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12-02-2012, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie
Yeah....
I am a liberal.
Some times you talk out of your ass.
More later as I have to go hand out flowers at the Airport and work on my P.E.T memorial.
Fact is you couldn't Handel being a teacher. You weren't good enough.
Jamie
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Stay classy!!
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12-02-2012, 12:56 PM
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Location: Medicine Hat
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Redford should resign. Seems like there is a new scandal every day!
The RED Queen has created her own "lake of fire" this time ..... BURN BABY BURN........lol
__________________
Trades I would interested in:
- Sightron rifle scopes, 4.5x14x42mm or 4x16x42mm
especially! with the HHR reticle. (no duplex pls.)
- older 6x fixed scopes with fine X or target dot.
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12-02-2012, 12:57 PM
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Location: Calgary
Posts: 11,576
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky7
Yup, that's how it goes when you point out a liberal is wrong. First, the label gun. Next, the insults. That's why it's so hard to pry away their entitlements.
ps: I can spell, though.
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With all due respect, Rocky........
Stuff it!
I personally know Jamie and his family. To slander them with the 'liberal' slur is more than just wrong. It's Goddammed ignorant!!! If the world had more teachers like his lovely wife then we'd be saying that they're underpaid.
An apology is owed. Simple as that.
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12-02-2012, 01:07 PM
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When it comes to teachers wages, I think the time factor has to be really looked at.....because I doubt the claims of how much they really do IN YEAR TOTAL....sure they may have longer days, grading, etc, but let's look at a few things.
Joe Aversge white collar worker w university, and 5yrs on the job.
Lets ignore sick days. So 52wk less 4wks vacation and 12stats = 228days X 8hrs results in 1824hours of regular work. And don't forget that in many of these jobs, your on salary so plenty of overtime is expected (I've work 7days 12hour days for months many a year....50hr most others) But that extra work aside.
So a teacher get 2 months off in summer (9wks) 2wks at Christmas, 1 week at Easter, 12 or so PD days, and let's say only 4 Stats. So that's roughly 184 day and let's say it's really a 8hr day....that's 1472hours.
So if the teacher needs to match the regular hours that joe Average white collar does.....1824hr / 184days = 10hrs per day, or 50hrs per normal work week.
So I'm sure they do lots after, but they are not that hard done by, when you compare hrs to hrs (apples to apples) And lets not forget that Joe Average also does lots of extra hours....but the teachers time off definitely compensates them for that extra time. And it's a union job,......Since when did a union allow unpaid work...
Last edited by BlackHeart; 12-02-2012 at 01:19 PM.
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12-02-2012, 01:29 PM
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Those are all good points, BH. But I think the single most important thing we need is accountability. What would help that? Here's my ideas:
1. Allow parents to pick their schools. Not more local monopolies for schools so that they get their funding no matter what. Crappy schools fail and go out of business. Good ones, with good staff good leadership and good results, expand.
2. Merit pay. Good teachers are worth more than duds. Simple as that. It's the way the rest of the world works and it's the way their world should work, too. Teachers unions and their useful idiots come up with an assortment of excuses, labels and nightmare scenarios to justify them being paid more just because they didn't die and to justify them keeping their jobs as long as they dance the P.C. Jig. End all that.
You'd then see more good young teachers staying on the job, more satisfaction and recognition for the good ones that are there.
On the other hand, Teachers' Union power would drop and the ability of government to manipulate, bribe and generally BS all of us to get votes would also drop.
It's easy to see how those priorities sort out at the present time.
__________________
"If everything isn't black and white, I say, 'Why the hell not?'" - J.W.
God made man. Sam Colt made them equal.
Make Alberta a better place. Have your liberal spayed or neutered.
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12-02-2012, 01:42 PM
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I like the voucher system. Let me take it to the best and ignore the rest.
We homeschooled our three children. Results in a much better education and better results. Unfortunately my tax dollars still went to the local schools and we got relatively nothing.
The ATA has been trying to take that parental choice away from parents. Remember it's a UNION! And they don't tolerate competition well....want a monopoly and no options. Makes things nice and secure for their members. And your right ....less accountable for results.
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12-02-2012, 01:49 PM
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How come there are never any teachers defending themselves , Always the husband, Just wondering.
