Man shocked by arrest after daughter draws picture of gun at school

[Yéil]

Perhaps the officers in KW region need a refresher course on the R v Golden Case... where the SCC confirmed:

that reasonable and probable grounds to arrest do not ipso facto confer automatic authority for the police to carry out a strip search. Further,

In light of the serious infringement of privacy and personal dignity that is an inevitable consequence of a strip search, such searches are only constitutionally valid at common law where they are conducted as an incident to a lawful arrest for the purpose of discovering weapons in the detainee’s possession or evidence related to the reason for the arrest. […] [P]olice must establish reasonable and probable grounds justifying the strip search in addition to reasonable and probable grounds justifying the arrest. Where these preconditions to conducting a strip search incident to arrest are met, it is also necessary that the strip search be conducted in a manner that does not infringe s. 8 of the Charter.

They continued with:

We particularly disagree with the suggestion that an arrested person’s non-cooperation and resistance necessarily entitles police to engage in behaviour that disregards or compromises his or her physical and psychological integrity and safety. If the general approach articulated in this case is not followed, such that the search is unreasonable, there is no requirement that anyone cooperate with the violation of his or her Charter rights. Any application of force or violence must be both necessary and proportional in the specific circumstances. In this case, the appellant’s refusal to relinquish the evidence does not justify or mitigate the fact that he was strip searched in a public place, and in a manner that showed considerable disregard for his dignity and his physical integrity, despite the absence of reasonable and probable grounds or exigent circumstances.

What I'm curious is the progression of coming into the School's office and ending up being arrested (which would marginally allow a strip search for weapons) and the children being apprehended by CFS. Seems to me that the big question of "Do you own any weapons or have one on you at present?" was omitted by the inquiring parties. I find the talking heads inability to comment on what was the response to the father being asked the above questions to be rather telling that they didn't bother to ask.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

Sorry Sunny, You need to dance with the one you brought.
You don't get to make the incident more serious. You don't get to change the outrage over what happened to a law abiding citizen by casting aspersons of wild paranoia.

There was no paranoia. He didn't go to the school to pick up his kids, all the while looking over his shoulder for someone out to get him.

This wasn't a child abuse drawing.

He was arrested, detained and strip searched for nothing more than a drawing by a 4 YEAR OLD CHILD>

He wasn't quietly and politely questioned about it.

You are the one who introduced 'conspiracy' to the topic. Most people don't think we are living in a police state or that this kind of thing is common.

We are however outraged at the way the 'professionals' in this case handled it.
That's it. We would like them held accountable for their poor judgement.

So you can put away the pitch forks and torches. No one is screaming about barbarians on the ramparts except you.


BTW the girl did ay her dad shoots bad guys and monsters, not female students at L'ecole polytechnique.

I hope monsters are not on an endangered list. MY 41/2 yr. old grand daughter has this crazy idea that her grandpa eats them on a cracker.

I beg to differ.

This is being blown out of proportion. I even put a scenario in that would be more serious. Specifically answering to this one...while annoying and that it would make a great story at work, the bar and the poker table...the intense feelings over this is misplaced and purely an example of blogger hysteria.

If you are saying you found the story (however limited these third party media hyped stories are) to be distasteful and that mistakes were made...then you and I are in agreement. You and I can both agree all we know is what the media has told us. I have personally been in the news and seen how wrong they get even the simplest stories.

If you are on the side that says this one incident means our society and lives are being eroded and that this is not an isolated example of people being human and making mistakes...and that a move is a foot to take away our freedoms, then we are in disagreement.

what says you?

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Yéil

Perhaps the officers in KW region need a refresher course on the R v Golden Case... where the SCC confirmed:



They continued with:



What I'm curious is the progression of coming into the School's office and ending up being arrested (which would marginally allow a strip search for weapons) and the children being apprehended by CFS. Seems to me that the big question of "Do you own any weapons or have one on you at present?" was omitted by the inquiring parties. I find the talking heads inability to comment on what was the response to the father being asked the above questions to be rather telling that they didn't bother to ask.

Facts would be nice for sure...when talking about the particulars of the incident.

[Redfrog]

I have already stated that I'm concerned with the rights of this man being stripped away without reasonable grounds.
What are reasonable grounds? Surely not the drawing of a 4 year old child, and a tale of killing bad guys and monsters.
If it is reasonable grounds then 90% of the populace should be arrested and strip searched. How many kids draw monsters and dragons and battles and unicorns.
Not reasonable grounds.

