7mm 08 vs 308 win

[savagewsm]

I know there has been a pile of discussion on this comparison. However, I would like to here from those who have had experience with both. The reason is I am looking for a rifle for my 13 yr old next year. I have a 308 he can use but the gun is a bit heavy for him.

1) In a sporter model is the recoil of the 7-08 significantly lower than the 308
2) Is the 7 08 more accurate and flatter shooting in general ( all other factors considered of course)

I've read a lot of good things about this round and was wondering if it is worth replacing the 308. Some have suggested a .243 but I consider it a bit under powered for the purposes we will need it for.

[Pathfinder76]

Do you handload?

What purpose do you need it for?

[gramps73]

I and many others on the board hunt moose, elk and deer with the 7-08 and in the right hands and the right bullet it will do what you want it to do..

As far as flatter and faster if you reload maybe but again it is not the tool it is the carpenter..

Good luck with what ever you decide. I know allot of people say a .243 is too light but with a good bullet and shot placement it will also do the job.

g73

[leo]

In rifles of equal specifications I doubt there is much difference in recoil from a 140 gr. 7mm bullet vs a 150gr. from a 30 cal. Both are traveling in the area of 2800 fps +/-, the 7mm would likely have a better BC than the 308. Both are outstanding cartridges.

[Thunder/FX]

My son has been shooting a 7-08 for two years now (he is now 14) and he loves that rifle. There is no secret that the 7mm bullets are awesome shooters. I find the recoil on 7-08 to be noticeably less than the .308. I have been loading it with 139 gr bullets and he has knocked everything that he has fired it at down with no problems. It is a flat shooter and the young fella has no problems with it's mild recoil. I strongly recommend this cartridge for all young shooters. I only wish that it was around when I started out.
If your young person would like to give it a try, I am in the Edmonton area and I am sure we could arrange an outing.

Thunder

[savagewsm]

Originally Posted by Thunder/FX

My son has been shooting a 7-08 for two years now (he is now 14) and he loves that rifle. There is no secret that the 7mm bullets are awesome shooters. I find the recoil on 7-08 to be noticeably less than the .308. I have been loading it with 139 gr bullets and he has knocked everything that he has fired it at down with no problems. It is a flat shooter and the young fella has no problems with it's mild recoil. I strongly recommend this cartridge for all young shooters. I only wish that it was around when I started out.
If your young person would like to give it a try, I am in the Edmonton area and I am sure we could arrange an outing.

Thunder

That is a very kind offer and thank you but I live in central Sask. Your advice is very welcome and I just may have to get one and find a load that works for him.

[Traps]

This is one that can be debated in many kinds of ways, I'll try to keep its as objective as possible.

The 7mm-08 will have 16% less recoil in similar rifles (give or take a few % points).

The 7mm-08 will have about +100 fps in a bullet with the same sectional density (140 grain 7mm and a 165 gr 308) So the 7mm will shoot flatter.

The 308 will penetrate more as penetration is dictated by speed (before all you guys get your blood pressure up this is a comparison at similar sectional densities and if bullets were all created equal between calibers)

Both have a great selection of bullets, if you reload the 7mm would be better IMO for a young hunter and its one that they will never grow out of if they so choose. If you don't reload 308 all the way. Both will be good for anything in Sask.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Traps

The 308 will penetrate more as penetration is dictated by speed (before all you guys get your blood pressure up this is a comparison at similar sectional densities and if bullets were all created equal between calibers)

Explain the science behind that theory. It's a doozy.

[Traps]

What would penetrate more a 165 grain 308 bullet at 2900 fps or at 2200 fps?

What penetrates more a 165 or a 200 grain bullet (with nothing but 35 added grains to the back end of the 165 bullet) at a velocity of 2500 fps?

What is sectional density and how does that relate to penetration assuming all other variables aside are constant?

What as a general rule dictactes penetration in expanding bullets?




Chuck you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink......

Originally Posted by Traps

What would penetrate more a 165 grain 308 bullet at 2900 fps or at 2200 fps?

...

Would totally depend on bullet type. SD is an outdated theory that applied well to non-jacketed bullets but that's pretty much where it's practicality ends.

