Justin Trudeau to remove senators from Liberal caucus

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

He dropped em all.

Fluff move or not... it will impress a lot of folks and put pressure on the Conservatives. It also leaves the NDP with nothing to respond with since they do not have any senators.

Gotta give the guy credit... it was a slick move and he managed to pull it off without leaks etc so it has even more impact.

He didn't "drop" them all...he told them they were no longer part of the lower house Caucus.....sheesh!!!!...he finally said something that didn't sound stupid or totally irrelevant and means absolutely nothing and you guys are dancing in the streets and phoning the decorators for the PM's residence,, hilarious!!!!

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by blackpheasant

Maybe because Harper actually has a resume and has done a good job fiscally running the country...lots of chatter from the left but nothing out of the ordinary for Canadian politics, Its going to be tough to knock the Conservatives out of power there will be lots of good news coming out prior to the next election, things like 0 deficit, lower taxes lots a good stuff that Libs hate.

Also by the time the next election campaign starts the Conservatives will have a warehouse full of Juniors gaffs, he is golden for the conservatives, vote splitting between the dippers and Libs will surely seal the deal for our man Steve from Calgary...

Please... if Harper had has his way while in opposition we would be in no better shape than the US.
Under his control the ecconomy has become increasingly more vulnerable and ecconomists are beginning to speak out.

The bottom line is that many are wondering why exactly they are taking credict for policies that the Liberals kept in place... a surplus that the Liberals left behind and an ecconomy that has been weakening at an alarming rate as of late.

I'm not saying that the others would have done better but their success WRT the ecconomy is largely one of perception rather than actual achievement.

And lets face it...the only reason Harper is "from" Calgary is because his riding was a sure thing.
Not that others have not done the same thing to ensure that their leader gets a seat.

[hal53]

^^^^ is your sig line from personal experience???

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by hal53

He didn't "drop" them all...he told them they were no longer part of the lower house Caucus.....sheesh!!!!...he finally said something that didn't sound stupid or totally irrelevant and means absolutely nothing and you guys are dancing in the streets and phoning the decorators for the PM's residence,, hilarious!!!!

Justin Trudeau has expelled from his caucus every single Liberal member of the upper house and has declared there is no longer any such thing as a Liberal Senator.

Clear enough for you?

You act like anyone who gives credit where credit is due is a Liberal... mind you... I suppose that makes sense in your mind.
Afterall so many die hard Cons can't seem to acknowledge that their guy just slipped to last place on the senate issue.

And who exactly is dancing in the steets?
One or two guys mentioned that it swayed them but most...including myself have simply been objective enough to recognize a well played tactical move and give credit where it is due for that.

Mr Trudeau would have to do much more than this to gain my support as would Harper or Mulclair.
Please keep in mind that some of us do not cast our votes over single issues. Some of us take a broader view than what is spoon fed us.
Some of us see that as long as we allow party politicians to define us by our differences and as long as Canadians allow them to place an over-emphasis upon those differences... they will win and we all will continue to lose.

Liberal Tory...same old story.

Of course it is a parlor trick...in fact the affected senators have already announced that they will remain party loyal but that changes little.
But...its a very good parlor trick.
Optics is reality to most people and this will no doubt help the Liberals and see Harpers popularity drop even further unless he makes a bold move and fast.
Having already lost about a third of their popular support the Cons cannot afford to fall much further behind.

Personnaly I hope all of the big 3 parties tear themselves appart so that Canadians can have a democratic representative government for the first time in history. One made up of independants loyal only to their constituents and the nation.

A long shot?
Yes...but one worth hoping for and one that will never happen if voters keep hanging their hopes on the same old lies.

[pseelk]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

He forced the PM's hand.

Now... the Conservatives must at least follow suit or face criticism whenever their senatorial lap dogs come to heel for them or make a mess on the carpet.

No...I do not expect that the former Liberal Senators will change their leanings nor would I expect the Conservative Senators to but... the only way the PM can now LEAD on the senate issue is to take steps that do better than ape the Liberals.
IOW... the only way the PM can now be seen as more genuine about senate reform than his rival is... the only way he can LEAD on this issue will be to make changes that impact the whole Senate including his own pets.

