Man shocked by arrest after daughter draws picture of gun at school

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

Yes you are correct, but after listening to the interviews of the police and CAS, I can say that there is definitely room for some punishment, and I would lean heavily towards the CAS for failing to do an interview with the father before calling the police.

I half-expect CAS workers to be juvenile dough-heads, whether in ON or anywhere else, particularly on the topic of guns. We should expect, and require, more from LE. I'm sure many of them do and that is why we should help.

[rugatika]

There is absolutely no reason why any of these police officers should still be employed...including the chief. I can partially understand teachers and social services types being ignorant, but the police should be better than that.

Skid them. This goes beyond a "mistake" or being "overly cautious". This is gross negligence, complete abuse of power, and constitutional rights. Plain and simple. And thank God Sansone has lawyered up. I'm hoping it's some evil genius lawyer that saw a chance to score a HUGE settlement. And I mean American settlement type of HUGE.

I changed my mind...the teachers and social services types should all be skidded as well. Anyone that stupid should most definitely NOT be allowed to be interacting with other people in society let alone children. Frankly, exhibitions of such gross stupidity should exclude them all from participating in voting in future elections as well.


Oh and that Luisa D'Amato that wrote the fluff piece on better safe than sorry. Get a grip. It's sheeple like her that contribute to the fall of civilization. Where's Darwin when you need him??


Ezra nailed it when he repeatedly called the chief a MORON. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moron_(psychology)

[slivers86]

Originally Posted by twofifty

Govt. institutions that blatantly abuse their power should be fully liable for the multiple harm they cause innocent parties:

- loss of reputation.
- humiliation.
- anxiety.
- possible loss of employment as fellow is a school social worker.
- unneeded overnight confinement.
- permission for an illegal search fraudulently obtained under coercion.
- freaking out his kids/wife and possibly causing them psychological damage.

Of course, some institutions have come to rely on the fact that most working folk do not have the monetary resources to seek a compensatory award in court. Their reaction is 'sorry, you're free to go now'. Geez, thanks, is about all we can say.

If institutions had to pay damages for their worse screw ups, there would be fewer stories such as these.

Or maybe it'd be cheaper to fabricate the evidence and preserve one's career. The justice/police systems have lost much of their credibility these past few years.

all good reasons for a class lawsuit against that PD. hopefully a good lawyer gets on that will work the case for a %cut at the end of it... there is no cause in this, its not against the law to have a firearm in your house, nor is it against the law to teach children at a young age about guns and how to responsibly use them. I shot a .22 when I was 6 years old, and knew the consequences of misuse. The first thing I shot was a watermelon - it taught me what a .22 could do to a human if it hit them. I grew up with respect for firearms, and we drew pictures of ak47's in class all the time in school, and pistols, shotguns... we never got in trouble...

the police departments, gustapo/principals, and child welfare in this situation should hang their heads in shame.

[rugatika]

http://firearmslaw.ca/about-solomon/

Here's his lawyer. A lawyer that specializes in firearms law and was on the Ezra Levant show regarding this matter. This just got good.

h/t smalldeadanimals.com

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by Rod1960

Interview of Torigian and Alison Scott: http://www.570news.com/listen/listen...-gun-at-school

Wow, no remorse at all. That guy can thank his lucky stars he didn't have a gun in the house, even if stored properly, based on that I'd say he would have been toast.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Wow, no remorse at all. That guy can thank his lucky stars he didn't have a gun in the house, even if stored properly, based on that I'd say he would have been toast.

Just listened to that interview. That chief was totally OK with violating a Canadian citizens rights. Sounded like he would gladly do it again, and the only remorse he had was that he is getting called out on it. Scary.

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Just listened to that interview. That chief was totally OK with violating a Canadian citizens rights. Sounded like he would gladly do it again, and the only remorse he had was that he is getting called out on it. Scary.

He stands behind the action because it was related to a "child's safety", but at least he did admit that there were some things done wrong. Which he didn't elaborate on. The CAS boss on the other hand was totally remorseless, and gave no indication that they would ever change their course of action in the future. Now that is scarey.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

He stands behind the action because it was related to a "child's safety", but at least he did admit that there were some things done wrong. Which he didn't elaborate on. The CAS boss on the other hand was totally remorseless, and gave no indication that they would ever change their course of action in the future. Now that is scarey.

With all due respect...I think he is hiding behind the child safety line. As to his "mistakes". Sorry. A mistake is when you forget to lock your door. These guys forced a man being strip searched to sign a permission form to search his house without a warrant. THAT is not a MISTAKE. These police officers need to be fired, sued, and honestly I think they should be jailed for their actions. Not sure if there is any law they broke...whether unlawful confinement could be used or not...I doubt it. Too bad.

