Lloydminster RCMP

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by norwestalta

I don't know of many circumstances where it was warranted for them to have access to a c8 more than the rest of us. Most of the police shootings are ambush style where the only thing that would of made a difference is time.

Bignell in Grande Prairie
Campbell in Fort McMurray
Martin in Janvier

All three were outdoors where the SUS was sending gun fire at Police from over 100 meters.

Just need to do little digging and you can definitely find many situations in recent history where a Carbine would have been a very effective tool.

[Got Juice?]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

Bignell in Grande Prairie
Campbell in Fort McMurray
Martin in Janvier

All three were outdoors where the SUS was sending gun fire at Police from over 100 meters.

Just need to do little digging and you can definitely find many situations in recent history where a Carbine would have been a very effective tool.

Over 100m?

I'll take their .308 Rifle over the AR any day. Especially because I can then back off ANOTHER 150M to make a shot that counts. (and hopefully use that added distance to keep ME SAFE)

[connexion123]

Originally Posted by C5Hines

So what do you suggest? Do we get the military to police us then? Cause if we had it your way they would be the only ones able to match firepower with some of the clowns out there.

You can't send police officers to a situation with nothing but pistols and shotguns when the people they need to stop have automatic weapons.

Wow! Auto's hey? Like all these rapists and gangstas in hiding?! All have autos?

How about they stop being scared of their shadow and realize that the general population are decent folks.

[connexion123]

Originally Posted by 6gunner

Than what is there role exactly? Please enlighten us. Is it different from what is posted on their website?


What do we do?
As an RCMP police officer, you will help ensure public safety and security, investigate crimes and enforce the law.


Some of the duties of a police officer:

Enforce the law
Conduct investigations
Ensure the safety and security of the public
Community awareness and relations

It was ruled by the supreme court of Canada that the police have no duty to protect.

I could give a crap what their website says.

Also says the want upstanding people with character to be officers and some murder, some sell drugs, some assault their spouses.

You believe everything you read?

[Got Juice?]

Originally Posted by connexion123

Wow! Auto's hey? Like all these rapists and gangstas in hiding?! All have autos?

How about they stop being scared of their shadow and realize that the general population are decent folks.

And treat the general public with respect?

You can't be serious!!!!


HERETIC!!!!

I agree 100%.

The RCMP have lost their way, and their mission, and their raison d'etre

This lack of public support has been well EARNED by the RCMP.

A Gradual erosion since the 1990's.....


Strange, ALL CRIME in Canada has been DECREASING for the last 20 years, yet the RCMP are becoming more and more ARMED. And their attitude reflects this mental state.

[norwestalta]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

Bignell in Grande Prairie
Campbell in Fort McMurray
Martin in Janvier

All three were outdoors where the SUS was sending gun fire at Police from over 100 meters.

Just need to do little digging and you can definitely find many situations in recent history where a Carbine would have been a very effective tool.

I don't doubt that there is circumstances where a longer range firearm is needed. A c8 wouldn't of made a diffence in st albert or moncton. A justice system where the lawmakers are accountable would make a difference more than any patrol carbine ever would.

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by Got Juice?

Over 100m?

I'll take their .308 Rifle over the AR any day. Especially because I can then back off ANOTHER 150M to make a shot that counts. (and hopefully use that added distance to keep ME SAFE)

Yeah but the 308's are not personal issue so they are stored at the Detachment until needed. So the next time a gun fight breaks out I am sure "Mr. Bad Guy" will allow the Mountie to call "Time Out" while he runs back to the Detachment and grabs the rifle. The Carbine on the other hand will be in the car ready to go at all times.

Also if you can't hit a human silhouette at 200 m with a Colt and Aimpoint, I would suggest a little more range time is in order.

FYI. Police normally don't shoot people at 250m and over because it is a little difficult to articulate imminent danger. Unless of course you are dealing with an armed individual who is actively executing people or firing on your location and you have a clear line of sight. But if he is shooting at you at 250m you might be able to find some cover if look a little!