[Traps]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Would totally depend on bullet type. SD is an outdated theory that applied well to non-jacketed bullets but that's pretty much where it's practicality ends.

Same bullet at both speeds.

SD is applicable when applied with the proper constraints, no constraints and its a crapshoot.

Originally Posted by Traps

Same bullet at both speeds.

SD is applicable when applied with the proper constraints, no constraints and its a crapshoot.

Doesn't matter...some bullets penetrate better at high speeds and some better at low speeds. SD was a theory developed for solid lead bullets....with jacketed it has little relevance...especially in regards to penetration. All that matters there is bullet construction.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Traps

What would penetrate more a 165 grain 308 bullet at 2900 fps or at 2200 fps?

What penetrates more a 165 or a 200 grain bullet (with nothing but 35 added grains to the back end of the 165 bullet) at a velocity of 2500 fps?

What is sectional density and how does that relate to penetration assuming all other variables aside are constant?

What as a general rule dictactes penetration in expanding bullets?




Chuck you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink......

That answer has nothing to do with the 308 penetrating more than the 7mm-08 because of speed. Which is what you said.

Bullet construction has more to do with penetration than any one factor and bullet diameter can't be discounted either. If you would like to use SD in your formula (a flawed start) and then put speed into the equation (speed can hinder penetration) then by your criteria the 7mm-08 wins every time.

[Traps]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Doesn't matter...some bullets penetrate better at high speeds and some better at low speeds. SD was a theory developed for solid lead bullets....with jacketed it has little relevance...especially in regards to penetration. All that matters there is bullet construction.

I agree it does get fuzzy with some bullets but I am not talking about some bullets, I am talking about a scientific control where all else remains constant and one variable changes at a time. In a hunters world your right all that does matter at the end of the day is bullet construction and throws sectional density out the window.

As the OP was asking about a hunting rifle...it would seem best to confine the discussion to what would happen in a hunting situation........

[Traps]

Originally Posted by chuck

That answer has nothing to do with the 308 penetrating more than the 7mm-08 because of speed. Which is what you said.

It does. Whats your theory?

Originally Posted by chuck

Bullet construction has more to do with penetration than any one factor and bullet diameter can't be discounted either. If you would like to use SD in your formula (a flawed start) and then put speed into the equation (speed can hinder penetration) then by your criteria the 7mm-08 wins every time.

Hence the reason why I said if bullets were created equal across calibers. We all know that bullet construction dictates penetration, very common knowledge, I thought by saying equal across calibers would have negated bullet construction, it was lost on you. 7mm-08 wins every time....are you sure about that...... you better reread my prior post again. I think your reading want you think you want to read. Read it, process, understand, think and comment.

[Traps]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

As the OP was asking about a hunting rifle...it would seem best to confine the discussion to what would happen in a hunting situation........

I am sure the OP is quite capable of gathering opinions and doing with it as they see fit.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Traps

Hence the reason why I said if bullets were created equal across calibers. We all know that bullet construction dictates penetration, very common knowledge, I thought by saying equal across calibers would have negated bullet construction, it was lost on you. 7mm-08 wins every time....are you sure about that...... you better reread my prior post again. I think your reading want you think you want to read. Read it, process, understand, think and comment.

OK. I got the 7mm-08 is faster and 308 penetrates more cause penetration is indicative of speed. But this is on Mars cause it is impossible on Earth.

How'd I do?

[Leeper]

