed by the tremendous over pressure load even though the CCI 450 primer had not pierced. When I see a CCI 450 Primer starting to flow into the firing pin hole in a 223/222/204R case on a, CZ 527 /Savage/Sako or Remington action, I know that pressures are likely past 60000PSI and that
case head expansion is imminent. I also know that primers will blow when case head, or primer pocket, expansion exceeds 0.005", and that sticky bolt is not necessarily apparent.

Of course HW223 was not able to "see that problem" as he is likely not aware of what he was seeing. But when I explain the situation and he "still prefers to not see the problem", then I have a problem as he is dismissing a very serious issue that I have tried to explain. I would imagine that the vast majority of varmint hunters out there are using the same components as I and I would sure hate to have some of them injured due to ignorance, or stupidity. I would rather they learn how to "'Develop A Good" and preferably "SAFE" Load which was what I thought this thread was about.

It is plain that you have nothing of value to add.

[elkhunter11]

[

good point 260, both of these are at the pinnacle of their disciplines, competed against the best in the world, and done extremely well.

Which I see as having at least done something to prove their load development capabilities. I put more credibility in their accomplishments , than I do in someone that only offers theories and drawings.

Originally Posted by Bushrat

Words of wisdom. Perhaps you could learn something from them.

No kidding!

[Jay Kyle]

Sorry guys - I'll own the criticism - my intent was to never belittle anyone - perhaps it's just my bad writing style. My dad always said no matter who you are there's someone better than you and I know there are many many shooters out there much better than me. Life's much too short for stress, I'd just rather make a lunch and go enjoy some shooting.

Jay

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by Jay Kyle

Sorry guys - I'll own the criticism - my intent was to never belittle anyone - perhaps it's just my bad writing style. My dad always said no matter who you are there's someone better than you and I know there are many many shooters out there much better than me. Life's much too short for stress, I'd just rather make a lunch and go enjoy some shooting.

Jay

I enjoyed your post as it was very informative. You have nothing to be sorry about and the criticism was aimed at me as it has been for many years , mostly by a few who are always joined by the last poster. No amount of reason seems to penetrate closed minds and they seem to be envious of the fact that I have accomplished something that they will never likely be capable of.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

I understand guys like HW223 and am pleased that he did well in a recent SR BR competition. However winning a BR competition obviously does not make him an expert on how to read pressure signs on primers. What he describes as "Fire Control Problems" may be true in a 6mmPPC BR Competition rifle but what I posted is a safe to serious pressure problem, as determined by primer flow, in virtually any factory action chambered in a 222/223 Saami or wildcat cartridge. As I tried to explain to him the last case shown was actually destroyed by the tremendous over pressure load even though the CCI 450 primer had not pierced. When I see a CCI 450 Primer starting to flow into the firing pin hole in a 223/222/204R case on a, CZ 527 /Savage/Sako or Remington action, I know that pressures are likely past 60000PSI and that
case head expansion is imminent. I also know that primers will blow when case head, or primer pocket, expansion exceeds 0.005", and that sticky bolt is not necessarily apparent.

Of course HW223 was not able to "see that problem" as he is likely not aware of what he was seeing. But when I explain the situation and he "still prefers to not see the problem", then I have a problem as he is dismissing a very serious issue that I have tried to explain. I would imagine that the vast majority of varmint hunters out there are using the same components as I and I would sure hate to have some of them injured due to ignorance, or stupidity. I would rather they learn how to "'Develop A Good" and preferably "SAFE" Load which was what I thought this thread was about.

It is plain that you have nothing of value to add.

It is plain to see you are not willing to understand that there may be other mechanical, manufacturing and design defects at work here that may allow even a low pressure load to overcome the resistance of the primer cup and allow it to flow around the firing pin into a void between it and the bolt face that shouldn't be there especially in a custom action. Pressure tries to escape at the weakest point in the chamber bolt assembly pressure vessel that holds the brass and primer cup. Primer cups even the thickest and strongest will not contain any amount of pressure nor will brass if they are unsupported. When there is a void/space between the firing pin and the firing pin arpeture opening in the bolt face that shouldn't be there this commonly happens and it doesn't take over pressure loads to do it. Even loads that are not close to approaching SAMMI maximums will do it.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

It is plain to see you are not willing to understand that there may be other mechanical, manufacturing and design defects at work here that may allow even a low pressure load to overcome the resistance of the primer cup and allow it to flow around the firing pin into a void between it and the bolt face that shouldn't be there especially in a custom action. Pressure tries to escape at the weakest point in the chamber bolt assembly pressure vessel that holds the brass and primer cup. Primer cups even the thickest and strongest will not contain any amount of pressure nor will brass if they are unsupported. When there is a void/space between the firing pin and the firing pin arpeture opening in the bolt face that shouldn't be there this commonly happens and it doesn't take over pressure loads to do it. Even loads that are not close to approaching SAMMI maximums will do it.