And sometime Police don't have the luxury of being able to "back off." Fairly hard to explain how you moved away from an active shooter in an urban and left the public to fend for themselves. Sometimes you need to stay in the fight and get the job done, and when you do, it is sure nice having the best equipment available, don't ya think?

Maybe the 308 isn't the better option?

[Got Juice?]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

yeah but the 308's are not personal issue so they are stored at the detachment until needed. So the next time a gun fight breaks out i am sure "mr. Bad guy" will allow the mountie to call "time out" while he runs back to the detachment and grabs the rifle. The carbine on the other hand will be in the car ready to go at all times.

the ar's are not issue either.....but for select members that are trained.... And that is directly from the rcmp members.

also if you can't hit a human silhouette at 200 m with a colt and aimpoint, i would suggest a little more range time is in order.

you are right, i am a terrible marksman. I'd take any bolt, or even my #1 at 200m over an ar. I can be 90% certain that 2moa accuracy will beat a 3moa dot which btw is actually 6moa at 200. How many inches is that again?

fyi. Police normally don't shoot people at 250m and over because it is a little difficult to articulate imminent danger. Unless of course you are dealing with an armed individual who is actively executing people or firing on your location and you have a clear line of sight. But if he is shooting at you at 250m you might be able to find some cover if look a little!

Maybe the 308 isn't the better option?

if you are being shot at... You are in imminent danger

[Got Juice?]

Originally Posted by norwestalta

I don't doubt that there is circumstances where a longer range firearm is needed. A c8 wouldn't of made a diffence in st albert or moncton. A justice system where the lawmakers are accountable would make a difference more than any patrol carbine ever would.

BEST response ever!

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by norwestalta

I don't doubt that there is circumstances where a longer range firearm is needed. A c8 wouldn't of made a diffence in st albert or moncton. A justice system where the lawmakers are accountable would make a difference more than any patrol carbine ever would.

No probably not for the initial officers, but sure wouldn't have hurt for the follow up Members dealing with the situation as it evolved. In neither circumstance did the Suspect kill himself or immediately surrender after the murders. The Members in pursuit after the initial call were in as much or even more danger that the first as now the Suspect has nothing to lose.

Also when the Carbines are issue they just don't hand them over and say "here ya go" Each Member goes on a one week course which includes tactics. Maybe the Members in Moncton would have stopped short of the scene and approached on foot with Carbines if given the opportunity. As they pulled up in the Police car they were sitting ducks unable to respond as they were attempting to control a car and draw their pistols and return fire while being fired on..... sounds like fun eh?

[norwestalta]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

No probably not for the initial officers, but sure wouldn't have hurt for the follow up Members dealing with the situation as it evolved. In neither circumstance did the Suspect kill himself or immediately surrender after the murders. The Members in pursuit after the initial call were in as much or even more danger that the first as now the Suspect has nothing to lose.

Also when the Carbines are issue they just don't hand them over and say "here ya go" Each Member goes on a one week course which includes tactics. Maybe the Members in Moncton would have stopped short of the scene and approached on foot with Carbines if given the opportunity. As they pulled up in the Police car they were sitting ducks unable to respond as they were attempting to control a car and draw their pistols and return fire while being fired on..... sounds like fun eh?

Not fun at all hence a Ambush. A ambush is a ambush no matter what the officers have for a weapon.
Don't get me wrong. I'm all for the police to have these firearms as I am for you and the rest of the public to have them. I would gladly take a week long course to be able to carry a ar in my truck.

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by Got Juice?

if you are being shot at... You are in imminent danger

Yeah but there are Member issued the Carbine and they are with them for the entire shift. The numbers will increase over time but training is slow. It took 4 years to convert the RCMP from revolvers to pistols and that was a 3 day course.

If you can find a documented Police shooting over 200 meters, post it up and I would be happy to have a look.

And yes if you are being shot at you are in imminent danger, but you are also responsible for every round you let go so if it strays or goes through your back drop, "I was being shot at" won't cut it in an enquiry. At 250 m can you really accurately assess any situation or potential dangers. Might try to close the distance a little before opening up.