Either that or risk an increased perception of being dis-ingenuous regarding senate reform period.

Whatever that is it will probably be done in haste and if the Conservatives are true to form it will be bad legislation.
In the past when they have done this they were able to take the position that they were (for instance) tough on crime leaving the opposition to point out that their new laws were often unconstitutional and the courts to sort it out.
Years pass and they manage to distance themselves from the problems created or at least benefit from peoples short attention spans.
They managed to capitalize that way a number of times but in this instance... it will not be so easy because the issue at hand will be constitutional reform itself and that will certainly result in more people focusing and for longer upon what is going on than something like the omnibus crime bill.

Trudeau just robbed both the NDP and the Conservatives of the initiative and now...they are both left to scap with each other for second place on this issue while he can now sit back and say that they did their part and have done all that they could within their power to give Canadians what they have demanded for years.

Now... what will the government elect or the official opposition do?
Stall?
Deny?
Pay lip service some more?
Or act?

Its a tough spot for Harper now... regardless of the fact that he honestly cannot just wave a magic wand and make sweeping changes... the perception among Canadians that the Conservatives have no intention of giving up any influence they might have in the senate...will grow.

Be honest.... it was very well played.
Probably one of the slickest political moves in Canada since the King Bing Affair.

I"m sure Trudeau thinks all Canadians are stupid and cant see this brilliant move for what it is ,Smoke and mirrors.Any fool can see these are still Liberal senators enjoying all the perks of the senate.He has done absolutely nothing.

[hal53]

I see...lies such as "the Liberals left a surplus behind" ?, who cares how they got it...right???...but they did... some days you surprise me....

[RandyBoBandy]

Added Mr. Harper: “I gather the change announced by the Liberal Leader today is that unelected Liberal senators will become unelected senators who happen to be Liberal.”

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by hal53

^^^^ is your sig line from personal experience???

No need to be a dick Hal.
I'm starting to get a bit tired of the personal slights.
An intelligent man...one with something to actually contribute to a discussion...would not have to resort to that.

You like Harper... I do not.
Nor do I like Mulclair or Trudeau.

In my mind that means that between you and I only one of us is seeing all of them and their parties for what they are.
The other is still blind to the truth about one party by his hatred of the others.

[deanmc]

Its all just smoke and mirrors. Hal is right. Did I just say that?

[RandyBoBandy]

Originally Posted by huntinstuff

What did he do????

He changed the name from Liberal senator to Independant senator.

So what?

Now when one of them screws up, they cant be labelled a Liberal

Do you think ANY of the senators will change their thinking now that they are Independants?

It was a move to make people think he actually did something.

He did nothing but ensure that there is never another "liberal" senator under investigation........ Smoke and mirrors

and this X2

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

No need to be a dick Hal.
I'm starting to get a bit tired of the personal slights.
An intelligent man...one with something to actually contribute to a discussion...would not have to resort to that.

You like Harper... I do not.
Nor do I like Mulclair or Trudeau.

In my mind that means that between you and I only one of us is seeing all of them and their parties for what they are.
The other is still blind to the truth about one party by his hatred of the others.

it was a simple question sir, no need to take offence, I am not and never have been a huge Harper fan, but those other 2 goofs scare the bejeesus out of me, so, as usual in our political environment , you (I) vote for the one that will do me the least damage, hope your Independent guy gets in and changes the entire political spectrum.....

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by pseelk

I"m sure Trudeau thinks all Canadians are stupid and cant see this brilliant move for what it is ,Smoke and mirrors.Any fool can see these are still Liberal senators enjoying all the perks of the senate.He has done absolutely nothing.

Sure he did, he replaced the word Liberal with the word Independent and if he gets elected he'll chose and appoint his own "Independent" Senators.......

How stoned do you have to be to think that a name change is going to change the Senator's allegiances?

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by pseelk

I"m sure Trudeau thinks all Canadians are stupid and cant see this brilliant move for what it is ,Smoke and mirrors.Any fool can see these are still Liberal senators enjoying all the perks of the senate.He has done absolutely nothing.