I bought a reamer for the 7mm-08 before we had seen any rifles because I thought it was a neat cartridge. I have always been a fan of the 7x57 and the 7-08 is a 7x57 in a shorter package. Anyway, I made quite a few rifles for others but didn't get around to making one for myself until about 1986. I recall the first time I had it out; the recoil was light enough that I thought I might have made a mistake on the powder charge. I had not. The light recoil is a recurring theme with the 7mm-08. On the other hand, I have never fired any 308 and figured it didn't kick enough! On paper, they should feel closer than they do.
As much as I liked the 7mm-08, I didn't use mine much but when I did, it worked very well.
A young man who used to hunt for elk at our place each year, started out with a Remington Model 7 in 7mm-08. I believe he killed three bull elk with three shots before some buddies convinced him he was undergunned for elk and talked him into a 300 Win Mag. He killed an elk with it with one shot as well but he got more exercize carrying the 300!
In a comparison between the two cartridges, neither shows a clear cut advantage. In a rifle capable of showing the difference, the 308 is a bit more accurate. In any hunting rifle, the difference is meaningless. In the end, each cartridge has a clear advantage in one area or another. The 308 has the advantage of ammunition and component availability. The 7mm-08 has that very noticable advantage in felt recoil.
Some will swear that 7mm's kill better than 30's. Others will swear that the opposite is true. The reality is that there is probably no measurable difference. This is another case where bullet selection will have a greater effect than cartridge selection.
The difference in trajectory is of no consequence at reasonable game shooting ranges, which I consider to be out to about 300-350 yds.
If you reload, either cartridge can work well but, if recoil is a factor at all, and with a 13 year old, it is, I would lean toward the 7mm-08. Leeper.

[Jamie]

Looks like Santa picked right for Willy!!!

I willpost up a report once we get out and shoot the thing.

Jamie

[Traps]

So would you say that given 50 bullets of a given weight with similar SD, each of a different construction with 25 for the 308 and 25 for the 7mm there would be no differences in average penetration between the two calibers?

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Leeper

Some will swear that 7mm's kill better than 30's. Others will swear that the opposite is true. The reality is that there is probably no measurable difference. This is another case where bullet selection will have a greater effect than cartridge selection.
The difference in trajectory is of no consequence at reasonable game shooting ranges, which I consider to be out to about 300-350 yds.
If you reload, either cartridge can work well but, if recoil is a factor at all, and with a 13 year old, it is, I would lean toward the 7mm-08. Leeper.

My thoughts as well.
Both are so close that the terminal ballistics on a white tail would not be of any consequence if both bullets went where they were supposed to, nor if they hit where they were NOT supposed to.
Cat

[TangoKilo]

Originally Posted by Leeper

I bought a reamer for the 7mm-08 before we had seen any rifles because I thought it was a neat cartridge. I have always been a fan of the 7x57 and the 7-08 is a 7x57 in a shorter package. Anyway, I made quite a few rifles for others but didn't get around to making one for myself until about 1986. I recall the first time I had it out; the recoil was light enough that I thought I might have made a mistake on the powder charge. I had not. The light recoil is a recurring theme with the 7mm-08. On the other hand, I have never fired any 308 and figured it didn't kick enough! On paper, they should feel closer than they do.
As much as I liked the 7mm-08, I didn't use mine much but when I did, it worked very well.
A young man who used to hunt for elk at our place each year, started out with a Remington Model 7 in 7mm-08. I believe he killed three bull elk with three shots before some buddies convinced him he was undergunned for elk and talked him into a 300 Win Mag. He killed an elk with it with one shot as well but he got more exercize carrying the 300!
In a comparison between the two cartridges, neither shows a clear cut advantage. In a rifle capable of showing the difference, the 308 is a bit more accurate. In any hunting rifle, the difference is meaningless. In the end, each cartridge has a clear advantage in one area or another. The 308 has the advantage of ammunition and component availability. The 7mm-08 has that very noticable advantage in felt recoil.
Some will swear that 7mm's kill better than 30's. Others will swear that the opposite is true. The reality is that there is probably no measurable difference. This is another case where bullet selection will have a greater effect than cartridge selection.
The difference in trajectory is of no consequence at reasonable game shooting ranges, which I consider to be out to about 300-350 yds.
If you reload, either cartridge can work well but, if recoil is a factor at all, and with a 13 year old, it is, I would lean toward the 7mm-08. Leeper.

I'm never one to argue with Bill, and now is not the time to start.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Traps

What would penetrate more a 165 grain 308 bullet at 2900 fps or at 2200 fps?