[Got Juice?]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

Yeah but there are Member issued the Carbine and they are with them for the entire shift. The numbers will increase over time but training is slow. It took 4 years to convert the RCMP from revolvers to pistols and that was a 3 day course.

If you can find a documented Police shooting over 200 meters, post it up and I would be happy to have a look.

And yes if you are being shot at you are in imminent danger, but you are also responsible for every round you let go so if it strays or goes through your back drop, "I was being shot at" won't cut it in an enquiry. At 250 m can you really accurately assess any situation or potential dangers. Might try to close the distance a little before opening up.

Can't fix it......

[norwestalta]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

Yeah but there are Member issued the Carbine and they are with them for the entire shift. The numbers will increase over time but training is slow. It took 4 years to convert the RCMP from revolvers to pistols and that was a 3 day course.

If you can find a documented Police shooting over 200 meters, post it up and I would be happy to have a look.

And yes if you are being shot at you are in imminent danger, but you are also responsible for every round you let go so if it strays or goes through your back drop, "I was being shot at" won't cut it in an enquiry. At 250 m can you really accurately assess any situation or potential dangers. Might try to close the distance a little before opening up.

Never been in the situation of some one shooting at me but if I were I would think 250 meters is close enough. I don't think I'd want to get any closer.

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by Got Juice?

Over 100m?

I'll take their .308 Rifle over the AR any day. Especially because I can then back off ANOTHER 150M to make a shot that counts. (and hopefully use that added distance to keep ME SAFE)

Whooo thats a doozie lol fig 11 @ 200 . Lolol .

[Iron Brew]

Originally Posted by gramps73

why the thumb down?

Quite simply, the comment about private firearms ownership.

[sprbloggins]

RCMP officers around Canada face increasingly widespread criticism, rush to judgement and trial-by-media, as anti-police rhetoric reaches a fever pitch. We are now seeing that the impact of anti-police sentiment statements such as “police officers are the enemy” taken to an extreme, can destabilize communities, towns and city's.

My spouse who is a member sees this everyday she steps out and works with the community. The "system is obviously broken and needs to be fixed."
Not every member treats the community/individuals like crap and "bully's" them like some posts here say. They know they are outnumbered not liked and crapped on my just about everyone on the street.

Complaints here say 10-20 minutes to get to a local call? When there is only one Member on duty that shift (not the Members fault) they have to realize their safety is on the line and backup could be hours away and they have no idea what the circumstances are.

I saw many Canadians complain and throw insults at myself and other members of the CF when we were in A'Stan. I believed in the cause when we were there just like some of the Mounties who believe in the cause they serve.

The RCMP organization has lost too many brave Officers in the line of duty in the last few years and right now certain people here on this thread are doing nothing but insulting and thumbing their noses up at them.

Should they or shouldn't they have AR style weapons? Well that's why we are here debating this issue. This shouldn't be a Anti-Police thread.

My 2 cents fellow Outdoorsmen.

E22B out.

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by norwestalta

Never been in the situation of some one shooting at me but if I were I would think 250 meters is close enough. I don't think I'd want to get any closer.

I think that they don't want to get closer either, but sometimes the job requires you to do something that goes against normal self preservation.

The Member seen running towards the gun fire in Ottawa, I am sure they didn't want to run towards gun fire, but that was their duty that day.

And that alone is the justification for the Carbines, as Police Officers never know when their "day" will come. For some it will be never come and the Carbine will remain in the car their entire career. But for those that will face a life threatening encounter, lets prepare them the best we can so that they can go home at the end of their shifts like we do.

[twofifty]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Interesting...I'd like to read the news story if it's available. I can't find it, but I'm not a master of google-fu.

Sounds like the sort of story that would have made headlines, but maybe I missed it.

Ruga others and Brendan's dad have referred to ambush incidents that actually took place.

I was speaking of a convo with a respected current member who said that an ambush is part of the hazards of the job. He is looking forward to being issued better tools, i.e. the C8.

I also know, in the case of this particular member, that he will spend personal quality training time over and above the minimum training that the force will provide when they issue him a C8. It is very likely that the majority of members will decide to get by with the minimum, and will barely pass their annual qualifications.

