Freemasons

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

I want be there when the interlodge "Anchorman" street brawls previously mentioned go down. My Great Grandfathers masonic pocket-watch would probably make an effective set of Bolas for entangling fleeing opponents, rendering them easy prey for the chariot riding fez throwers.

Ever see "The Gangs of New York"?
Cat

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by 30Cal

Possibly worth the read & research, you be the judge?


Men in Obscene Red Fezzes!

I am going to tell you things here that you may have never heard, and some which will be hard to believe. If you have thought of Masons and the Shriners in a positive light because they do all those nice things for kiddies and old people, this will definitely burst your bubble. The Bible says that Satan walks to and fro on this earth masquerading as an 'angel of light' that many might be deceived. See if you don't agree.

Many people go into Freemasonry today believing that it is just a philanthropic organization that does a lot of good work. They see advertisements for the Shrine hospitals and the Masonic homes for the elderly; many view it as a fraternal organization, kind of an advanced boy scouts. One survey said that many men get into it out of social reasons; their friends are in it; or they think it is a good place to network and do business.

What Freemasonry is, claimed in their own books, is a revival of the ancient mystery religions of Egypt and Balbak, and from Persia and India. Albert Pike in his "Morals and Dogma" and Albert Mackey in his "Encyclopedia of Freemasonry" say that masonry is a religion and that every Masonic lodge is a temple of religion. It is interesting that many Christians have gotten into this religion not understanding how pagan it is.

For example, in a large church in Texas, the elders went to their pastor when they heard that a guest, who has written against Freemasonry, was to speak and asked that the booking be cancelled. It turned out that almost all of the elders were Masons of local lodges, the Sunday School superintendent was the Supreme Potentate of a Shrine, and many members of the congregation belonged to these organizations. They were given the facts, references to their own 'secret' documents and books, and cross references to Scripture on the subject. They held an emergency meeting which lasted unti 4 in the morning. After studying these discrepancies, they returned to the pastor and told him that every one of them had resigned from their lodges.

This is happening all over America and the world. The Masons, by their own statistics, have gone in the 1980's from 4 million members to under 2 million members in 1996 (according to the Dallas Morning News). As Masons examine their own writings, and look at what Freemasonry is teaching, they realize it is not compatible with being a Biblical follower of Jesus Christ.


Where Lodge Initiations and Rituals Originate


Everyone who joins the local lodge joins what is called the Blue Lodge, the meeting center, and has to go through an initiation ceremony. Every Mason, including those in our churches today, have gone through this initiation; it is the only way you can get into the lodge. The first thing that happens is that a blindfold is put on them, a noose (called a cabletoll) is hung on their neck, their shirt is opened to bare their chest, and they are brought to the outer door of the lodge. There, a sharp point (of a compass or a dagger) is placed on their chest. Someone then asks, "Who comes?" to which candidate states "A poor, blind beggar looking to move from darkness to the light of Freemasonry." They are then brought (pulled by the noose) into the Masonic lodge where they must bow at an altar. Behind the altar stands a man they call the Worshipful Master of the Lodge (the leader of the lodge). Again the candidate makes his plea for Freemasonry. After answering a series of questions, the mason to be takes a series of blood oaths and promises not to reveal the secrets of Freemasonry that he will learn -- upon having his throat cut from ear to ear.

These are some of the actual oaths a Mason must take: In the first degree of the Blue Lodge, "Binding myself under no less a penalty, than having my throat cut across, my tongue torn out from its roots and buried in the rough sands of the sea..." In the second degree, "Binding myself under no less a penalty, than that of having my left breast torn open, my heart plucked out and given as prey to the wild beasts of the field and the foul of the air..." In the third degree (Master Mason Degree), "Binding myself under no less a penalty, than that of having my body severed in twain, my bowels taken from thence and burned into ashes..."

For a Christian to go through this, you have to ask several questions: How can a follower of Jesus Christ, go to a Masonic Lodge, ask for membership, and say I am lost in darkness and I need the light of Freemasonry? If you read First John chapter One, it says, If you claim that you are lost in darkness the Light (of Jesus Christ) is not in you and you are living a lie.

Secondly: How can a Christian bow at an altar before a man that is called the Worshipful Master? Jesus said, You cannot serve two masters. There is only one Worshipful Master and that is Jesus Christ.