It depends on the bullet. A friend of mine got upset one time when I could penetrate a spruce tree that was about 14" in dia. with a 170 grain 30-30 bullet yet his 300 magnum with a pointed silvertip factory load would not exit the same tree. So we did a little test between the rifles, loading the same bullets in each gun and seeing which would penetrate more. We loaded up 170 gr flatnose silvertips, 165 gr ballistic tips, and 150 gr barnes.
all bullets shot out of a 30-30 savage 340 bolt action and a remington 700 300 mag.

The 170 flatnose silvertips out of the 30-30 at about 2050 fps penetrated about 12 inches of wet newspaper, left a nicely shaped mushroom. Same bullet out of the 300 mag at 3125 fps completely fragmented and only penetrated 9".

With the 165 ballistic tip @2100fps. the 30-30 penetrated 14" and left a nicely mushroomed bullet, the higher speed ballistic tip from the 300 mag @3100 fps, again blew all to pieces and only penetrated about 10"

On the other hand the 150 barns at about 2200 out of the 30-30 penetrated about 17" into the wet newspaper and at 3250 out of the 300 mag it penetrated all 24" of the newspaper we had and exited.This type of monolithic bullet bullet remains intact at high velocity so the more speed you have with these type bullets the more penetration can be achieved.

Penetration is very dependant on bullet construction and velocity. With typical cup and core expanding bullets you can reach a point of diminishing returns once a point of velocity is achieved that overcomes the bullets integrity, the bullet begins to fragment and penetration suffers. This is why at high speeds traditional cup and core bullets often come apart at close range, fragment and do not exit an animal, yet at long range after it has lost substantial velocity its not unusual for that same bullet to penetrate completely through the same animal hit in the same place.

[Traps]

Bushrat yes, that is very good stuff there, but it still doesn't answer the original question. Its the same bullet construction driven at both 2900 fps and 2200 fps, its a comparison that is valid for any particular bullet, the one driven at 2200 fps will penetrate more than the same type of bullet at 2900 fps as your experiment has shown for the most part. That was my point, that is why I say that because the 308 drives the same sectional density bullet about 100 fps slower then in theory it should penetrate more if bullets across calibers were created equal.

I think even the most seasoned vets on here would admit the 308 and the 270 comparison would result in the 308 having more ability to penetrate across the board as a general rule because of velocity. Its where one picks a particular bullet that these rules go out the door because it could be a solid or it could be a frangible grenade.

[7MM Mike]

Traps,
I dont know if all the vets would agree with you on your .270 vs .308 comment - I'm not a vet so I cant comment. But I will comment that you are overlooking frontal area in your comparison.
Considering similar bullets from each, and a velocity difference of only 100fps, and the .308's greater frontal area, I would suggest that the difference in penetration amounts to almost nothing.

I dont see how comparing two .308 bullets with a 700fps difference has anything to do with the 7mm-08 vs. 308 comparison.

Please comment on my read/process/understand/think/comment skills - you seem to be a fair judge.
Regards,
7mm

[Traps]

Originally Posted by 7MM Mike

Traps,
I dont know if all the vets would agree with you on your .270 vs .308 comment - I'm not a vet so I cant comment. But I will comment that you are overlooking frontal area in your comparison.
Considering similar bullets from each, and a velocity difference of only 100fps, and the .308's greater frontal area, I would suggest that the difference in penetration amounts to almost nothing.

I dont see how comparing two .308 bullets with a 700fps difference has anything to do with the 7mm-08 vs. 308 comparison.

Please comment on my read/process/understand/think/comment skills - you seem to be a fair judge.
Regards,
7mm

Hi Mike,

Frontal area is accounted for in the comparison. Sectional density is mass divided by the cross sectional area. So for an equivalent comparison across calibers the larger caliber has to add mass to equate to the same sectional density. A 140 grain 7mm bullet has a sectional density of 0.248 while it takes the .308 bullet 25 more grains at 165 grains. The 140 grain 7mm bullet can be driven 100 fps faster than the .308 bullet of the same sectional density, this makes sense as they both have almost equivalent powder capacities, but less weight in the 7mm causes a higher velocity even though the 308 is more efficient. This 100 fps doesn't sound like much but if you read this rathecombe article (a very good one at that) it explains it best and is supported with a lot of data collection.