I disagree....cept for the stupid part.
Justin, Steve and whatisface all think that the population is made up of 2 legged bovines.

That said...

While he (JT) may have done nothing of any real substance... it will still be percieved as more than what the Conservatives have done WRT this issue.

A significant portion of the voting population will see this as the Liberals doing something (at least) and the Conservatives doing nothing at all.

The NDP are basically sidelined because most Canadians wish to fix the senate rather than get rid of it and risk even more runaway government tabling more bad legislation....with no mechanism in place to check that or at least slow it down.

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by blackpheasant

Maybe because Harper actually has a resume and has done a good job fiscally running the country...lots of chatter from the left but nothing out of the ordinary for Canadian politics, Its going to be tough to knock the Conservatives out of power there will be lots of good news coming out prior to the next election, things like 0 deficit, lower taxes lots a good stuff that Libs hate.

Also by the time the next election campaign starts the Conservatives will have a warehouse full of Juniors gaffs, he is golden for the conservatives, vote splitting between the dippers and Libs will surely seal the deal for our man Steve from Calgary...

So silly, Quebec will go back to the Liberals and Harper will be in opposition.......

They didn't like Iggy....the pretender....

[greylynx]

Ladies and gentlemen.

Lets us watch how the liberal media handles Justin's great decision in the next few days.

A little teaching session all by itself

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

So silly, Quebec will go back to the Liberals and Harper will be in opposition.......

What, and give up on Mulcair and the NDP-Q?

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

I disagree....cept for the stupid part.
Justin, Steve and whatisface all think that the population is made up of 2 legged bovines.

That said...

While he (JT) may have done nothing of any real substance... it will still be percieved as more than what the Conservatives have done WRT this issue.

A significant portion of the voting population will see this as the Liberals doing something (at least) and the Conservatives doing nothing at all.

The NDP are basically sidelined because most Canadians wish to fix the senate rather than get rid of it and risk even more runaway government tabling more bad legislation....with no mechanism in place to check that or at least slow it down.

so it goes from a "well played political move", to "nothing of real substance" in 3 posts???? guess it depends which way the wind is blowing? The point Pesky is...it means nothing,...it is window dressing, looks good for the sheeple on the surface, but "you can put lipstick on the pig"..... ( still a dumb saying, but it fits here) at the end of the day they are Independent Liberal Senators at the trough, as would be the Cons in the same situation, This should change.... elect them, local Gov't's appoint them, whatever...lots of good ideas about non-partisan ways to do it in earlier posts....

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by hal53

it was a simple question sir, no need to take offence, I am not and never have been a huge Harper fan, but those other 2 goofs scare the bejeesus out of me, so, as usual in our political environment , you (I) vote for the one that will do me the least damage, hope your Independent guy gets in and changes the entire political spectrum.....

Now who thinks people are stupid?
It was a personal slight Hal..the latest in a growing list of them...you know it and so does anyone who read that line.

If you wish to vote against rather than for or perhaps for the least of the 3 evils that you are used to deciding between that is your affair.

I choose to vote for something rather than take up with the least ugly the 3 little pigs.

The only real change in politics in Canada in the last 50 years is that it has become even more dirty and the politicians have become evenless honourable and accountable.
This has occured under Liberals and Conservatives and each government elect has been worse than the last.
It is a given that the NDP would be no different especially iof they managed to abolish the senate.

The rate at which our demoncracy is being adulterated by these clowns has accellerated significantly.... especially in the last few years.
There are a number of reasons for that but chief among them is the fact that the left vote is split and we have a Conservative majority that has been allowed to run unchecked producing a number of laws that have been patently unconstitutional. They have also ignored existing law and even the Charter of Rights. Further they have shut down government to suit political ends whether in the interest of Canadians or not.

I have always voted Conservative save for once and it was the right thing to do at that time.

But...I am now done with party politics because it corrupts those who participate and because parties serve themselves first before the people.
The problem in Canada is not Conservatives or Liberals...its the guys who pigeon hole us as one or the other then capitalize by driving wedges between so called Conservatives and Liberals so they can exploit us.