Lastly: How can a Christian take a pagan blood oath, swearing to have your throat cut from ear to ear, your heart given to the beasts of the field, your body cut in two and your bowels thrown into the sea? Those pagan blood oaths were forbidden by Jesus in Matthew chapter 5 and in the book of James.


Going Up?

And these aren't only in the initial initiations; as a Mason goes through the higher degrees o the Scottish and York rites, the oaths are more hideous. Once completing the three degrees of the Blue Lodge, a mason is then allowed to go into either the Scottish rite of Freemasonry which has 32 degrees or the York rite which has 13 degrees. These are advanced degrees where you learn the secrets of Freemasonry. As one progresses through the degree work of these rites, they tell you that you are on a quest to find the lost name of God.

The Masons have this story that somehow in the building of Solomon's Temple, the architect Hiram Abif lost the name of God. Masons claim that they have found this name and only very advanced Masons know the secret name of God. In a Masonic ceremony this name is whispered by three men in the lodge to one another. The name is "J-B-O", or "Jobulin"; three names put together -- Jehovah, Baal, and Osiris. Jehovah, the God of Israel, Isaac and Jacob; Baal, the fertility god of Balbak that Elijah fought against (and beat); and, Osiris, the Egyptian sun god of phallic worship. The Masons have combined this into a three headed monster which they say is the Trinity. Well, Jesus is not going to share His glory with any other; but the Masons attempt to do this. Is it a demotion of the Messiah or a promotion of the other two gods?


Who's Your God?

As a Mason goes through the 32 degrees of the Scottish rite, he ends up giving worship to every Egyptian pagan god, the gods of Persia, gods of India, Greek gods, Babylonian gods, and others. As you come to the 17th degree, the Masons claim that they will give you the password that will give him entrance at the judgment day to the Masonic deity, the great architect of the universe. It is very interesting that this secret password is "Abaddon".

Now I've heard that name before, so I looked it up in the Bible. Check it out for yourself, in Revelation chapter 9; it says, "The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss [the bottomless pit]...and smoke came out of the Abyss like that of a great furnace..." (It goes on to describe those in the abyss, then continues) They had a king over them, the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon..." The 'angel' of the Abyss (Hell) is really the chief demon whose name is Abaddon. Masons claim then, that the diety they worship is Abaddon! Not God. Not Jesus. But the number one servant of Lucifer (Satan).

Masons have mixed idolatry, paganism, the occult, fertility cults, demonology, and put it into a blender and come up with the Masonic religion. It is not of God; it is a false religion.


Can You Believe This ?

There are Christians, all over the world, who even today, suffer greatly and some have even give up their lives because they refuse to compromise their faith in Christ. And yet, professing Christians who are involved in the highest ranks of Freemasonry honor the persecution of Christians.

When a Mason gets to the highest degree of the Scottish rite or the York rite, he is then allowed to go into what is called the Shrine. You may have seen them in parades, wearing their red fezzes with the sword and crescent emblem on them. You hear about the Shrine circus and the burn centers for children run by the Shriners. People think isn't this a nice fun organization, they do so much good for crippled children and others. But . . .

In order for a person to become a Shriner, he must not only go through all the degrees of Masonry, make all those blood-curdling oaths, worship gods who are not gods except they are of Satan, but he must make a blood both of allegiance to Allah as his god and Mohammed as his prophet.

The Shriner is then given a red fez with an Islamic sword and cresent jeweled on the front of it. This originates from 7th century Arabia when the Moslems, under the leadership of Mohammed, slaughtered all Christians who would not bow down to Allah. Allah, by the way, was not another (generic) name given to God by Mohammed; Allah is the tribal deity --the moon god-- of Mohammed; it was the name of the god in the tribe that Mohammed was born into. That is why every mosque today has a crescent moon on the top of its spire.

Now when Mohammed's army of men, out to slaughter all the 'infidels', came to the city of Fez, in Morocco, they found a community of Christians. After killing all the Christians there with their Islamic-style swords, they took their hats (called a fez) and dipped them in the blood of the Christians, and wore the fezzes throughout the land glorying in their victory over Christianity. Today Shriners put on red fezzes (representing the hats dipped in the blood of Christians) with the Islamic sword and crescent showing their allegiance to Allah and Mohammed (and the defeat of Christianity). If you are a Christian, and you are a Mason or a Shriner reading this, you have no business being part of a lodge, no business being part of a Shrine. I encourage you, for your own eternal sake to repent of it and get out of it immediately!


Will Building Hospitals Get You Into Heaven?