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12-02-2012, 01:51 PM
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You forgot 3. Accountability
3. Standard School testing yearly for each grade - let's make sure that the kids who move to the next grade have the knowledge, otherwise they fail and repeat. ( THIS NO ZERO POLICY, is about the schools shedding accountability - nothing to do with teaching).
.... would help proactive parents research the market, and get their kids in the best schools - personally we can't wait for school results to get published yearly in the herald (although a little general, it's a start - (would like results by grade)) - Thanks Ralph !
TBD
Last edited by TBD; 12-02-2012 at 02:08 PM.
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12-02-2012, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonny42
How come there are never any teachers defending themselves , Always the husband, Just wondering.
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The teachers cannot argue logically, therefore they have to have a proxy!!!!
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12-02-2012, 02:20 PM
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Gone Hunting
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Location: Between Bodo and a hard place
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Or they are busy marking papers or doing lesson plans or are simply tired of babysitting all week and want the weekend off. 
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I'm not lying!!! You are just experiencing it differently. 
It isn't a question of who will allow me, but who will stop me.. Ayn Rand
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12-02-2012, 02:22 PM
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Location: East Central Alberta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonny42
How come there are never any teachers defending themselves , Always the husband, Just wondering.
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I was a "teacher" for 32+ years....30 of which I spent designated Principal. I don't defend everything teachers do, and I don't take the time to respond every time a "has been" teacher who couldn't make the grade, or former student that didn't "pass" runs down the occupation. Some complainers will not be happy unless they are complaining so why rain on their parade with facts or experience, as that has no chance of gaining their ear. Bottom line is that most workers. regardless of their occupation, feels they are doing an important job...and they are right. Every job contributes to the community regardless of how important it appears to be... Our collective prosperity depends on every job, period. Those who whine the most about the "public purse", pay litttle heed to the fact that they drive on public roads, use public health care, public libraries...etc. For some, to feel important, it is neccessary to run another down. Just human nature.
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12-02-2012, 02:24 PM
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There's a lot of good ideas here. It's good to hear it.
What we CAN do in the short term is start talking. Say what you think and mean what you say. Talk to teachers and talk to their principals. Talk to friends and other parents. I think you'll find that a heckuva lot of people think just like we do, including a goodly number of teachers.
It doesn't always work. I was told at my kids' last school by the principal not to talk to teacher "X" any more. I guess I hurt the poor darling's feelings at a P-T meeting when I told her that I expected her to teach and, next time, to let me know when my daughter was struggling with something and not tell me after the fact. I also expected her to send some extra work home and not tell me again that I should to the local Teacher's Store and buy some materials so that I could do the teaching at home. I told her that was her job. I would see that work sent home was done, but it was her job to send the stuff home; it was not my job to guess at it or figure out what knowledge or skills were short. Furthermore, since her shelves were full of workbooks and the school owned a photocopier, I did not see the sense in me having to buy it.
I did not raise my voice and I did not curse. None of that sounded radical to me. Apparently, it was. I was supposed to sit there and nod my head respectfully, I guess.
My kids now attend a different school and are doing much better. They have teachers and the school has a principal that is not a shop steward. We have to drive them there every day because the bus will only take them to the dud school. We live in that school's "area", you see. 
I really don't think any of this is rocket science. Most parents already know all they need to know to give directions to their school. The problem is that many parents get intimidated by 3-syllable words and a squinty-eyed reaction....and many teachers/principals know it.
__________________
"If everything isn't black and white, I say, 'Why the hell not?'" - J.W.
God made man. Sam Colt made them equal.
Make Alberta a better place. Have your liberal spayed or neutered.
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12-02-2012, 02:26 PM
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Location: East Central Alberta
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OK Rocky -- time to lay out your plan...lay out the essentials of your merit pay scheme...not just the "motherhood" concept . I need to be convinced you have a workable plan...not something that can not be enforced.
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12-02-2012, 02:57 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: calgary, Alberta
Posts: 1,881
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 260 Rem
I don't defend everything teachers do, and I don't take the time to respond every time a "has been" teacher who couldn't make the grade, or former student that didn't "pass" runs down the occupation.