This is written from the webpage http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/b...s/methods.html


"Perhaps the most striking observation from this penetration data is that increasing velocity has a detrimental effect on penetration for nearly all bullets over the entire velocity range of interest. This result surprised me because, while I knew from anecdotal evidence that very high velocities caused even heavy jacketed bullets to fragment or overexpand, I expected that this fall off in penetration performance would only occur at velocities above 2800 fps or so and, that for any given design, there would be a peak in the penetration performance curve, with diminishing penetration following diminishing velocity. In fact, what is observed is that penetration reaches a limiting upper value rather quickly at the lowest velocity the bullet will deform (the hydrodynamic penetration velocity or the plastic velocity - usually 1800-2000 fps) and that penetration tends to deteriorate steadily at all higher velocities. Hard bullet designs exhibit an abrupt step function behavior at this velocity.

The very best performers, in terms of penetration, are those non-bonded premium bullets (e.g., the Barnes X-Bullet and Nosler Partition) which exhibit (on average) essentially constant penetration (~19 inches) over the entire velocity range of interest. The bonded bullets, again on average, are somewhat better (~10%) at penetration than conventional bullets; managing 15+ inches in depth up to an impact velocity of ~2900 fps, against only 2100 to 2300 fps for the conventional and commercial classes of bullet. Yet the non-bonded premium bullets penetrate significantly deeper than the bonded bullets - about 25% more. "

My point with the comparison of 700 fps between the two 308 bullets is to show velocity is the biggest contributor to how much a given bullet will penetrate. This was done although indirectly by the Rathcombe fellow above. What he should have done is measure velocity vs penetration for one bullet - this method used in testing when there are too many variables to account for (ie bullet construction, caliber, etc) is to keep all variables constant except for one, then test to see what relationship if any relationship there is between an input, which is velocity in this case and output which is penetration. Otherwise we'd be left with numeous tests on different bullets resulting in an array of useless information. From his testing especially from the comparison between the 7mm Rem Mag and the 7mm-08 with the same bullets but different impact velocities shows that the 7mm-08 will outpenetrate the 7mm Rem Mag and why this does this is because of velocity. I believe this to be the same between calibers at the same sectional density if bullets where constructed equally for penetration. That is my longwinded explanation to say that velocity plays a very important role in how much or little a deforming bullet penetrates.

[Pathfinder76]

But the main contributor to any penetration is bullet construction. Again.

Sectional density is almost irrelevant. Again.

Velocity is only relevant as it can impact how a bullet reacts to resistance based on it's construction. Again.

Originally Posted by chuck

But the main contributor to any penetration is bullet construction. Again.

Sectional density is almost irrelevant. Again.

Velocity is only relevant as it can impact how a bullet reacts to resistance based on it's construction. Again.

What he said!

[BC7stw]

My daughter is EXTREMELY recoil sensitive, tried a somewhat reduced load in a savage 99 .308, she fired a couple rounds and handed it back. She also tried a stevens 25-06 and didn't like it.

She now shoots a 7-08 in a marlin bolt gun. I reloaded a 145 grand slam as we hunt bears moose and deer. I reduced the load slightly and she love it and shoots it really well. The recoil seems low in this rifle combo. My daughter has yet to take her first big game animal, but turned out some very nice groups at the range this summer.

Last spring while bear hunting we thought we might stop and kill a few rocks in an old gravel pit on the way home. My son told her to aim at the small white rock beside the such and such. She sat down, put her elbows on her knees and squeezed off a shot. He said you missed, where were you shooting. She replied, no I didn't. She was shooting at one farther out. He was looking at one at about 80 yds, she thought he meant one at about 150. She nailed it the second shot to. She now enjoys shooting, she didn't before.

One thing to think about, it is the cartidge plus the rifle that contibuted to felt recoil. That savage seems to recoil quite hard for a .308, I had a parker hale a few years ago in .308 that the felt recoil was less and quite pleasent for my son to shoot when he was starting out.

7-08, is accurate, good choice of bullets, can use it for years and won't grow out of it. Just my thoughts.