He is simply not willing to consider any viewpoint that does not match his own, and accordingly, he seems to consider any opinion that doesn't agree with his as being nothing more than ignorance or stupidity.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

It is plain to see you are not willing to understand that there may be other mechanical, manufacturing and design defects at work here that may allow even a low pressure load to overcome the resistance of the primer cup and allow it to flow around the firing pin into a void between it and the bolt face that shouldn't be there especially in a custom action. Pressure tries to escape at the weakest point in the chamber bolt assembly pressure vessel that holds the brass and primer cup. Primer cups even the thickest and strongest will not contain any amount of pressure nor will brass if they are unsupported. When there is a void/space between the firing pin and the firing pin arpeture opening in the bolt face that shouldn't be there this commonly happens and it doesn't take over pressure loads to do it. Even loads that are not close to approaching SAMMI maximums will do it.

I really don't know why I waste my time other than the hope that others will learn. I fully understand the mechanical, manufacturing and design defects that could be at work here. You, among others, are not willing to understand that I was describing a situation where everything is working, as designed, to manufacturer and Saami tolerances. The Win/ Lapua 222 Bass is designed to operate to Saami 223 pressures of around 58,000 and will likely take over 60,000 before the web/primer pockets begin to yield. However as the Web/primer pocket area, on a bolt gun, are not supported by the chamber they will begin to expand until the primer is blown out of its pocket. This usually takes pressures in excess of 65,000, in this case, and Primer Pocket/Web expansion of about 0.007". In order for the bolt to become sticky, or seize, the chamber and brass both have to expand to the extent that the brass does not spring back as much as the chamber. In 222/223factory chambering's, as well as wildcats based on these cases, pressures do usually run in excess of 50,000 PSI so standard small rifle primers will usually pierce. The solution has been to run Rem 7 1/2, or other small rifle primers that are designed to run in excess of about 57,000, and if that don't work use CCI 450 Magnum Primers. Usually the extra pressure flows out toward the outer radius of the primer and the primer takes on a flat appearance. However before a Rem 7 1/2 or CCI 450 primer flattens completely the firing pin, on most factory designed actions, begins to yield and the primer begins flowing into the firing pin hole after slamming against the bolt face. In this instance the outer radius of the primer will still be rounded but primer flow, or protrusion past the bolt face can be as much as 0.007 to 0.010" before the primer pierces. However when pressures get this high the Web/Primer Pockets will have stretched by 0.005" -0.007" where the primer pockets are to loose and likely blown.

Comments like this from elkhunter11 are absolutely not true as I will accept any comment with an element of truth to it but not accept any that are pure BS and just twist around what I am saying.
"He is simply not willing to consider any viewpoint that does not match his own, and accordingly, he seems to consider any opinion that doesn't agree with his as being nothing more than ignorance or stupidity."
I had hoped that this individual had begun to learn something but I see it is possible that he never will. He apparently does not believe in, or understand Saami Specs, any more than he does my drawings. In any event I would hope that new hand loaders do not take his "Safe in My Rifle "approach to Load Development. I know that this approach and the "Load it up until the bolt seizes" method of finding maximum loads is advocated by some shooters, as well, but it is my hope that those methods are not condoned on this, or any other forum.

I am going to continue to try and help others to learn some of the safer ways of load development like the use of a pressure ladder to find Good safe Loads in spite of a few detractors.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