Many men have gotten involved with Freemasonry and do not (did not) know what they were really getting into. Yet, you have to ask, how could they go through the first initiation, and if they truly are Christians, not know this is wrong and diametrically opposed to God's Word. Are your loyalties with Jesus Christ or are they with the lodge?

One Mason, when asked, "If you were to die tonight, and stand before God, and He were to ask you 'Why should I let you into my Heaven'" said that he guessed he would have to tell God that "I was a good Mason". You see, many Masons believe that Masonry is a system of morality. Masonry teaches that through one's good works Masons can obtain the 'celestial lodge' above, the 'heavenly kingdom'.

Most masons, especially those who are professing Christians, would point us to the fact of all the good works they do. They'd ask, 'How can you say that we are not Christians?' Look at the Shrine homes for the aged, look at the work we do with children, all the good things, don't they count? There's nothing wrong with all of these things, but they are not going to save you. What gives us eternal life is faith in Jesus by His Grace only. Ephesians 2:8-9 says: "For it is by grace [unmerited favor] you are saved, through faith -- and that, not of yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no man can boast." Masons pride themselves in all their works, but St. Paul tells us in Romans 10:1-3 "Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness."

Jesus said on the cross: "It is finished!" There is nothing more that Masons -- or anyone -- can do, to add to what is already done. All one has to do is receive this free gift that Christ purchased for us.


http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...ed_fezzies.htm

This was written obviously to stir crap into a poit that is just fine by itself, and someone wants to make something of nothing.

A person can read into something anything they want to, but if you actually understand Free maonsry, you would see that this is all noting but horse crap.

There are Zealots and detractors everywhere, in Chritianity , as well as other religions, and when one realizes that , one will understand that when a person writes stuff like that, they are not seeing the whole pitcure, onlyu explaining what they THINK is right .
I cold go through this in deatial and explain the whole thing and why it is wrong, but will not on an open forum.
However, if a poerson wants to take this stuff, call themselves an expert on
Free Masonanry , and spread this views on it, that's fine by me.

The fact that our membership may be shrinking is NOT simply because hristians are starting to wonder about Free Masonry itself, although that may very well be ONE reason, but the fact remains that times themselves are changing , and many people are not doing things they used to in life.

Personally speaking, i would rather be a meber of an orginization of 1 million with all its members working hard for the better of it, than an orginization of 6 million with 4 million doing nothing .
Cat

[nekred]

Hey Cat, I have always respected and appreciated your posts.

You can disagree with someone and leave a post that explain your point without malice. Kind of a gift being able to tell someone to go to hell in such a way thay are looking forward to the trip.

In this thread my respect for you has grown further. You have been a very reasonable person and taken the humourous jibes sent your way with mix of your own dry wit and humour which I appreciate.

Then when a thread is posted with an opinion from someone who is very "anti-mason" and you respond in such a calm, intelligent, educated way it makes me see the vlues you hold as a person.

There is such a good quote I will make.... "...By their deeds ye shall know them..." The part of freemasonry that is public is the good they have done for the community. The way they interact with the rest of the world is to provide something beneficial. They don't actively recruit like many organisations who go door to door. They leave positive influences behind that the rest of society can benefit from.

So Cat I think you a great representative for any organisation you belong to and if the organisation(s) you may belong to have helped you to gain the character you have then it obviously has a positive impact.

Cheers!..

[catnthehat]

Thank you for the kind words!
A
Now, anybody know where I can buy a hat stretcher in town, all of a sudden My hat seems to have shrunk??!!
seriously though, there are so many half truths, mistruths, runours and legends about free masonry ( 95% from non Masons) tha it boggles the mind!
I was shown "photographic proof " last year that both Obama AND th ePope were free masons, because of the way they shook hands, as well as bith the elder and Younger Bush Preseidents, neither of which is true, ESPECIALY the first one!
One Bush is a member , one is not, but for someone who is not a mason to see what they THINK is a Masonic handshake and declare two people Free Masons is , well, hilaripous to say the least.

Cat

[30Cal]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

This was written obviously to stir crap into a poit that is just fine by itself, and someone wants to make something of nothing.

A person can read into something anything they want to, but if you actually understand Free maonsry, you would see that this is all noting but horse crap.