As I said I don't see a lot of us rednecks screaming about a plot or conspiracy. I do see a lot of concern or the lack of professional decision making in this case.

I also think that it is important that every single case like this be dragged to the light of day for scrutiny.

You may choose to be complacent and accepting at having your rights denied, but I do not. Not even once.

[Sushi]

Infuriating! Thanks to the OP for posting this article as it is always good to be aware of these things. squirt guns, nerf guns, pellet guns, real guns...all present in this house...once I was cleaning my rifle when one of my kids friends showed up...they were shocked to see a 'real gun'...actually I could tell they were quite disturbed by it (a 9 year old girl) so I explained the safe storage laws and that I would lock it up once done and that is was perfectly safe and that I had to have training and a license to own it, etc...still seems strange to me that some people don't find guns to be a normal, common item...however...

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

I have already stated that I'm concerned with the rights of this man being stripped away without reasonable grounds.
What are reasonable grounds? Surely not the drawing of a 4 year old child, and a tale of killing bad guys and monsters.
If it is reasonable grounds then 90% of the populace should be arrested and strip searched. How many kids draw monsters and dragons and battles and unicorns.
Not reasonable grounds.

As I said I don't see a lot of us rednecks screaming about a plot or conspiracy. I do see a lot of concern or the lack of professional decision making in this case.

I also think that it is important that every single case like this be dragged to the light of day for scrutiny.

You may choose to be complacent and accepting at having your rights denied, but I do not. Not even once.

Being as these are not common... and people make mistakes...I guess we kinda see eye to eye...but you are off in the woods to a degree on this one. Come back into the light where you can see the big picture.

You don't see you are screaming about a plot or conspiracy but in fact you are. You are not saying these are random events caused by an over zealous few or just lapses or mistakes in judgement... Instead you are coming across that there is a conspiracy of eroding rights and you are on the front lines protecting it.

It reminds me of Greenpeace saying they are not fanatics...just normal people out protecting the eroding environment from all businesses...cause they are bad.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

News flash.

PEOPLE ARE ALL HUMAN AND MAKE MISTAKES REGARDLESS OF OCCUPATION! Get over it and move on to the next inflammatory story.

Have the police, Children's services and the Principal expressed that their actions were a "MISTAKE"?


In the articles I read I saw an apology from the police, but no admission of a mistake being made in how they dealt with the teacher's critique of the child's artwork.

[Au revoir, Gopher]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

International media to national media...there is intense need to find some story in an otherwise mundane news world.

That statement I can agree with 100%. Unfortunately it is not the topic under discussion.

What worries me about this incident is not that it happened, but that it will happen again. Why do I believe it will happen again? Because everyone involved believes they behaved appropriately. Therefore, if a similar situation arises it will all happen again. If the police were to say, "this was not handled properly and we will review the process that lead to this decision." I would have some hope that it might not happen again.

ARG

[dgl1948]

I read where Soloman Friedman is now representing Sansone.

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Being as these are not common... and people make mistakes...I guess we kinda see eye to eye...but you are off in the woods to a degree on this one. Come back into the light where you can see the big picture.

You don't see you are screaming about a plot or conspiracy but in fact you are. You are not saying these are random events caused by an over zealous few or just lapses or mistakes in judgement... Instead you are coming across that there is a conspiracy of eroding rights and you are on the front lines protecting it.

It reminds me of Greenpeace saying they are not fanatics...just normal people out protecting the eroding environment from all businesses...cause they are bad.

You are still intent on putting this 'conspiracy theory' theory onto me or someone else.

I've seen nothing that indicates anyone other than you thinks there is a conspiracy afoot.

It is simple. Several 'professionals' behaved in a very unprofessional manner, completely lacking in common sense and in doing so, badly mistreated a law abiding citizen who was simply going about his daily business.

That's it. No conspiracy.

I expect them to take responsibility for their actions.

[noelb]

I am a paramedic, a former peace officer (Alberta Sheriff), and a former member of the Canadian Forces (QOR. PPCLI, FD AMB). I own guns. I have never been arrested or convicted of any crime. I do; however, have pictures of my infant daughter (one of two children) on facebook with my M4. Guess I better get a lawyer. Clearly, I am a threat to society.

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

I beg to differ.

This is being blown out of proportion. I even put a scenario in that would be more serious. Specifically answering to this one...while annoying and that it would make a great story at work, the bar and the poker table...the intense feelings over this is misplaced and purely an example of blogger hysteria.

If you are saying you found the story (however limited these third party media hyped stories are) to be distasteful and that mistakes were made...then you and I are in agreement. You and I can both agree all we know is what the media has told us. I have personally been in the news and seen how wrong they get even the simplest stories.