[nelsonob1]

I don't understand the importance of the RCMP's character to the discussion on whether this particular gun is appropriate. The gun is just a tool and will either meet the needs of the job or not. IMO a fully auto, high powered AR is not appropriate for police use unless it is being used by trained specialists. Too much collateral risk.

[norwestalta]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

I think that they don't want to get closer either, but sometimes the job requires you to do something that goes against normal self preservation.

The Member seen running towards the gun fire in Ottawa, I am sure they didn't want to run towards gun fire, but that was their duty that day.

And that alone is the justification for the Carbines, as Police Officers never know when their "day" will come. For some it will be never come and the Carbine will remain in the car their entire career. But for those that will face a life threatening encounter, lets prepare them the best we can so that they can go home at the end of their shifts like we do.

There was also a few that didn't run to the action instead hid behind a corner. I agree that they should go home at the end their shift safe and sound.

[twofifty]

Originally Posted by sprbloggins

RCMP officers around Canada face increasingly widespread criticism, rush to judgement and trial-by-media, as anti-police rhetoric reaches a fever pitch. We are now seeing that the impact of anti-police sentiment statements such as “police officers are the enemy” taken to an extreme, can destabilize communities, towns and city's.

....

Thanks for sharing your wife's perspective and experience.

Yes there is widespread criticism. The RCMP didn't go from being a national icon to being the butt of every negative comment overnight.
This happened gradually, over decades.

The pitch and frequency of criticism increased the more the senior brass kept on sweeping things under the carpet. Bad members were repeatedly reassigned to other regions or provinces, promoted even. Members who played loosely with the truth did their best to obstruct courts of inquiry.

Members filing internal complainants of abuse of authority and sexual abuse were shunned, intimidated, their spirit broken, then drummed out.

The force always investigated itself, then inevitably exonerated itself.

The force for decades refused to open itself to accountability, to oversight.
It has repeatedly stonewalled individuals and institutions, including Parliamentary Committees, who -rightly or wrongly- asked for more accountability.

The destabilization you speak of is the direct result of the years of RCMP mismanagement that I've sketched above. Sorry, but that outfit needs more than a makeover.

[roper1]

Carbine training, situational awareness, investigative techniques, none are worth shat if they are not practiced. The idea there will be enough practice to MAINTAIN PROFICIENCY is laughable, absolutely flat laughable if wasn't so unfortunate. Waste of taxpayers time & money on a firearm gathering dust in the console!! How many instances of the cops unable to kill an out-of -control poodle @ 15 paces??? I really wish every officer returned home safe end of every shift, but more likely to get hurt on the side of the road, if you can believe what you read. Forget more firepower, they won't know how to shoot it, IMO.

[Scott N]

Originally Posted by twofifty

Thanks for sharing your wife's perspective and experience.

Yes there is widespread criticism. The RCMP didn't go from being a national icon to being the butt of every negative comment overnight.
This happened gradually, over decades.

The pitch and frequency of criticism increased the more the senior brass kept on sweeping things under the carpet. Bad members were repeatedly reassigned to other regions or provinces, promoted even. Members who played loosely with the truth did their best to obstruct courts of inquiry.

Members filing internal complainants of abuse of authority and sexual abuse were shunned, intimidated, their spirit broken, then drummed out.

The force always investigated itself, then inevitably exonerated itself.

The force for decades refused to open itself to accountability, to oversight.
It has repeatedly stonewalled individuals and institutions, including Parliamentary Committees, who -rightly or wrongly- asked for more accountability.

The destabilization you speak of is the direct result of the years of RCMP mismanagement that I've sketched above. Sorry, but that outfit needs more than a makeover.

You nailed it.

[twofifty]

I'll add that a new officer, who has maybe 9 years of post-university real adult living under his or her Sam Browne, has no idea of the force's decades old track record. This is not much life experience, and fresh out of Depot, not enough time to recognize the institutional patterns that are signs of decades old dysfunction and disconnect with society.