While we bicker over side issues and accuse each other of all sorts of stupidity and every imaginable depravity the elite in Ottawa have slowly begun to make us accountable to them and wiped their butts with our rights and freedoms.

There will never be accountability for politicians in this country as long as we allow the members of elitist parties to steer the direction of legislation.

The government is actually made up of all elected members and they are supposed to co=operate with one another on our behalf.
That does not happen when individual parliamentarians divide their loyalties saving the bulk for the party and the crumbs for the electorate.

All I can say to anyone who throws in with any of the major parties is that some slaves may learn to like the feel of their collars but... I do not and never will.

[HunterDave]

Ladies and Gentlemen! I introduce to you the.......Independent Liberal Senator Caucus.....Clap, clap, clap.

"Shortly after Mr. Trudeau announced that Liberal senators would no longer be a part of the party’s national caucus, senators emerged from a private meeting to declare that they still view themselves as Liberals. “We have agreed that we will style ourselves as the ‘Liberal Senate Caucus’ because we all share the values of the Liberal Party of Canada,” Mr. Cowan said. “We will remain proud members of the Liberal Party of Canada, we are supporters, strong supporters of Mr. Trudeau, we will continue to do everything we can to ensure that he becomes the prime minister.”

Some senators said they would continue to refer to themselves as independents, while others saw themselves as independent Liberals. Liberal Senate Whip Jim Munson said that while he and his colleagues were surprised by the news, he doesn’t expect much will change. “At the end of the day, we’re all still Liberals, right? We’re all still working for the party. We’ll still be out there working for the party.”"

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle16600794/

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by hal53

so it goes from a "well played political move", to "nothing of real substance" in 3 posts???? guess it depends which way the wind is blowing? The point Pesky is...it means nothing,...it is window dressing, looks good for the sheeple on the surface, but "you can put lipstick on the pig"..... ( still a dumb saying, but it fits here) at the end of the day they are Independent Liberal Senators at the trough, as would be the Cons in the same situation, This should change.... elect them, local Gov't's appoint them, whatever...lots of good ideas about non-partisan ways to do it in earlier posts....

It was a well played political move.
It was also of little real substance as are most political moves, promises and manoverings.

I see no conflict in those statements.

The Omnibus Bill was a well played political move in many ways as well.

It gave the impression that they were tough on crime and that they were doing something about it while in fact it was actually quite inept and largely window dressing.
many of the changes contained in that bill will rightly not survive a constitiutional challenge but thats Ok because they secured some votes in the short termn and by the time these things run through the courts... it will be far behind those responsible and if not... they will blame the courts....the opposition etc.

Same with getting rid of the LGR.

Sure...the LGR is gone but we immediatly saw a number of weapons upgraded and now we have back door registries and an RCMP that has unprecedented powers of search and siezure that did not exist before.
We have also seen the RCMP break the law WRT firearms with inpunity.

But...the registry is gone.
Big deal... we are in no better position now than before.

The LGR...in fact the whole Firearms Act is uncoonstitutional because it effectively makes every firearms owner criminally suspect when no crime has been committed and because of how it was passed.

There is at this time a challenge highlighting that.

Now... if the Conservbatives were really interested in making gun owners happy... why would they have not repealed the whole Act on that basis?
Why would they allow CFO's and the RCMP to run amuck?

Why would they actually extend their right to pry into the lives of all Canadians even more than they do?
Why would they co-operate with the US doing the same thing?

The fact is that like every other government that we have had over the last few decades... they threw some change on the street and when we bent over to grab it like a bunch of suckers.... they stole our wallets and kissed our wives.

And thanks for yet another slight..Hal-itosis.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

Now who thinks people are stupid?
It was a personal slight Hal..the latest in a growing list of them...you know it and so does anyone who read that line.

If you wish to vote against rather than for or perhaps for the least of the 3 evils that you are used to deciding between that is your affair.

I choose to vote for something rather than take up with the least ugly the 3 little pigs.

The only real change in politics in Canada in the last 50 years is that it has become even more dirty and the politicians have become evenless honourable and accountable.
This has occured under Liberals and Conservatives and each government elect has been worse than the last.
It is a given that the NDP would be no different especially iof they managed to abolish the senate.