If you are on the side that says this one incident means our society and lives are being eroded and that this is not an isolated example of people being human and making mistakes...and that a move is a foot to take away our freedoms, then we are in disagreement.

what says you?

You are correct that often the media hype up some stories, and then the internet get a hold of it, and the story spirals out of control.

I find from personal experience that some of the schools are now so worried about not doing the right thing, that they jump to the worst conclusions possible right from the start, and common sense is lost. Even just a few years ago the teacher would have asked the parent to explain the picture before they took further action. Today I believe they are being indoctrinated that they must take action, or they may be found guilty if something did happen and they didn't act on it. So in many cases it becomes lets err on the side of stupid fear because it may be possible that this dad shoots monsters at home, and Redfrog eats them on his crackers to dispose of the body.

A number of years ago there was a movie made about a town in the US where the daycare staff member believed that the children's parents were into witch craft, and half the kids in the daycare where subjected to demonic rituals. The social workers involved kept interviewing the children until they got what they wanted, and the stories where so outrageous that no sane person could believe it, but the children were taken from the parents and put into foster care. This is nothing new. Social services is not your friend. More often when they intervene in a situation, they make it worse.

In my son's two schools, I have had issues. The first was the school called child and family services and I was threatened with them taking my kids from me. How this occurred was my son was about to get into trouble and so he said his step mom hurt him. Had they interviewed him, they would have found out that his sister had hit him the day before, my wife held him and calmed him and placed some ice on his knee that his sister had bruised. The next day as she drove them to school, he was hitting his sister with his lunch bag, and as my wife tried to grab it from her driver's seat, she brushed up against his sore knee. My son had previously found out that if he makes an accusation about something, then he can get out of trouble for his own actions. I had this conversation with his teacher and principal, and they both realized the problem they caused, and that child and family services actually caused more problems with my son's behavior than he was before their involvement.

Second time was at his current school. He brought one piece of .22 lead from the range, which in fact was missed when he took out all the other pieces of lead and casings. The principal threatened to suspend him for bringing a dangerous weapon to school, and she threatened me with police investigation. At least they did not call in child and family services, first, and elected to speak with both me, and my ex wife, and we both were on my son's side, and felt the school over reacted. However I have a meeting to deal with him making a gun symbol with his hand while on the bus now.

There have been others who have posted issues at their children's schools too. So obviously within our small group there is enough people affected to say that this is not an isolated incident.

Bottom line is we can't stick our head in the sand and say it won't happen to me. We also don't need to go around in a perpetual state of paranoia. But when things like this happen, the population need to stand up and say this is unacceptable, and perhaps some of these people who have to deal with such situations will think before they jump to conclusions, and society can go back to days when common sense was more prevalent.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

A number of years ago there was a movie made about a town in the US where the daycare staff member believed that the children's parents were into witch craft, and half the kids in the daycare where subjected to demonic rituals. The social workers involved kept interviewing the children until they got what they wanted, and the stories where so outrageous that no sane person could believe it, but the children were taken from the parents and put into foster care. This is nothing new. Social services is not your friend. More often when they intervene in a situation, they make it worse.

.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martensville,_Saskatchewan

Happened right here in Canada if that's the one you're thinking of. Might have happened in the states as well. As I recall they had experts from the states up here testifying as well.

[rwm1273]

The movie I remember was based in the pacific north west. Can't remember if it was Washington of Oregon, but could be wrong.

Could have been based on the Saskatchewan case too, but made into a US movie.

So it does happen, and we need to ensure that id doesn't happen again.

[guywiththemule]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

You are correct that often the media hype up some stories, and then the internet get a hold of it, and the story spirals out of control.

I find from personal experience that some of the schools are now so worried about not doing the right thing, that they jump to the worst conclusions possible right from the start, and common sense is lost. Even just a few years ago the teacher would have asked the parent to explain the picture before they took further action. Today I believe they are being indoctrinated that they must take action, or they may be found guilty if something did happen and they didn't act on it. So in many cases it becomes lets err on the side of stupid fear because it may be possible that this dad shoots monsters at home, and Redfrog eats them on his crackers to dispose of the body.

A number of years ago there was a movie made about a town in the US where the daycare staff member believed that the children's parents were into witch craft, and half the kids in the daycare where subjected to demonic rituals. The social workers involved kept interviewing the children until they got what they wanted, and the stories where so outrageous that no sane person could believe it, but the children were taken from the parents and put into foster care. This is nothing new. Social services is not your friend. More often when they intervene in a situation, they make it worse.