Groupthink:
It is very easy for these young members, when gathered together in sorrow and disbelief at a colleague's funeral such as has happened too many times lately, to focus their collective frustrations on the stupid civilians who dare criticise the force, who dare ask for accountability. Nobody likes criticism, especially not members of a (once proud) 142 year old institution.

The mindset:
Officers are trained and expected to take charge and stay in charge. They are the ones who ask the questions of civilians, not the other way around.
Eventually, this mindset is the fertile ground that supports the stonewalling behind which rot takes root only to rise to the upper ranks.

This leaves very little room or time for 'good' members to establish themselves in a community (they have a personal PR nightmare not of their making to first overcome) and also to establish themselves in their careers. sprbloggins' wife may have experienced this.

When this happens decade after decade, cadet class after cadet class, the institution is paralysed and unable to reconnect with the reality of community policing in a modern & diverse society.

edit: added 'e' to Sam Browne & paragraph about new members establishing their new careers.

[roper1]

twofifty, you have some CLARITY going sir, thank you for your insight!!!

[darbgnik]

I agree with a few of the posters musings on the article. It's an unfortunate statement, that "it's unfortunate that people own guns".........

I also agree that the RCMP should have access to every tool they need for the situation. But I also agree that a few of the overzealous ones will bust that carbine out when it's unnecessary, however, the benefits outweigh that scenario.

I have personally seen 3 young RCMP officers wait in a Sears parking lot, behind their cars, with their guns drawn, waiting for reported shop lifters to exit the building...... That's right, shoplifters, not armed robbers. I know there is a level of force vs encountered situation they are supposed to follow, but the issue is, a lot don't. There should have been serious disciplinary action for the shoplifting incident, but it didn't even make the paper.

I also agree with the poster who pointed out a lot of other jobs are statistically more dangerous. Obviously none of those other dangerous jobs have to deal with the same bull****, seeing people at their worst day in and day out. But if you don't want to deal with that, don't join the RCMP. If your sense of self preservation outweighs your common sense, don't join the RCMP. The American police credo of protect yourself first, worry about the rest later, is moving north of the border. Sad.

In know I'm rambling, but I had one other thought about posters musings of terming a carbine vs an assault rifle... When the RCMP here confiscated a mans weapons in relation to other weapons offences,(he supposedly bought parts to convert a pistol to full auto, idiot) they posted a picture of the weapons they confiscated online with descriptions. Among the mostly hunting rigs like wood stocked bolts guns and shotties, plus the pistol in question, there was a Savage 110BA bolt action rifle. They called it a "Savage assault rifle". I laughed out loud! That's the rig I want breeching a door! A 15 pound bolt action! But it was evil, because it was black and mean looking...... And I shouldn't own it, because I'm dangerous....


I absolutely can't believe all the senseless deaths of RCMP officers recently. Senseless! Mayerthorpe, Moncton, St Albert. I think it will be hard for members to act like business as usual with that weighing in their minds. And that makes me nervous, because I am just another threat to their safety.........not a person. And safety is the new religion, in every industry. Only problem is when it becomes personal safety only(making it home), in the RCMPs interactions with the rest of us.

No go ahead and pick me apart. Lol

[Ruffgrouse]

A Cop bashing thread on AO.... who would have ever guessed.

Some of you are really out of touch. Very Sad.

Experts in the field I would guess.

We are hiring.... how about you get off your ass and make a difference.

[fish gunner]

What we have here is an escalation .... most wont understand but geewhiz look ma cops with no guns http://m.bbc.com/news/magazine-19641398 . In fact at the time of the article police were against arming police . "We do not do these things because they are easy , we do these things because they are hard "

[darbgnik]

Originally Posted by Ruffgrouse

A Cop bashing thread on AO.... who would have ever guessed.

Some of you are really out of touch. Very Sad.

Experts in the field I would guess.

We are hiring.... how about you get off your ass and make a difference.

Like I said in my post, If you don't want to deal with bull****, don't join the RCMP, and I am one of those....... I also couldn't stand the pay cut.

But thanks for assuming society at large is sitting on it's ass, and only you are making a difference. Mentalities like that reinforce cop bashing.

But I have to wonder, was I cop bashing as well?