And honestly, I quit listening as soon as that soulless bureaucrat started speaking. I couldn't handle her condescending, tone of righteous indignation that she had to answer for her actions. Just another waste of skin living off of my tax dollars.

[KegRiver]

Something the apologists seem to ignore.

There is a principal that the courts hold and which applies here.
The courts hold that ignorance of the law is no excuse. The principal behind this is that any reasonable person SHOULD know, the law in this case.

In the case we are discussing, any reasonable person SHOULD know that a drawing made by a child can not be taken as evidence of anything, unless there is collaborative evidence.
Moreover, from what we are told there was nothing in the drawing that would imply or suggest that this child or any other, had access to this gun or any other.

I hold that all employees of the school, Social Services and the Police for acted unreasonably and irresponsibly.
If we ignore this, we are in effect, supporting such irresponsible behaviour.
By doing nothing or saying nothing, or worse yet, by siding with those who perpetrated this atrocity, we invite further abuses of this nature.
Abuses we may well be the victim of in the future.

I think severe measures need to be taken to ensure that this does not happen again. Not for the sake of retribution. But for the good of society.

[BeeGuy]

The signed permission form likely wouldn't stand up in court as the innocent man was under considerable duress.

As in, "We are going to ruin your life and take your child" duress.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

The signed permission form likely wouldn't stand up in court as the innocent man was under considerable duress.

As in, "We are going to ruin your life and take your child" duress.

Exactly. And the police damned well knew it when they basically forced him to sign it. Several officers standing around you when you are being strip searched for something you are not fully aware of would be super intimidating I imagine. I'm sure we all like to think in the same situtation we would tell the police to take a flying leap, but I'm sure the duress he was under was very significant. This is another black eye in a too rapidly growing series of black eyes on the police forces of Canada. I agree with Keg that significant and harsh actions need to be taken immediately to curb these abuses or they will continue to grow in number and severity.

[OverTheHill]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Something the apologists seem to ignore.

There is a principal that the courts hold and which applies here.
The courts hold that ignorance of the law is no excuse. The principal behind this is that any reasonable person SHOULD know, the law in this case.

In the case we are discussing, any reasonable person SHOULD know that a drawing made by a child can not be taken as evidence of anything, unless there is collaborative evidence.
Moreover, from what we are told there was nothing in the drawing that would imply or suggest that this child or any other, had access to this gun or any other.

I hold that all employees of the school, Social Services and the Police for acted unreasonably and irresponsibly.
If we ignore this, we are in effect, supporting such irresponsible behaviour.
By doing nothing or saying nothing, or worse yet, by siding with those who perpetrated this atrocity, we invite further abuses of this nature.
Abuses we may well be the victim of in the future.

I think severe measures need to be taken to ensure that this does not happen again. Not for the sake of retribution. But for the good of society.

Well Spoken Sir

[dgl1948]

Several officers standing around you when you are being strip searched for something you are not fully aware of would be super intimidating I imagine

I had read in one of the news reports that he signed this after the house had been searched. If this turns out to be true his lawyer is going to have a field day.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by dgl1948

I had read in one of the news reports that he signed this after the house had been searched. If this turns out to be true his lawyer is going to have a field day.

Just heard a brief clip of him on Adler, he was totally strip searched, had to lift his nuts so the police could see everything. In F'in Canada!!!!

IF any of these police are allowed to keep their jobs, it will be a sad day in Canada.

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

http://www.570news.com/listen/listen...-gun-at-school
Wow, no remorse at all. That guy can thank his lucky stars he didn't have a gun in the house, even if stored properly, based on that I'd say he would have been toast.

It's hard to listen to, especially the claims of the Chief that "mistakes" were made in "the manner of our interaction with him".

This story does not belong in any country I recognize.

I want somebody to ask if the search of this guy's house included the closets and under the beds. If the child's story about a gun was "amazingly real", why not look for the monsters, too? If not a live monster, there should at least be one or two dead ones that Dad shot. Perhaps dig up the backyard and see if any dead monsters were buried back there. That would be logical, wouldn't it?

[leeaspell]

This is what the girlfriends mom said tonight, and she is totally against guns.

" why are the cops trying to make everyone who has a gun in to a criminal. This.guy didn't even have one and they treated him like a criminal. What's to stop them from doing something like this to you?"

I told her there is nothing to stop it. To which he said
" when I grew up the rcmp were looked up to and respected. These guys are just wanna bees. We need more of the good ol.boys in there"

I'm.glad this story is receiving the attention it is. If it opens the.mother in laws eyes it has sure opened a lot.of other peoples eyes.

[Rod1960]

Originally Posted by leeaspell

I'm.glad this story is receiving the attention it is.