In my son's two schools, I have had issues. The first was the school called child and family services and I was threatened with them taking my kids from me. How this occurred was my son was about to get into trouble and so he said his step mom hurt him. Had they interviewed him, they would have found out that his sister had hit him the day before, my wife held him and calmed him and placed some ice on his knee that his sister had bruised. The next day as she drove them to school, he was hitting his sister with his lunch bag, and as my wife tried to grab it from her driver's seat, she brushed up against his sore knee. My son had previously found out that if he makes an accusation about something, then he can get out of trouble for his own actions. I had this conversation with his teacher and principal, and they both realized the problem they caused, and that child and family services actually caused more problems with my son's behavior than he was before their involvement.

Second time was at his current school. He brought one piece of .22 lead from the range, which in fact was missed when he took out all the other pieces of lead and casings. The principal threatened to suspend him for bringing a dangerous weapon to school, and she threatened me with police investigation. At least they did not call in child and family services, first, and elected to speak with both me, and my ex wife, and we both were on my son's side, and felt the school over reacted. However I have a meeting to deal with him making a gun symbol with his hand while on the bus now.

There have been others who have posted issues at their children's schools too. So obviously within our small group there is enough people affected to say that this is not an isolated incident.

Bottom line is we can't stick our head in the sand and say it won't happen to me. We also don't need to go around in a perpetual state of paranoia. But when things like this happen, the population need to stand up and say this is unacceptable, and perhaps some of these people who have to deal with such situations will think before they jump to conclusions, and society can go back to days when common sense was more prevalent.

This kind of crap is happening every day in Alberta, let alone canada. I know of several cases (and I will not elaborate), but anybody who denies this is an ostrich and/or government employee and refuses to acknowlege that this abuse of power and authority does exist in this country and it needs to be addressed and stopped !

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

You are still intent on putting this 'conspiracy theory' theory onto me or someone else.

I've seen nothing that indicates anyone other than you thinks there is a conspiracy afoot.

It is simple. Several 'professionals' behaved in a very unprofessional manner, completely lacking in common sense and in doing so, badly mistreated a law abiding citizen who was simply going about his daily business.

That's it. No conspiracy.

I expect them to take responsibility for their actions.

Let me make it easier for you then to read it all.

Originally Posted by vcmm

Welcome to CANUKISTAN

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

Anyone else worried about the continued development of a police state in this country?
...

Originally Posted by Rod1960

Because the antis and politicians have their kindred spirit whipped into such a frenzy with their fear mongering and lies that even a drawing by a 4 year old gets a man arrested.

Originally Posted by vcmm

It's like living in a Dictatorship

Originally Posted by rugatika

...
The police powers have gone way tooooo far. Police have too much power, that they don't need. ...

Totally unacceptable in a so called "free" country.

Originally Posted by AB2506

...
unless Ontario is worse than Nazi Germany, ...

Originally Posted by vcmm

Maybe if a major lawsuit happened they might think about the GESTAPO tactics!!

Originally Posted by vcmm

If you think this is bad and it is. When they pass the new internet bill you might want to throw out your computer. Buy a new one and be VERY CAREFUL what you type

Originally Posted by OverTheHill

This is how we begin being a police state...
Welcome 2012-20XX ...

Originally Posted by u_cant_rope_the_wind

...welcome to dictatorship crossed with communism= Canada

Originally Posted by pattycr125

brave new world(puke)

Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter

...
With attitudes like this MEXICO will seem like a paradise. Give your head a shake, loss of freedom no matter how small, is just one more step to total loss of freedom...

Originally Posted by bigbaddad

... A true testament to the power of the state in this "free" country.

Originally Posted by rwm1273

Problem is this is not an isolated incident. Things like this happen all the time in our nanny state. Just hope it does not happen to you. But maybe it will happen to your son.

It is time that the sheep.. of Canada start to stand up and say enough is enough of the nanny state.

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Sun you are a Goverments dream citizen, take it and smile.

Originally Posted by guywiththemule

This kind of crap is happening every day in Alberta, let alone canada. I know of several cases (and I will not elaborate), but anybody who denies this is an ostrich and/or government employee and refuses to acknowlege that this abuse of power and authority does exist in this country and it needs to be addressed and stopped !