There are Zealots and detractors everywhere, in Chritianity , as well as other religions, and when one realizes that , one will understand that when a person writes stuff like that, they are not seeing the whole pitcure, onlyu explaining what they THINK is right .
I cold go through this in deatial and explain the whole thing and why it is wrong, but will not on an open forum.
However, if a poerson wants to take this stuff, call themselves an expert on
Free Masonanry , and spread this views on it, that's fine by me.

The fact that our membership may be shrinking is NOT simply because hristians are starting to wonder about Free Masonry itself, although that may very well be ONE reason, but the fact remains that times themselves are changing , and many people are not doing things they used to in life.

Personally speaking, i would rather be a meber of an orginization of 1 million with all its members working hard for the better of it, than an orginization of 6 million with 4 million doing nothing .
Cat

Like I posted " possibly worth the read & research, you be the judge?"

Not all of us choose to believe that this is all nothing but "horse crap". I'm certain there are some people out there who have at one time or another questioned if they have a soul, the issues of worship, God, heaven or hell...I would consider that many people at one time or another have taken these issues into serious consideration, while others do not. That's the beauty of free choice.

Even Freemasons are apparently supposed to take oaths, worship, and spiritual things into serious consideration, are they not? This means they deal with spiritual things?

How much of everything I read is true, I'm not certain...but as it has been said many times before ignorance is bliss.

As to whether an expert wrote what I posted earlier, I really couldn't answer that question. However, there are books out in circulation that were written by previous members of Freemasonary that attest some of what these articles describes. Not being an expert, I had some of these things confirmed when as a peace officer I had members of the lodge trying to recruit me. Likewise did my father who was a Chief of Police.

I don't quite understand what this statement is referring to "I would rather be a meber of an orginization of 1 million with all its members working hard for the better of it, than an orginization of 6 million with 4 million doing nothing." Subsequently, the awesome thing about this statement is that if there are only 2 million of the 6 million doing something, I assume for a good cause towards mankind, then that makes 1 million more than the initial 1 million you first mentioned working towards the cause of their own members? Who knows maybe the 4 million that you mentioned should not be calculated together with the other 2 millions, as they may be false members trying to lead others, who want to join the 2million, astray.

I have a lot of questions I would like to have a member of the Freemasonary answer if any would like take their belief seriously.

1. Does Freemasonry declare that its Deity, the "Great Architect of the Universe" can be worshipped by all men, whether they be Buddhists, Christians, Muslims,or Hindus?

2. Does Freemasonry state that their God is Nature in various forms?

3. Does Freemasonry look to the occult Kabalah for its myths, secrets and symbols?

4. Does Freemasonry teach that man can be saved by his own labours?

5. Does Freemasonry associate the Christian God known through Jesus Christ with the pagan fertility gods such as Ba'al and Horus?

6. Does Freemasonry require that men swear vile blood oaths on a Bible in the name of God involving mutilation and murder of men?

7. Does Freemasonry link its members in solemn, spiritual bondage to one another, irrespective of members creeds?

8. Does Freemasonry claim that it seeks to improve the natural man only; thus, incorrectly channelling by bad interpretation vital spiritual terms?

9. Does Freemasonry insists on keeping its valuable truths bound under the most serious of secret oaths and available to only a few? Should valuable truths not be shared with all mankind?

10. Does Freemasonry demands that its members call its leaders titles like "Worshipful Master", and kneel before them?

Please feel free to answer, sounds like quite serious spiritual matters to me. IMO more important than horse excrement.

More possible interesting reading material or not?

TESTIMONY OF FORMER FREEMASON CHAPLAIN -- WHY HE HAD TO LEAVE MASONRY

http://www.cuttingedge.org/free004.html

http://www.ephesians5-11.org/gllink.htm


Hope everyone makes the right decision concerning this matter...take care

[catnthehat]

Lots of questions for sure, and I WILL answer them truthfully and to the best of my ability, but at this moment have to go offline for a bit and will PM you with my email later!:>)
Cat

[cover]

The way I try to make sense of the difference between religion and spirituality is
- religion - what you are told to believe in
-spirituality - what you choose to believe in

Is that an accurate way to look at it ?

[riderpride55]

30 CAL sure opened a can of worms, there was too much info in his post

Cat, thanks for all of your posts and all of your knowledge. your right about lots of Christian not doing anything.

I agree with 30 cal on lots of points. the main issue is. if you are strong in your Christian faith, there is no way you can be a member of any other group with oaths, rituals, swearing on things. there is no point trying to slag other groups or prove or disprove anything, the key is to be stronger in your faith and shine a brighter light.