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Nice stereotypes, better to diminish all the good ideas put forward here with insult to a persons character, then explain why our education system seems to perform worse and worse each year and gets more expensive - in comparision to other countries.
I'm a university grad and I'd argue better educated then yourself.
Biggest complaint I have with the ED system in Canada, it's being ruined by your union. Less work for more PAY get's obvious in any system sooner or later (socialism failed bud) and I think it's becoming apparent in your world now !
TBD
P.S. Do you understand how the 3 simple rules above can help stop the slide ....
If you've become unflexible in your views over the years - I'll EXPLAIN them for ya .... it's really quite simple.
1) Let the AB gov't Give parents CHOICE to chose their school (incl private & chartered) and divert their portion of TAX dollars to support it. ( THIS WILL HELP IDENTIFY SCHOOLS THAT ARE POORLY RUN SO THAT THEY CAN BE REVIEWED & IMPROVED OR CLOSED)
2) Performance based PAY (I know this is a foreign concept to a teachers union guy - but it will actually help keep your talent and again IDENTIFY employees who need to be addressed.)
3) Testing - here's the accountability thing, give the PUBLIC a metric so that they can be informed on how the education system is performing, after all WE'RE PAYING FOR IT .... AND ABOLISH THIS NO ZERO POLICY CRAP !!
MAKE SENSE ?
Last edited by TBD; 12-02-2012 at 03:20 PM.
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12-02-2012, 03:34 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBD
Nice stereotypes, better to diminish all the good ideas put forward here with insult to a persons character, then explain why our education system seems to perform worse and worse each year and gets more expensive - in comparision to other countries.
I'm a university grad and I'd argue better educated then yourself.
Biggest complaint I have with the ED system in Canada, it's being ruined by your union. Less work for more PAY get's obvious in any system sooner or later (socialism failed bud) and I think it's becoming apparent in your world now !
TBD
P.S. Do you understand how the 3 simple rules above can help stop the slide ....
If you've become unflexible in your views over the years - I'll EXPLAIN them for ya .... it's really quite simple.
1) Give parents CHOICE to chose their school and divert TAX dollars to support it. ( THIS WILL HELP IDENTIFY SCHOOLS THAT ARE POORLY RUN SO THAT THEY CAN BE REVIEWED & IMPROVED OR CLOSED)
2) Performance based PAY (I know this is a foreign concept to a teachers union guy - but it will actually help keep your talent and again IDENTIFY employees who need to be addressed.)
3) Testing - here's the accountability thing, give the PUBLIC a metric so that they can be informed on how the education system is performing, after all WE'RE PAYING FOR IT ....
MAKE SENSE ?
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Um no.
Since testing was your contribution, lets deal with it. This year my students will write the Canadian Achievement Exam where the results will be compared to the rest of Canada and Alberta and results will be sent home to parents. They will write 4 Prov Achievement exams, results will be compared to the rest of the province and my school division and the results will be sent home to parents. I will be asked to write a report accounting for strengths and weaknesses of my students in this exam. Further, my class results for last year were sent home to every parent in the school, and they are on the internet too for the last 5 years.
Further to that, my students will write 17 supplied exams over the course of the year (5 are already done) and my results will be compared to the rest of the school division and they will also write 4 final exams that are supplied and results will be compared to the rest of the school division.
Most parents I know of actively involved, wonder why their kids are being tested so much. In fact,it is one of the chief complaints about the Alberta system.
So what are you talking about?
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12-02-2012, 03:42 PM
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Location: calgary, Alberta
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Great !
I think you may have misunderstood, I didn't mean general kids school tests ....
Geez !
I mean't TESTING SCHOOLS
anyways I have (2) questions ...
In what school year(s) are the achievement / provincial results done ?
and Are THESE results compared with other COUNTRIES ? ( look'n for trends graphs let's go back two decades and compare to other G7 countries (and the EMERGING ECONOMIES) moving forward ... how are we doing ? - you should KNOW this .... )
Last edited by TBD; 12-02-2012 at 04:12 PM.
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12-02-2012, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBD
Two questions ...
In what school year(s) is this done ?
Are these results compared with other COUNTRIES ?
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I teach jr high and you really should do some research. Alberta not only has the best results in Canada but does really well internationally.
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12-02-2012, 03:52 PM
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I thought this thread was about our corrupt premier?