All the above comments point to a fear that this sort of thing is rampant...getting worse and that the government is taking over our rights. This points clearly to a similar paranoia that is pervasive in the US right now over Obamacare which is a trifle of what Canadian Health Care is. The fear in the US is that the government is trying to control people's health...and take away their FREEDOM over their own health. If people in Canada heard that the current government was taking away the Canadian Health Care system in order to give everyone on AOF more FREEDOM...then wow...I think Canada would explode over that.

The reason this is the cause de jur in the US is solely as a result of "media" hyping things and creating a frenzy. They don't have a clue in the US about our Health Care System...but they believe a lot of falsehoods from talk show hosts.

So what does this thread say.

The majority agrees it is a bad thing to happen based upon what little the media has said.

Most people agree you can treat someone like a criminal even if they did crime in the past. (not sure if part of the sentence was to not own firearms for 10 years or whatever). Some things the police can not say about this incident due to confidentiality and privacy laws...and likely the guy won't say either.

A lot of people feel that this incident is indicative of a great personal freedom thread that is growing in the country and due to the government and police and do gooders.

Still...while the freedom threat might not be agreed to by all...people agree that mistakes were made and while police due process was likely followed...concerns without further information about the incident means people would not like to see this happen again.

Cheers

Sun

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

You are correct that often the media hype up some stories, and then the internet get a hold of it, and the story spirals out of control.

I find from personal experience that some of the schools are now so worried about not doing the right thing, that they jump to the worst conclusions possible right from the start, and common sense is lost. Even just a few years ago the teacher would have asked the parent to explain the picture before they took further action. Today I believe they are being indoctrinated that they must take action, or they may be found guilty if something did happen and they didn't act on it. So in many cases it becomes lets err on the side of stupid fear because it may be possible that this dad shoots monsters at home, and Redfrog eats them on his crackers to dispose of the body.

A number of years ago there was a movie made about a town in the US where the daycare staff member believed that the children's parents were into witch craft, and half the kids in the daycare where subjected to demonic rituals. The social workers involved kept interviewing the children until they got what they wanted, and the stories where so outrageous that no sane person could believe it, but the children were taken from the parents and put into foster care. This is nothing new. Social services is not your friend. More often when they intervene in a situation, they make it worse.

In my son's two schools, I have had issues. The first was the school called child and family services and I was threatened with them taking my kids from me. How this occurred was my son was about to get into trouble and so he said his step mom hurt him. Had they interviewed him, they would have found out that his sister had hit him the day before, my wife held him and calmed him and placed some ice on his knee that his sister had bruised. The next day as she drove them to school, he was hitting his sister with his lunch bag, and as my wife tried to grab it from her driver's seat, she brushed up against his sore knee. My son had previously found out that if he makes an accusation about something, then he can get out of trouble for his own actions. I had this conversation with his teacher and principal, and they both realized the problem they caused, and that child and family services actually caused more problems with my son's behavior than he was before their involvement.

Second time was at his current school. He brought one piece of .22 lead from the range, which in fact was missed when he took out all the other pieces of lead and casings. The principal threatened to suspend him for bringing a dangerous weapon to school, and she threatened me with police investigation. At least they did not call in child and family services, first, and elected to speak with both me, and my ex wife, and we both were on my son's side, and felt the school over reacted. However I have a meeting to deal with him making a gun symbol with his hand while on the bus now.

There have been others who have posted issues at their children's schools too. So obviously within our small group there is enough people affected to say that this is not an isolated incident.

Bottom line is we can't stick our head in the sand and say it won't happen to me. We also don't need to go around in a perpetual state of paranoia. But when things like this happen, the population need to stand up and say this is unacceptable, and perhaps some of these people who have to deal with such situations will think before they jump to conclusions, and society can go back to days when common sense was more prevalent.

I don't see these few stories as being cause for a national debate on freedom. Clearly you have a difficult child which in turn makes it difficult on the system until they are fully aware of the situation. Child abuse is not taken lightly for good reason. Sometimes to balance these situations we hear of mistakes on the other side where someone misses obvious clues...abuse continues and kids die. This happened in the US recently when the guy killed his children during a supervised visit. In hindsight...a mistake just like yours but on the other side...not enough intervention.

So do I look at the big picture and say except for extra ordinary situations these problems don't occur so let's not stretch this past a mistake of a individual to a systematic reduction in personal freedoms...yes...that is my opinion.

Others are free to stretch this into something it is not...and hey...it is Canada so no one will stop you. Those of your that believe in the conspiracy...write a good book and I will borrow from the library.