The rate at which our demoncracy is being adulterated by these clowns has accellerated significantly.... especially in the last few years.
There are a number of reasons for that but chief among them is the fact that the left vote is split and we have a Conservative majority that has been allowed to run unchecked producing a number of laws that have been patently unconstitutional. They have also ignored existing law and even the Charter of Rights. Further they have shut down government to suit political ends whether in the interest of Canadians or not.

I have always voted Conservative save for once and it was the right thing to do at that time.

But...I am now done with party politics because it corrupts those who participate and because parties serve themselves first before the people.
The problem in Canada is not Conservatives or Liberals...its the guys who pigeon hole us as one or the other then capitalize by driving wedges between so called Conservatives and Liberals so they can exploit us.

While we bicker over side issues and accuse each other of all sorts of stupidity and every imaginable depravity the elite in Ottawa have slowly begun to make us accountable to them and wiped their butts with our rights and freedoms.

There will never be accountability for politicians in this country as long as we allow the members of elitist parties to steer the direction of legislation.

The government is actually made up of all elected members and they are supposed to co=operate with one another on our behalf.
That does not happen when individual parliamentarians divide their loyalties saving the bulk for the party and the crumbs for the electorate.

All I can say to anyone who throws in with any of the major parties is that some slaves may learn to like the feel of their collars but... I do not and never will.

please advise 3 years after the next election how your vote changed the face of Canadian politics....good night... Will leave you with a quote from Cowboy Flett..."it's easy to sit in the stands and play the game with a bag of popcorn in your hand"...

[whammy]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

So silly, Quebec will go back to the Liberals and Harper will be in opposition.......

They didn't like Iggy....the pretender....

ding ding ding!!! We have a winner! Anyone who thinks young Trudeau is going to have a problem booting Harper is lying to themselves.

[whammy]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Ladies and Gentlemen! I introduce to you the.......Independent Liberal Senator Caucus.....Clap, clap, clap.

"Shortly after Mr. Trudeau announced that Liberal senators would no longer be a part of the party’s national caucus, senators emerged from a private meeting to declare that they still view themselves as Liberals. “We have agreed that we will style ourselves as the ‘Liberal Senate Caucus’ because we all share the values of the Liberal Party of Canada,” Mr. Cowan said. “We will remain proud members of the Liberal Party of Canada, we are supporters, strong supporters of Mr. Trudeau, we will continue to do everything we can to ensure that he becomes the prime minister.”

Some senators said they would continue to refer to themselves as independents, while others saw themselves as independent Liberals. Liberal Senate Whip Jim Munson said that while he and his colleagues were surprised by the news, he doesn’t expect much will change. “At the end of the day, we’re all still Liberals, right? We’re all still working for the party. We’ll still be out there working for the party.”"

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle16600794/

Nobody is surprised by this...

[marxman]

i dont trust a loose cannon like trudeau surely his betters told him the ladies night thing was a poor idea and would make him look like a lightweight. does this stunt mean anything i dont really know and who is he listening to the guy is a flake

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

It was a well played political move.
It was also of little real substance as are most political moves, promises and manoverings.

I see no conflict in those statements.

The Omnibus Bill was a well played political move in many ways as well.

It gave the impression that they were tough on crime and that they were doing something about it while in fact it was actually quite inept and largely window dressing.
many of the changes contained in that bill will rightly not survive a constitiutional challenge but thats Ok because they secured some votes in the short termn and by the time these things run through the courts... it will be far behind those responsible and if not... they will blame the courts....the opposition etc.

Same with getting rid of the LGR.

Sure...the LGR is gone but we immediatly saw a number of weapons upgraded and now we have back door registries and an RCMP that has unprecedented powers of search and siezure that did not exist before.
We have also seen the RCMP break the law WRT firearms with inpunity.

But...the registry is gone.
Big deal... we are in no better position now than before.

The LGR...in fact the whole Firearms Act is uncoonstitutional because it effectively makes every firearms owner criminally suspect when no crime has been committed and because of how it was passed.

There is at this time a challenge highlighting that.

Now... if the Conservbatives were really interested in making gun owners happy... why would they have not repealed the whole Act on that basis?
Why would they allow CFO's and the RCMP to run amuck?