So am I, but what I find interesting/curious/disturbing in that the only national media outlet covering it is Sun News Network, not even a whisper on CBC or CTV. (unless I missed it, correct me if I'm wrong)

[Rod1960]

KITCHENER, Ont. -- Some players in the Kitchener kindergarten gun-doodling fiasco are doing some soul-searching while others are missing in action, as school staff see themselves as "co-parents" to students in their institutions.

Waterloo Regional Police are going to do an internal investigation to see if they erred when they arrested 26-year-old Jessie Sansone.

"I couldn't confirm that mistakes were made as we will be doing an internal review to try and establish if they were," said Insp. Kevin Thaler. "What we were investigating was a drawing of a handgun at the school and subsequently through the investigation, the officers identified the weapon that was being drawn was, in fact, a replica toy gun in the residence."

Sansone, a father of four, was handcuffed at his children's elementary school, strip-searched and detained for hours while being told he was arrested for unlawful possession of a firearm.

His three eldest children were taken by social services, picked up at school and driven to the family services office and questioned.

His pregnant wife, Stephanie, was also hauled in and questioned, while their home was "walked through" by police. (don't mind us, just passing through)

All the result of four-year-old daughter Neveah drawing a picture in class of a man with a gun fighting monsters and bad guys.

The junior kindergarten teacher saw it, questioned Neveah about it, and feared there was a gun in the girl's home that the children were playing with. The school called social services, who in turn called the cops.

After going through the home, executing a warrant, police found a see-through plastic toy that fires plastic darts. (I thought it was just a 'walk through??? Which is it???)

"We have seen these weapons, we have seen these 'items' out in our community, they have been altered and would appear to an adult to be a real firearm, and in these cases they were used to commit robberies, and in this case I am not surprised that a child had the belief that it was real," Thaler said.

The superintendent of Waterloo Regional School district said they are standing behind the teacher's judgment and they will not review their actions.

"We do work hand-in-hand with these families because we co-parent, so we hope that we could move forward," Gregg Bereznick said. "It's understood the stress that the family is going through. (PARDON!?!)

....more: http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews...27-205520.html

.

[BeeGuy]

Whoa whoa whoa,

Is "co-parent" a legal designation?

My wife will be my only co-parent if I reproduce.

[pikergolf]

My God, the school is now a co-parent. And people thought the home schoolers were wacky. This really needs to get blown up and Canada needs a soul seeking look at itself and where we want to go. I know it's in Ontario, far removed from the reality we live in in the west, but it's where we could be headed.

[Rod1960]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

Whoa whoa whoa,

Is "co-parent" a legal designation?

My wife will be my only co-parent if I reproduce.

And so it should be!

Originally Posted by pikergolf

My God, the school is now a co-parent. And people thought the home schoolers were wacky. This really needs to get blown up and Canada needs a soul seeking look at itself and where we want to go. I know it's in Ontario, far removed from the reality we live in in the west, but it's where we could be headed.

Amen!!

[OverTheHill]

CO-PARENT????????????????????

I only love and hate one set of parents....
My parents gave me life... NO ONE ELSE is a CO in that PARENTHOOD

This is not what our tax dollars fund the school system for...

My dad beat me with his belt a couple of times... I didn't turn out to be a moron that holds the world responsible.... I DESERVED THEM

I am happy to be the person I am today unlike the new generation that will never be happy with themselves and they have a CO PARENT to assure them of that!!!!!

DISGUSTING SOCIETY WE LIVE IN

[Au revoir, Gopher]

We do work hand-in-hand with these families because we co-parent

Absolutely brilliant! I have 20+ years worth of childcare expenses I want reimbursement for from these deadbeat co-parents who haven't been pulling their weight!

ARG

[Classic_Cool]

"We have seen these weapons, we have seen these 'items' out in our community, they have been altered and would appear to an adult to be a real firearm, and in these cases they were used to commit robberies, and in this case I am not surprised that a child had the belief that it was real," Thaler said.

Talk about trying to save your ass.....

First of all a gun that shoots plastic pellets is not a damn weapon anymore than a bag of marbles is.

And second what's this "altered to look real" crap?? It was a see-through plastic gun that someone bought over the counter.

"The child thought it was real" The child most likely thinks Santa Claus is real! If they'd done a proper job of questioning the child they would have easily come to the conclusion that it was a TOY.

Sheesh next time I'm home I should dig through my old toy box and find that shiny steel toy gun I used to play with when I was a kid. The cops would sure have loved that....

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by Classic_Cool

Sheesh next time I'm home I should dig through my old toy box and find that shiny steel toy gun I used to play with when I was a kid. The cops would sure have loved that....

When I was a kid I used to have a metal cap gun that shot pieces of potatoes. It look real, and sounded real when you double loaded the caps, and it also shot a projectile.