Cheers

Sun

PS there are over 35,000,000,000 people in Canada. Anyone not expecting a normal percentage of mistakes of various kinds are fooling themselves. From false arrests to people being listed as deceased when in fact alive. From a banking error in their favor or against. From a motor vehicle registration error to a photo radar trap. Don't live your life by worrying about problems...get past it and move on. Life is too short to live in fear.

[vcmm]

Sun, I'm no where near paranoid. Just seen to much crap like this happen personally.
At some point in time common sense needs to kick in for all involved.Unless somebody or some situation becomes an example its' going to get worse.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by vcmm

Sun, I'm no where near paranoid. Just seen to much crap like this happen personally.
At some point in time common sense needs to kick in for all involved.Unless somebody or some situation becomes an example its' going to get worse.

I agree that common sense is usually the defining factor in situations like this. People need to understand that with all the billions of situations that happen in Canada each year to our 35,000,000,000 population...a percentage will be screwed up. Human nature...human error...computer errors...everything happens.

I know a guy who got arrested for unpaid parking tickets...picked up at home and taken downtown. After a while they realized the tickets had been paid but the computers screwed it up... So is this proof of a police state or just we as people are not perfect but the system needs to be followed to prevent societal chaos.

What mistakes happen get weeded out...hopefully sooner than later.

You and I are 110% in agreement...common sense should prevail. There should be an ombudsman of common sense and everyone should get 3 free calls to him/her. Use them wisely. Some seem simple after the fact...and some may be obvious to an objective party.

[vcmm]

Unfortunately until some heads roll it won't change.This is the kinda of thing that breeds ugly.Next it will be paranoia,mob mentality,nobody trusting any authority fiqures etc.
It's to bad what our beloved country and society is becoming.

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

I don't see these few stories as being cause for a national debate on freedom. Clearly you have a difficult child which in turn makes it difficult on the system until they are fully aware of the situation. Child abuse is not taken lightly for good reason. Sometimes to balance these situations we hear of mistakes on the other side where someone misses obvious clues...abuse continues and kids die. This happened in the US recently when the guy killed his children during a supervised visit. In hindsight...a mistake just like yours but on the other side...not enough intervention.

So do I look at the big picture and say except for extra ordinary situations these problems don't occur so let's not stretch this past a mistake of a individual to a systematic reduction in personal freedoms...yes...that is my opinion.

Others are free to stretch this into something it is not...and hey...it is Canada so no one will stop you. Those of your that believe in the conspiracy...write a good book and I will borrow from the library.

Cheers

Sun

PS there are over 35,000,000,000 people in Canada. Anyone not expecting a normal percentage of mistakes of various kinds are fooling themselves. From false arrests to people being listed as deceased when in fact alive. From a banking error in their favor or against. From a motor vehicle registration error to a photo radar trap. Don't live your life by worrying about problems...get past it and move on. Life is too short to live in fear.

I think you are a bit out of touch here. You do have a sound argument that we should not go into paranoia, but your idea of paranoia being rampant is not what I see from the others who have posted. Maybe you want to look at your position, and reread those of others before you start passing out tinfoil hats to us.

As for my son, I don't think he is out of control, but more the system wants to find fault when there is none, and are more than willing to jump to conclusions without actually getting to the root of the problem. I do not see from what I have posted how you can draw a conclusion that I have a problem child. He is not getting into trouble for bullying other kids, or yelling and carrying on. But he is getting into trouble because he is playing as boys his age do, and often it includes playing guns/army/monsters, and as such he and the other boys make symbols with their hands to play the game. Instead of vilifying this, the school staff should recognize this for what it is. Good healthy game and role playing. Now if he was 16yrs old and doing these things, then perhaps there would be a problem.

At what time do you think that people should stand up to those who don't have any common sense anymore, and have the power and position to screw your whole life?

In an earlier post you spoke about how if this had happened to you, it would not be that big of a deal, even if your children were taken away to be interviewed. I know of some that had a social worker go get a court order for apprehension without ever speaking to the child or the parents to get to the bottom of an issue. What happened was months of investigation, and the children spent this time in foster care. How would you feel if this happened to you? If people don't stand up to this now, by the time your son (or mine) has kids, it will be too late.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

I think you are a bit out of touch here. You do have a sound argument that we should not go into paranoia, but your idea of paranoia being rampant is not what I see from the others who have posted. Maybe you want to look at your position, and reread those of others before you start passing out tinfoil hats to us.