Why would they actually extend their right to pry into the lives of all Canadians even more than they do?
Why would they co-operate with the US doing the same thing?

The fact is that like every other government that we have had over the last few decades... they threw some change on the street and when we bent over to grab it like a bunch of suckers.... they stole our wallets and kissed our wives.

And thanks for yet another slight..Hal-itosis.

guess I will change my user name now Pesky, thanks for the idea,, you are funny, ...in a sad way....

[From The Hip]

I wont bother to quote anybody nor will I point out peoples basic political leanings as I see them.

All I can say is the purge of "Liberals" from the Senate done by the Liberal Party today is just a bunch of political grandstanding and nothing more.Those expelled senators views/opinions/politics have not changed between last night and this morning.Their political tact is the same and it wont change tomorrow or next week of even a year from now.Those senators who were ALL appointed through the patronage system are Liberals and they will tow the party line all the way through thick and thin.This of course rings true with regards to Conservative senators who were also granted patronage appointments to the Senate with the main idea of "shut your mouth and vote the way the party whip tells you to vote"

Lots of BLAH BLAH BLAH today but no substance at all in the grand scheme of things from JT.Those senators will show up for what they consider work tomorrow and get paid and at the same time scoff down lunch in the Parliament dining room on exotic food like seal meat for pennies on the dollar whilst many Canadians shall subsist on kraft dinner.


Just another BS sideshow that does not take into account the position of the average Canadian.....but it is good for the leftist media to pounce on.

FTH

[hal53]

^^^ good post....

[pseelk]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

I disagree....cept for the stupid part.
Justin, Steve and whatisface all think that the population is made up of 2 legged bovines.

That said...

While he (JT) may have done nothing of any real substance... it will still be percieved as more than what the Conservatives have done WRT this issue.

A significant portion of the voting population will see this as the Liberals doing something (at least) and the Conservatives doing nothing at all.

The NDP are basically sidelined because most Canadians wish to fix the senate rather than get rid of it and risk even more runaway government tabling more bad legislation....with no mechanism in place to check that or at least slow it down.

Except for the fact that most Canadians know that Harper is waiting for the Supreme court to tell him what can be done as far as the Constituion is concerned ,to reform the senate.Not like he''s sitting around doing nothing.

[From The Hip]

Originally Posted by hal53

^^^ good post....

It is a good post and it is the *****!NG truth.Sadly enough the actual truth and the political manouvers behind it will escape the average Canadian and they will be spoon fed the BS like a baby eating apple sauce.

FTH

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by hal53

I see...lies such as "the Liberals left a surplus behind" ?, who cares how they got it...right???...but they did... some days you surprise me....

Oh for the love of Pete...

Of course I care how they got it.... but its not like Mulroony left any working capital behind after he did what he was trained to do best... tear things down and liquidate them.
Or have you forgotten what that fiscally responsible Conservative did to our international credit rating?

He damn near bankrupted the nation but everyone conveniently forgets to mention the Mulroony years when touting Conservative superiority don't they?
Yup..everyone forgets that after Mulrooney split leaving Campbell holding the bag the Federal Conservatives were left with less seats than a Toronto taxoi cab....and why.
Or do we want to try to blame that on his scapegoat? Or was that the Liberals fault as well?

The reality is Mulrooney buggered us and good...worse than any any other PM ever did and the Liberals built it up again by taxing the hell out of us.
Harper inherited a fairly healthy ecconomy that probably would have been far less healthy had he had his way while in opposition.

And he knows it...otherwise why would he have not gone ahead with all the de-regulation he was so hot for only a short time before becoming PM...especially now that he has a majority?

Get it?

Its a game and as long as people have short selective memories we lose and the parties win.

Guys on here go on and on about this party and that party and if taken at face value one might wonder why anyone would vote for anyone but the Conservatives ever but the reality is that there are good reasons to not vote for either party because in the end neither has really done better by Canadians over the long haul.
Go to a Liberal forum and witness Liberals acting exactly like so many dedicated Conservatives do here and with arguments that have about the same amount of credability and basis in fact.