I'm strong in my Christian faith and I would never join any other fraternity.

does it mean I can't associate/be friends/drink beer or wine with/fish/hunt/eat dinner with them? nope, just look who Jesus hung out with

[wolf308]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

So, is it really a secret society, dedicated to world domination ?

Grizz

they along with the zionist jews which are fake jews deserved to be chained to eachother on the edge of a bridge and shot out of hand dragging their partner down with them. their the MFs behind the usa s global designs of a one world goverment in which all are rights are stripped , the mark of the beast and basically the worst parts of the bible. look up revelations 2:9(i think) talks about a synagouge of satan ....and fake jews. ive said enough, punch up the illuminati,evil MFs . our complacency is playing right into their hands , they dont even really hide it , its there for you to find out ,just look for yourselves.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by 30Cal

Possibly worth the read & research, you be the judge?


Men in Obscene Red Fezzes!

I am going to tell you things here that you may have never heard, and some which will be hard to believe. .....

and a lot of yadda yadda and then we get too:

..................
Jesus said on the cross: "It is finished!" There is nothing more that Masons -- or anyone -- can do, to add to what is already done. All one has to do is receive this free gift that Christ purchased for us.


http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...ed_fezzies.htm

Nice long diatribe.

Perhaps as a christian you can explain to us Numbers 31:1-54.

Which in short tells us the story of Moses telling his buddies to kill all the men, women and children of the neighboring tribe. Oh, and should his men find any virgins, they can keep them for themselves.

His buddies found 32,000 virgins.

That is a whole bunch better then those poor muslims who have to martyr themselves to get 72 virgins in the afterlife.

So, what great christian teachings are there in that part of your bible?

[30Cal]

Originally Posted by riderpride55

30 CAL sure opened a can of worms, there was too much info in his post

Cat, thanks for all of your posts and all of your knowledge. your right about lots of Christian not doing anything.

I agree with 30 cal on lots of points. the main issue is. if you are strong in your Christian faith, there is no way you can be a member of any other group with oaths, rituals, swearing on things. there is no point trying to slag other groups or prove or disprove anything, the key is to be stronger in your faith and shine a brighter light.

I'm strong in my Christian faith and I would never join any other fraternity.

does it mean I can't associate/be friends/drink beer or wine with/fish/hunt/eat dinner with them? nope, just look who Jesus hung out with

Can of worms...interesting term. Thats what you use for fishing isn't it? Nets sometimes work good also. Love to fish

[riderpride55]

Originally Posted by avb3

Nice long diatribe.

Perhaps as a christian you can explain to us Numbers 31:1-54.

So, what great christian teachings are there in that part of your bible?

"that part of the Bible" is also part of the Jewish faith, and Muslims also refer to "that part" might want to ask "them" for some insight as well.

[30Cal]

Originally Posted by cover

The way I try to make sense of the difference between religion and spirituality is
- religion - what you are told to believe in
-spirituality - what you choose to believe in

Is that an accurate way to look at it ?

Religion might be explained as fundamental set of beliefs, creeds, or practices generally agreed upon by an individual or group of people. It can include Buddhism, Christianity, Jehovah Witness, Mormons, Masons, Catholics, or any body of people that practise what they believe.

Often people will identify a person as being a religious man or women, without understanding that the term encompasses many beliefs or faiths. Whereas, the person they might be referring to in respect to their faith should be identified by the religion they believe in. For example, in Antioch (a major center of Hellenistic Greece) the disciples were first called Christian due to their belief in Christ, therefore, placing a title upon this group to define what religion it is.

In respect to spirituality, some believe everyone has a spirit or soul and tend to use this interchangeably. Others feel the soul is the conscience part of man that is affected by spirit whether it is good or bad. Souls might be seen as a collective group embodied by spirit, so when speaking about spirituality one might be referring to the spirit that moves or directs the soul. Christians are to be in one spirit who is Christ, likewise are other religions, although some believe there are only two spirits. The spirit of this world and the spirit of God which is encompassed for Christians in the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)

Hope this helps?

[avb3]

Originally Posted by riderpride55

"that part of the Bible" is also part of the Jewish faith, and Muslims also refer to "that part" might want to ask "them" for some insight as well.

Obfuscation didn't answer the question.

Now, try and do the christian thing and be honest with your answer. If you can't, say so. If you can't support the whole book, that's OK, but say so, don't hide.