As for my son, I don't think he is out of control, but more the system wants to find fault when there is none, and are more than willing to jump to conclusions without actually getting to the root of the problem. I do not see from what I have posted how you can draw a conclusion that I have a problem child. He is not getting into trouble for bullying other kids, or yelling and carrying on. But he is getting into trouble because he is playing as boys his age do, and often it includes playing guns/army/monsters, and as such he and the other boys make symbols with their hands to play the game. Instead of vilifying this, the school staff should recognize this for what it is. Good healthy game and role playing. Now if he was 16yrs old and doing these things, then perhaps there would be a problem.

At what time do you think that people should stand up to those who don't have any common sense anymore, and have the power and position to screw your whole life?

In an earlier post you spoke about how if this had happened to you, it would not be that big of a deal, even if your children were taken away to be interviewed. I know of some that had a social worker go get a court order for apprehension without ever speaking to the child or the parents to get to the bottom of an issue. What happened was months of investigation, and the children spent this time in foster care. How would you feel if this happened to you? If people don't stand up to this now, by the time your son (or mine) has kids, it will be too late.

I am not saying all but I did post a series of quotes that is not pointing to each instance being isolated onto it self but going as far as comparing Canada to the Nazis, reference to a police state, dictatorship, communism, becoming a third world country, total loss of freedom, etc. I fully understand the anger within a blog community...I can catch the bug from time to time. I also fully get the common sense idea. At the same time we don't know all the information. We are ranting about a media article in which we know they are motivated to sell and don't put all the fact out there and spin to increase readers. I also don't hear about bad Principal's doing this daily or weekly or monthly...in fact this is the first time I have EVER hear of this particular thing happening in our 35,000,000,000 population.

So if I don't get as bent out of shape as others have...that is life and just my personal feelings.

As for your child sorry...you mentioned he uses the system to get out of trouble...maybe saying he was hurt or threatening to say something happened.

Originally Posted by rwm1273

How this occurred was my son was about to get into trouble and so he said his step mom hurt him.

Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying or the context therein. Child abuse is very touchy...over react...you cause people grief...under react a child could die. It is a lot of pressure to be under when caught in the middle. I don't envy people in that situation.

Sounds like you have a rambunctious boy...some teachers have a hard time with that... There are good teachers and bad. I had many boys like that in Beavers and Cubs. As a leader I started each meeting with running, a game...wore them out a bit before the guest arrived or the craft started. Some parents were annoyed...I cared less. It was just common sense to do it that way. Anyone like to do it differently were free to take over. No one offered to step up.

As for problems at a school...if possible I would transfer schools. Often bad teachers (and they spread the opinion in the coffee room) pigeon hole kids a certain way...smart, athletic, trouble, shy...and treat them like that through out school. I was treated as being bad at math...mid 50's...to mid 60's. Got little help. Then in later grades actually had good teachers...went to mid 80's right away.

[rwm1273]

Sundance: Ok so you don't hear this kind of thing every day. That is great, it means that it is not rampant. But you hear about a few schools banning Halloween, or putting up ridiculous rules around it. Same thing about Christmas, Remembrance day, Easter, and so on. It is not too far of a leap to think that the principal and teacher involved in this stupidity is also guilty of some other stupid knee jerk reactions. Then when these morons have their professional development days, they sit around and discuss more stupid things like this. People like this always seem to end up being the ones in power, because often they have more ambition to "do the right thing" but only their ideas are the right thing, and anyone else is wrong.

It is time to purge the stupid.

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

As for problems at a school...if possible I would transfer schools. Often bad teachers (and they spread the opinion in the coffee room) pigeon hole kids a certain way...smart, athletic, trouble, shy...and treat them like that through out school. I was treated as being bad at math...mid 50's...to mid 60's. Got little help. Then in later grades actually had good teachers...went to mid 80's right away.

My son is in a school where he gets extra help as he was falling behind in the regular program. So moving schools is not as easy as it could be. But here is another silly thing. The principal called me a few weeks ago to inform me that my son was improving and he was going to be tested to see if he is still eligible for the funding he gets to be at this school. I was happy, and said to her that it was good news. She did not see how I could find it was good news. I had to point out that if he is improving to the point that he may not be eligible for special funding, that they have done a good job, and he can go back to regular schooling with his local friends. She still does not think my happiness is warranted. But she is going to lose funding, and my son will gain self esteem by no longer feeling like he is stupid. To me my son's happiness is more important than her funding.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

Sundance: Ok so you don't hear this kind of thing every day. That is great, it means that it is not rampant. But you hear about a few schools banning Halloween, or putting up ridiculous rules around it. Same thing about Christmas, Remembrance day, Easter, and so on. It is not too far of a leap to think that the principal and teacher involved in this stupidity is also guilty of some other stupid knee jerk reactions. Then when these morons have their professional development days, they sit around and discuss more stupid things like this. People like this always seem to end up being the ones in power, because often they have more ambition to "do the right thing" but only their ideas are the right thing, and anyone else is wrong.