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12-02-2012, 03:55 PM
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Gone Hunting
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Lougheed,Ab.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeGuy
I thought this thread was about our corrupt premier?
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who????...is she a teacher??.....
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The future ain't what it used to be - Yogi Berra
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12-02-2012, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hal53
who????...is she a teacher??.....
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Not sure about the teacher part, Hal, but I sure am learning alot. Trigonometry was less painful though...
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12-02-2012, 04:05 PM
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Gone Hunting
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Lougheed,Ab.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeGuy
Not sure about the teacher part, Hal, but I sure am learning alot. Trigonometry was less painful though...
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too bad you're young enough that u missed Latin, but back to the original content, the Queen has got to go, have 2 e-mails into my MLA, we shall see....
asked him nicely in the 2nd one not to pass me off to a flunky again, as he is very good at...
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The future ain't what it used to be - Yogi Berra
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12-02-2012, 04:14 PM
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Location: Calgary
Posts: 11,576
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hal53
too bad you're young enough that u missed Latin, but back to the original content, the Queen has got to go, have 2 e-mails into my MLA, we shall see....
asked him nicely in the 2nd one not to pass me off to a flunky again, as he is very good at...
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Oh I've done the latin thing, Hal. Too bad yer old enough to have helped invent it though! 
The queen will stay and I hope she does. Consider who our deputy premier is. Replacing a flat tire will not change the fact that our great province is being driven by a '74 Pinto.
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12-02-2012, 04:17 PM
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Gone Hunting
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Lougheed,Ab.
Posts: 12,736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeGuy
Oh I've done the latin thing, Hal. Too bad yer old enough to have helped invent it though!
The queen will stay and I hope she does. Consider who our deputy premier is. Replacing a flat tire will not change the fact that our great province is being driven by a '74 Pinto. |
ooohhh!!!...zing!!!!!!
anyway Thomas the idiot would only be in place until they had a leadership convention, ...and the old boys running the show would have him on a very short lease...
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The future ain't what it used to be - Yogi Berra
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12-02-2012, 04:26 PM
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Location: Calgary
Posts: 11,576
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hal53
ooohhh!!!...zing!!!!!!
anyway Thomas the idiot would only be in place until they had a leadership convention, ...and the old boys running the show would have him on a very short lease...
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Problem is that those holding the leash seem no more competent than the animal on the end of it.
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12-02-2012, 06:31 PM
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oh here we go again
Ohh... hunting season is over... gonna try and wade in here.
I've been a full time carpenter (mostly framing and residential work) and worked in retail for 12 years. Then I got into the teaching field.... I think I'm pretty well positioned to say that the teaching profession is just about as hard as those jobs AND you do wind up putting in about the same amount of time for the compensation. The carpentry and retail gigs don't follow you home after work... nor do they regulate you life in your community.... that part of teaching really sucks.... always gotta be 'Mr. So and So' and behave according to some archaic prescribed notion of what a teacher should be like... oi..
There is a difference in benifits.
GreyLynx, you got some serious teacher issues, get over it, and get accurate facts about what average teacher do and work. You are flat out wrong and are really giving a masters course on stat/fact smudging....
I'd say 50h/week is a really solid average... I've toned down my 'mandatory volunteering' these days, I'm not going to do travel club or year book, I'll just coach and run soccer for 3 nights a week plus 3 weekend tournies from May to June.
A very regular day has me at school a 7AM... I leave between 4 and 4:30. 198 manated days in the school.... plus 15 days 'of my own' to get crap done/ready.You do the math.
We must spend 199 days in the school working as mandated by my Board. Many of us fnd that funny... cause that was what was happening anyways... but we were doing it on our 'holidays'.
Usually during the summer I spend 10 days marking diplomas or the province or helping develop exams for the department.
I HAVE to come in or a couple of days during xmas or easter. You can't do your job without doing this, its as simple as that. You try and keep a bunch of sheltered, spoiled teens 'engaged' for 4 80 minute blocks.... coloring between the lines ain't gonna do it, not when they all have iphones and the new COD just came out... you gotta compete with that!
Gonna be a bit if a brag here... but I teach both jr and sr high. My kids have always ranked in the top 10-20% of academic achievement exams in the province... thats been ongoing for 14 years now. If your gonna pay me the public $... I have a moral obligation to use my tax $$ as best as I possibly can.