[cover]

Interesting... could you explain your thoughts on why the belief in re-incarnation was removed from every religion except Buddhism in/around the year 500 A.D. ?

[avb3]

Originally Posted by cover

Interesting... could you explain your thoughts on why the belief in re-incarnation was removed from every religion except Buddhism in/around the year 500 A.D. ?

Errrr.... I would think there are a number of million of Hindu's who would say your comment above is just plain wrong.

[cover]

Originally Posted by avb3

Errrr.... I would think there are a number of million of Hindu's who would say your comment above is just plain wrong.

Ahhh crap... I meant to type Hinduism/Buddhism.... MY mistake.... Is my comment accurate now ?

[riderpride55]

Originally Posted by avb3

Obfuscation didn't answer the question.

Now, try and do the christian thing and be honest with your answer. If you can't, say so. If you can't support the whole book, that's OK, but say so, don't hide.

my main point in this thread is, if you strong in the Christian faith, you would not choose the be a mason. 30cal explained why.

quoting old testament scriptures has nothing to do with this thread, your trying to de-rail and send this thread into lock down. that's too bad.

here is a link to a good commentary on the scriptures that your talking about. I'm not going to post the text, because its off topic.


http://rondaniel.com/library/04-Numb...mbers3101.html

[avb3]

Originally Posted by riderpride55

my main point in this thread is, if you strong in the Christian faith, you would not choose the be a mason. 30cal explained why.

quoting old testament scriptures has nothing to do with this thread, your trying to de-rail and send this thread into lock down. that's too bad.

here is a link to a good commentary on the scriptures that your talking about. I'm not going to post the text, because its off topic.


http://rondaniel.com/library/04-Numb...mbers3101.html

Actually, quoting old testament scriptures has everything to do with this thread, as the discussion is whether a christian can be a freemason.

Once anyone person starts quoting bible stuff, it's fair game.

So, if one is christian, one either believes the literal bible, or one believes in it in an metaphorical or allegorical sense.

The literalists, which we have seen so far, will quote chapter and verse and dissertations supporting that literal view.

In that case, it is only fair to respond with other chapters and verses which may cause some difficulties to explain.

Now, should the christian be discussing the metaphorical/allegorical viewpoint, that is an entire different subject.

The bible does teach things, but not all of them are very acceptable, are they. I mean, really, when is the last time we stoned somebody for not observing the sabbath? Or for someone committing adultry?

Those are commanded by a literal reading of the bible. I would hope no christian stands by those teachings, just as I would hope no muslim does either.

I'm pretty sure there is no freemason who does. But I will let any freemason on the board answer that one.

[Pioneer2]

Satan knows the Bible word for word better than any man.He is able quote scripture to sew seeds of doubt and manipulate verses to pervert/twist their meaning.Creating discord +confusion is his style.If you side with him ,he wins .if you don't decide ,he wins or if you are an atheist he wins.They don't call him the Prince of Liars for nothing.And there is only one way out.... faith in Christ...........I'm not better than anyone else just forgiven...........Harold

[avb3]

Originally Posted by Pioneer2

Satan knows the Bible word for word better than any man.He is able quote scripture to sew seeds of doubt and manipulate verses to pervert/twist their meaning.Creating discord +confusion is his style.If you side with him ,he wins .if you don't decide ,he wins or if you are an atheist he wins.They don't call him the Prince of Liars for nothing.And there is only one way out.... faith in Christ...........I'm not better than anyone else just forgiven...........Harold

So, I take it your a literalist?

Now, about that stoning stuff? Still valid? Or?

I'm pretty sure Freemasons don't advocate that.

[30Cal]

Originally Posted by avb3

Nice long diatribe.

Perhaps as a christian you can explain to us Numbers 31:1-54.

Which in short tells us the story of Moses telling his buddies to kill all the men, women and children of the neighboring tribe. Oh, and should his men find any virgins, they can keep them for themselves.

His buddies found 32,000 virgins.

That is a whole bunch better then those poor muslims who have to martyr themselves to get 72 virgins in the afterlife.

So, what great christian teachings are there in that part of your bible?

That is still being done today, isn't it? Kill the Iranian tribe, the Iraqi tribe, the Taliban, or any tribe that might threaten our borders, culture or system of belief. Why? To sustain a culture or Nation in its way of life; therefore, preventing it from becoming assimilated or overtaken by another tribe or Nation into its way of thinking.