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

When I was a kid I used to have a metal cap gun that shot pieces of potatoes. It look real, and sounded real when you double loaded the caps, and it also shot a projectile.

Something like that got a 13 year old shot dead in a public school by SWAT down south.

The forum consensus was that he had it coming.

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

Something like that got a 13 year old shot dead in a public school by SWAT down south.

The forum consensus was that he had it coming.

You're pretty loose with your "something like that" comparison, aren't you?

I believe that rwm1273 would have put it down if somebody in a uniform pointed a real gun at him and told him to do so. I'm pretty sure I would have. In any case, I don't ever recall anybody I knew over the age of 6 who would take their toy gun to school and pretend to shoot strangers. As I recall, the toy gun fights were pretty well a consensual thing.

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Let me make it easier for you then to read it all.


All the above comments point to a fear that this sort of thing is rampant...getting worse and that the government is taking over our rights. This points clearly to a similar paranoia that is pervasive in the US right now over Obamacare which is a trifle of what Canadian Health Care is. The fear in the US is that the government is trying to control people's health...and take away their FREEDOM over their own health. If people in Canada heard that the current government was taking away the Canadian Health Care system in order to give everyone on AOF more FREEDOM...then wow...I think Canada would explode over that.

The reason this is the cause de jur in the US is solely as a result of "media" hyping things and creating a frenzy. They don't have a clue in the US about our Health Care System...but they believe a lot of falsehoods from talk show hosts.

So what does this thread say.

The majority agrees it is a bad thing to happen based upon what little the media has said.

Most people agree you can treat someone like a criminal even if they did crime in the past. (not sure if part of the sentence was to not own firearms for 10 years or whatever). Some things the police can not say about this incident due to confidentiality and privacy laws...and likely the guy won't say either.

A lot of people feel that this incident is indicative of a great personal freedom thread that is growing in the country and due to the government and police and do gooders.

Still...while the freedom threat might not be agreed to by all...people agree that mistakes were made and while police due process was likely followed...concerns without further information about the incident means people would not like to see this happen again.

Cheers

Sun

Some very creative editing there Sundance, you must work for the CBC?

Also couldn't help but notice LOT'S of post's but NOT one firearm or related hunting equipment sale....Therefore I say TROLL? perhaps.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter

Some very creative editing there Sundance, you must work for the CBC?

Also couldn't help but notice LOT'S of post's but NOT one firearm or related hunting equipment sale....Therefore I say TROLL? perhaps.

Firstly...I note I have a typo...I meant to say "most people don't think you can treat someone like a criminal for a past crime they did the time for".

The rest looks right.

Secondly...I am extremely active as a volunteer in the community. I have many kids in the school system. I have had more than my share of interaction with our health care system. I have spend a ton of time outside the house away from computers. I actively provide my opinions to politicians on everything from health care to fishing. I am active at work and associations and I have been around for a long time and my personal opinion is that we are not becoming a Nazi state. We are not becoming a police state. There are no attempts by either the Provincial or Federal governments to take over our lives. I do not see my rights being eroded.

So my response still stands as my opinion and observations.

The media is prone to taking a minor story in a small market and blow it out of proportion. Always has...always will and I have personally been in involved in a number of stories. It is getting worse as written and TV news competes with the internet. The international media loves anything that becomes bigger than life. The internet gossip plays to a bigger audience than Oprah...and almost all of us fall into it's trap from time to time.

Everyone is allowed a voice and an opinion and mine opinion on this particular subject is that what happened is wrong based upon the information put out in the "media" so far. The parties affected have not said anything to date to change my opinion. And that this is just simply an isolated incident of common sense being lost.

I am just waiting for the next story to move everyones focus...as it always does.

And no...I don't believe there is any attempt to circumvent my rights as some suggest. As a past poster said...all we need is common sense to prevail. The best way we can do that is to not get all hot and bothered but when involved in the situation, be adults and work through it. When mistakes happen...work to correct them.

Witch hunt, pitch fork and torch screaming emotional finger wagging online fight matches does little to fix small problems in society. Logical common sense thinking does.

Cheers

Sun

P.S. I do work for CBC...how'd you guess. I am producing a new Rick Mercer show called "Talking To Paranoid Canadians". I am looking for people that believe our rights are being eroded...know anyone?

And not sure what your troll remark but who does not like shooting stuff and making loud noise. That has nothing to do with common sense and paranoia.

[Sushi]

The latest is that Ontario Premier Doltan McGuinty is supporting the school's actions. I'm starting to pay attention to Dolt now especially after his ignorant and foolishly arrogant remarks in response to Allison Redford's request for endorsing the oil sands. Very sad...