I really don't know why I waste my time other than the hope that others will learn. I fully understand the mechanical, manufacturing and design defects that could be at work here. You, among others, are not willing to understand that I was describing a situation where everything is working, as designed, to manufacturer and Saami tolerances. The Win/ Lapua 222 Bass is designed to operate to Saami 223 pressures of around 58,000 and will likely take over 60,000 before the web/primer pockets begin to yield. However as the Web/primer pocket area, on a bolt gun, are not supported by the chamber they will begin to expand until the primer is blown out of its pocket. This usually takes pressures in excess of 65,000, in this case, and Primer Pocket/Web expansion of about 0.007". In order for the bolt to become sticky, or seize, the chamber and brass both have to expand to the extent that the brass does not spring back as much as the chamber. In 222/223factory chambering's, as well as wildcats based on these cases, pressures do usually run in excess of 50,000 PSI so standard small rifle primers will usually pierce. The solution has been to run Rem 7 1/2, or other small rifle primers that are designed to run in excess of about 57,000, and if that don't work use CCI 450 Magnum Primers. Usually the extra pressure flows out toward the outer radius of the primer and the primer takes on a flat appearance. However before a Rem 7 1/2 or CCI 450 primer flattens completely the firing pin, on most factory designed actions, begins to yield and the primer begins flowing into the firing pin hole after slamming against the bolt face. In this instance the outer radius of the primer will still be rounded but primer flow, or protrusion past the bolt face can be as much as 0.007 to 0.010" before the primer pierces. However when pressures get this high the Web/Primer Pockets will have stretched by 0.005" -0.007" where the primer pockets are to loose and likely blown.

Comments like this from elkhunter11 are absolutely not true as I will accept any comment with an element of truth to it but not accept any that are pure BS and just twist around what I am saying.
"He is simply not willing to consider any viewpoint that does not match his own, and accordingly, he seems to consider any opinion that doesn't agree with his as being nothing more than ignorance or stupidity."
I had hoped that this individual had begun to learn something but I see it is possible that he never will. He apparently does not believe in, or understand Saami Specs, any more than he does my drawings. In any event I would hope that new hand loaders do not take his "Safe in My Rifle "approach to Load Development. I know that this approach and the "Load it up until the bolt seizes" method of finding maximum loads is advocated by some shooters, as well, but it is my hope that those methods are not condoned on this, or any other forum.

I am going to continue to try and help others to learn some of the safer ways of load development like the use of a pressure ladder to find Good safe Loads in spite of a few detractors.

I understand SAAMI just fine, but I also realize that not every manufacturer chambers and throats their firearms exactly to SAAMI specs, and their magazines often allow a COL much longer than the SAAMI standard. As for your nonsense as to my loading until the bolt seizes, it is just that nonsense. I measure case head expansion and measure velocity, and unlike you, I base my loads on actual results, not on calculations or SAAMI drawings, that only apply to theoretical rifles. I often load to a COL longer than the SAAMI standard, because my rifles are often throated longer than the SAAMI specs, and my magazines allow the longer COL. And when you post nonsense such as you did when you claimed that my COL couldn't fit into my magazine, I post pictures to prove that it will fit, even though you ignore my pictures and refer back to your SAAMI drawings that supposedly prove that it's not possible. But you continue right on with your drawings and theories, and your calculations , and live in your theoretical world, and I will continue living in a world based on real world results.

[Don_Parsons]

Originally Posted by markg

Looks like the 3 most important things are controlable; Cartridge, exact placement of the gong at a known distance, and using a kestrel to have an exact wind reading.

The one variable I am not sure how to exactly control is target distance. Do you guys use a construction tape to set out your exact distance from shooting position to target? Thats what I am thinking of doing. I dont think I can get a reading on my range finder out to 1000m and my range finder does not adjust for elevation changes.

Suggestions?

I measure my distances in the West country for clay bank target shooting.
Sometimes I launch 3 shots down range at a flat smooth clay face, then adjust from there to get onto the borders.

We went out West just before the season opened to free sight our distances.

Both of us can range free eye to 400m,s give or take, but that isn't going to happen since we harvest the thick of thick timbers.

My friend has his range finder as we free guess some distant objects,,, his range finder fills in the gaps.
All of my out West targets are 20",,, I did this since its about the size of a large Deer. If a Elk fits into the BDC lines, then I know it is 35m further away because of its girth size.

My BDC retrical scope allows me to range from MZ to 400m's,,, further if I wanted to. Girth size of Deer or Elk.

But I'm not a long distance harvester.
The thrill for me is close encounters of the furry kind.
Normally 40 to 140m.

But yes. Ive paced out my distances using a 100m small rope and reflective tape at each distance to the 1 km mark.
It's not that far.

Normally I clay bank shoot where I'm planing on Harvesting game

This gives me a chance to find tracks, pick land marks for ranging distance, and allows me to see things I some times over look.

Reflective tape works good.
I tie about 7 different colours together so it is easier to spot.
Even ribbons look black past the 700 to 800m mark.
Depends alot on where the sun is, clarity of optics and the power zoom of the scope.

Don.