It is time to purge the stupid.

just a drop in a large bucket still. I agree...common sense... Not everyone back in the 1930's had common sense either. We just did not have the internet to find out about it real time and people were to busy with farming and surviving to give a rats arse about some school in a small town or a cop arresting a person then letting them go.

Now making assumptions on other things is where the media gets off. They love it when it gains steam...a life of its own and they can write further stories.

Please don't start assuming stuff. I like your posts to date and your reference to common sense. Common sense does not dictate either you or I can guess what someone else we don't know is doing or thinking in another place in this world purely based upon a supposed media story meant to sell papers.

Going from one teacher...one principal...one police officer to all teachers...all principals...all police officers is what I disagree with. Going from this one instance to inventing new ones in your mind is what I disagree with.

Night.

Sun

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

My son is in a school where he gets extra help as he was falling behind in the regular program. So moving schools is not as easy as it could be. But here is another silly thing. The principal called me a few weeks ago to inform me that my son was improving and he was going to be tested to see if he is still eligible for the funding he gets to be at this school. I was happy, and said to her that it was good news. She did not see how I could find it was good news. I had to point out that if he is improving to the point that he may not be eligible for special funding, that they have done a good job, and he can go back to regular schooling with his local friends. She still does not think my happiness is warranted. But she is going to lose funding, and my son will gain self esteem by no longer feeling like he is stupid. To me my son's happiness is more important than her funding.

Clear case of bad Principal. Clear case of a playing a system for the wrong reasons.

AWESOME your son is doing better. I personally would just sit back and laugh at the Principal...in private...and huge and praise that son of yours.

You hit the nail on the hammer. The most important thing is to encourage and promote good grades as self esteem for him in school is super important. It is a negative feedback loop for boys...slip behind...it just gets steadily worse.

Cheers and good work on getting him the help!

[rwm1273]

I don't label all teachers, schools, police, or even social workers as evil, as most people go to work every day to try and do good. Perhaps more social workers end up doing more bad than good largely because they have control over your children, and you can't do much about it.

As for the 1930's, they were a different time when working the farm was more important than going to school. You learned all you needed at church was often the mentality. However those people did stand up to injustices. They filled the army to defeat an individual who was taking away rights and freedoms of another country. They knew that if they did not stand up to Hitler or the Kaiser during the first war, then eventually the problem would spread to our country.

Technology has made it possible for one person to be able to do the work of many, making it possible for all children to go to school as there was no reason to hold them at home to work the farm. Now technology has evolved to a point where we know what is happening on other continents as it happens. It is easy to become involved in things on the other side of the world, look at how fast the world is able to respond to disasters.

[hillbillyreefer]

http://www.570news.com/radio/570news...-news-webcasts

Check out the webcast tomorrow Feb 27 at 9am eastern (7am here) the Crayola cop Chief Matt Torigian is scheduled to be on. I'm sure he will set the record straight, explain how strip searching is justified because a 4yo drew a picture.

Should be interesting, bring a shovel.

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by vcmm

Unfortunately until some heads roll it won't change.

You're exactly right.

Unless heads roll and big money judgments are the price for such jackboot behaviour, we will continue to hear the "Whoops" defence. Sadly, heads never roll and damages are never paid in this country and that goes in spades whenever the "G" word can be worked into the story....even a crayon "G".

Our society can be up in arms and award a Syrian $10M dollars for some discomfort, fear, intimidation in a foreign jail because, even though there was no evidence of physical torture, our MSM wept at the thought of the Canadian State being complicit in such humiliation, deprivation of freedom and loss of personal security on the basis of hearsay evidence from U.S. authorities.

And yet, there is barely a ripple in the MSM about a Canadian man arrested, stripped naked, humiliated, intimidated and broken down by a gang of thugs in uniform (SWAT no doubt) and whose home is then tossed, personal belongings dug out, spread around and gone through on the basis of hearsay evidence from a 4 yr. old.

Yes, heads should roll and the social services goofs and the police should pay big and the school should pay medium. That would be how we, as a society, send a message that this will not be tolerated and these bureaucracies would then be motivated to change and, next time, to think. But it won't happen. There will be some dirt dug up on the victim and then we'll hear lots of politically correct jingos and some practiced police speak and that will be that.

[OverTheHill]

Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer

should be interesting, bring a shovel.

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