I have only had 4 kids fail their exams in that time (now you can accuse me of 'teaching to the test' right...?)
Are their bad apples?? You bet! Is there already a mechanism to create accountable teachers... you double bet! Those of you that are on here wanking about how you can't get quality kids really are stunned...... you can become a teacher's worst nightmare soooo easily its not funny. It takes nothing to get the system to smarten up and ENSURE your kids are being taught the curricullum effectively. MAKE A PHONE CALL OR MOVE YOUR KID...... better yet... spend a day in your kids class videotaping the day.
You'll get results.... mark my words. Those that arenot simply need to grab a brain and learn the game... its a pretty easy one.
Sneeze, instead of watching youtubes about Hayak, try to read the curriculum for gr.5 and go have a chat with said teacher and bring a Trustee in tow. You need to carry a big stick. You'll get results.
There are some real bad teachers out there, and yes... its not super easy to get them out of there.... but. there's no way you can blame teachers for our society spitting out a bunch of uninspired Derps......... I will ALWAYS maintain (based on personal and professional experience) that PARENTS ARE THE SINGLE BIGGEST FACTOR IN DEVELOPING A CHILD. Period.
Teachers can screw up a kid? Gimme a break... we are barely a popcorn fart of influence on children.... we are only a 'big impact' on the kids that LET us.
We need to license childbirth.... really. I need to be careful here but I've seen countless kids that are 'in need of a push' to achieve and ohh.. they have SUCH potential.... and their helicopter parents come tramping in to the 'rescue', and this kids learns fine art of entitlement....
This is a long read... but BOY is it bang on
http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/06/living...nts/index.html
Rocky... too bad you bailed from the profession. I hate the red tape... but its no different than trying to get stuff built/done in a housing development run by one of the biggies.... This profession is desparate for good people.... but the best leave... I've seen it time and time again... too much work... too much grief... too little compensation. Tragic!
Teachers are paid just fine. The job's hard. We are super easy targets cause 'everyone's been there.... gimme a break!
So much has changed in the last 5-8 years..... it has given parents WAY more ability to hold teachers accountable... and I for one applaud it.
I'd LOVE merit pay... except this has been tried in the US.... and this is proven to show that teachers will wind up being 'test teaching people' and the system will fudge the marks to get the bonus... much like in the private world (and I've seen plenty of that in the oil patch, the home biluding industry, and in retail).
Thanks for your support 
bd
__________________
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12-02-2012, 06:34 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,544
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBD
I think you may have misunderstood, I didn't mean general kids school tests ....
Geez !
I mean't TESTING SCHOOLS
anyways I have (2) questions ...
In what school year(s) are the achievement / provincial results done ?
and Are THESE results compared with other COUNTRIES ? ( look'n for trends graphs let's go back two decades and compare to other G7 countries (and the EMERGING ECONOMIES) moving forward ... how are we doing ? - you should KNOW this .... )
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Did you not write this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBD
"3. Standard School testing yearly for each grade - let's make sure that the kids who move to the next grade have the knowledge, otherwise they fail and repeat. ( THIS NO ZERO POLICY, is about the schools shedding accountability - nothing to do with teaching).
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12-02-2012, 06:48 PM
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So to clarify Bessiedog, are you saying you think merit pay would be based on simple testing of kids only?
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12-02-2012, 06:57 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: calgary, Alberta
Posts: 1,881
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in response to REM260 I wrote this ....
3) Testing - here's the accountability thing, give the PUBLIC a metric so that they can be informed on how the education system is performing, after all WE'RE PAYING FOR IT ....
what tak'n me outta context - you guys .....
unbelievable !
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12-02-2012, 06:58 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 11,576
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Bessie, that's one of the best posts I've ever read on here. You can teach my kids any day. Thanks for the perspective.
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12-02-2012, 07:03 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,544
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBD
3) Testing - here's the accountability thing, give the PUBLIC a metric so that they can be informed on how the education system is performing, after all WE'RE PAYING FOR IT ....
what tak'n me outta context - you guys .....
unbelievable !
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In response to Rem 260, you abridged 3 previous points. Not, out of context
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