Probably more wrong than right.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

I really don't know why I waste my time other than the hope that others will learn. I fully understand the mechanical, manufacturing and design defects that could be at work here. You, among others, are not willing to understand that I was describing a situation where everything is working, as designed, to manufacturer and Saami tolerances. The Win/ Lapua 222 Bass is designed to operate to Saami 223 pressures of around 58,000 and will likely take over 60,000 before the web/primer pockets begin to yield. However as the Web/primer pocket area, on a bolt gun, are not supported by the chamber they will begin to expand until the primer is blown out of its pocket. This usually takes pressures in excess of 65,000, in this case, and Primer Pocket/Web expansion of about 0.007". In order for the bolt to become sticky, or seize, the chamber and brass both have to expand to the extent that the brass does not spring back as much as the chamber. In 222/223factory chambering's, as well as wildcats based on these cases, pressures do usually run in excess of 50,000 PSI so standard small rifle primers will usually pierce. The solution has been to run Rem 7 1/2, or other small rifle primers that are designed to run in excess of about 57,000, and if that don't work use CCI 450 Magnum Primers. Usually the extra pressure flows out toward the outer radius of the primer and the primer takes on a flat appearance. However before a Rem 7 1/2 or CCI 450 primer flattens completely the firing pin, on most factory designed actions, begins to yield and the primer begins flowing into the firing pin hole after slamming against the bolt face. In this instance the outer radius of the primer will still be rounded but primer flow, or protrusion past the bolt face can be as much as 0.007 to 0.010" before the primer pierces. However when pressures get this high the Web/Primer Pockets will have stretched by 0.005" -0.007" where the primer pockets are to loose and likely blown.

How do you explain our SR benchrest loads with softer thinner federal primer cups not exhibiting these signs when 99% of SR benchrest shooters use loads that generate anywhere from 65,000 to 75,000+ psi far above SAAMI recommended book loads yet display none of these conventional signs of over pressure on brass, primer or present sticky bolt lift.

It is well known that judging pressure by brass appearance, primer appearance, bolt stickiness etc., is often akin to reading tea leaves. While it is an indicator to investigate the reason why this is happening it does not always reflect actual pressures or necessarily mean the load is over pressure. It is well known overpressure loads may display none of these indicators leading people to believe their load is safe when it isn't and conversely leading some to believe their load is overpressure when it isn't as illustrated in 260 Rems pictures.

[Don_Parsons]

Thanks for the Cal Zant artical Jay.

I can relate to what Cal is referring to in his article about not putting to much thought power into areas that might see limited benefits, purhaps it is wizer to focus on areas "where" a person could improve on his or her firearms, reloading, bullet selection, shooting set-up, or reading the winds

Like Cal said in his artical,,, if we address it all and become successful at it,,, then we will see positive change down range.
Attacking the areas that need the most attention would hopefully be the best areas to start.

The Cal Zant artical cross references with the Al Henderson archery ideas.

There are many factors at play, which one to address first. And not get hung up in one area only.

My good friend suggested I do this, this, and this at my choosing.
I will benefit with better accuracy as it becomes a natural habit every time.
Once this is working, I'm sure he will share with me on the next areas that need attention.

The reloading ammo thing is partly there, yes it could use a few tweaks here and there,,, but even I know which areas need attention first.

Thanks again Jay, I'm glad you put it up there as the connection from Cal and what my friend mentioned sync together.

Address areas that will show maximum benefits first.

Don

[Jay Kyle]

Originally Posted by markg

Looks like the 3 most important things are controlable; Cartridge, exact placement of the gong at a known distance, and using a kestrel to have an exact wind reading.

The one variable I am not sure how to exactly control is target distance. Do you guys use a construction tape to set out your exact distance from shooting position to target? Thats what I am thinking of doing. I dont think I can get a reading on my range finder out to 1000m and my range finder does not adjust for elevation changes.

Suggestions?

Hi Mark,
Figuring distance can be tricky if you're beyond your rangefinder. I'm fortunate enough to have picked up a Vectronix Terrapin before before Vectronix stopped selling them, so I'm good out to about 3500y - but before that I had to use Google Earth to figure my distances since I shoot on crown land.

The Kestral is great!, but between your Kestral, and the target, guessing the wind is a bit of like reading tea leaves.

Here's my spotter buddy and I out one day - we weren't looking for any particular accuracy this day - just getting lead out there from his stock Browning 300WM - about a 3/4 MOA rifle. The distance was 1970 to a boulder in the inner red circle.

BTW Thanks folks for the kind words - always like to share knowledge.

Jay