I'm told that Moses believed in God, the Great "I Am"...not the great I was or the great I maybe. If this is true then he knew who had the power and could see what would happen in the future if the tribes around him were not destroyed. Don't get confused about the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament; they are one of the same. The book may have changed (Old to New) but the author didn't. The New book entails new battle plan, consider what war has ever been won by using the same battle plan. The new plan shows the signs and the times of the last days that are apparently now being fulfilled within this generation. The plan also clearly indicates that the battle has been won, through the redemptive blood of Jesus Christ. However, the plan has to go on into fulfillment. I'm told we all should be aware of the sign of the fig tree, as it bears its fruit in its season.

IMO Moses must have had some very strong backing to go up against the larger numbers of tribes around him, to have succeeded. So was Moses' success done in his strength or by God's strength? What would God's purpose be then? Would it be to protect those that He loved, to keep them set apart from the influence of the world (the opposing tribes or spirit of this world), so that he might have a people or Nation unto Himself. Did God not move this insight about the history Moses through generations for those who believe, love, and receive him through his Son Jesus Christ, so that they might have a greater understand into the way that He thinks? A man will not search for water unless he is truly thirsty, and if he is wise he will look for water that will make him thirst no more.

In respect to the virgin question, we would have to understand Old Testament History, and some New Testament insight. Virgins were often considered pure or undefiled in that they had not joined in union with a man. In the Old Testament men were consider the head or leader over there family (sounds like the present day Muslims doesn't it?). However, women are not to be considered as property, they are to be cherished and loved, and seen as equal partners in salvation.

The women from the tribes Moses attacked would likely be kept separate from men of their tribes, until joined by coitis to a man following some type of marriage ritual. I've been told the two become one when joined in union, so it is likely that the wife would adapt to her husband's way of thinking. With this in mind, would it not be easier to take a virgin as a wife from a tribe you have conquered, rather than women who had the mind or way of thinking of your previous enemy? It would be like sleeping beside your enemy.

Another thought or consideration for study was that tribes surrounding Moses possibly did human sacrifices with virgins to their Gods. Could this account for such the large numbers of virgins?

[Pioneer2]

You are free to spend eternity anywhere you wish.We have all been given free will to choose.No one can use the excuse,"I never knew" on Judgment Day.I am responsible for my own actions not something somebody else did centuries ago or today for that matter....no malice intended or implied..Harold

[avb3]

Originally Posted by 30Cal

That is still being done today, isn't it? Kill the Iranian tribe, the Iraqi tribe, the Taliban, or any tribe that might threaten our borders, culture or system of belief. Why? To sustain a culture or Nation in its way of life; therefore, preventing it from becoming assimilated or overtaken by another tribe or Nation into its way of thinking.

Except Moses's tribe was the invader. They thought of themselves as "special", or at least Moses had them coached that way.

I'm told that Moses believed in God, the Great "I Am"...not the great I was or the great I maybe.

Are you referring to the "I am the Lord of Light", "I, even I, am he that knoweth the paths to heaven", "I have come that I may remove all evil which is on you" and "I am the heir of endless time"?

Sounds familiar?

It was written about 1700 years before the biblical birth of Christ. It refers to Horus, the Egyptian savior, who turned water into wine, raised El-arus from the dead, walked on water, was born of a virgin, who died and was resurrected three days later and then went to the heavens. (Egyptian Book of the Dead).

The Christ story is not original. Dionysus, Mithra and and a number of other saviors had virgin births and were resurrected, many 1000's of years before the Christ story. It is not original if you have any knowledge of comparative religions.

What promulgated Christianity was a great salesman in Paul, and later on, the codification of the Trinity by St. Augustine. Mind you, the bible as we know it today wasn't cobbled together until the Council of Nicaea back in the 4th century.

By men, who then went and burned all other gospels and religious writings that existed.

Holy, weren't they? What a shock when the Gospels of Thomas, Judas and others were discovered at Nag Hammadi in 1945.

Who knew that what the Council of Nicaea tried to destroy still existed.

So, what teachings does one get from that?

[avb3]

Originally Posted by Pioneer2

You are free to spend eternity anywhere you wish.We have all been given free will to choose.No one can use the excuse,"I never knew" on Judgment Day.I am responsible for my own actions not something somebody else did centuries ago or today for that matter....no malice intended or implied..Harold

No offense taken at all. Faith is the believe in the unproven, and strong faith requires setting aside rational knowledge.

I will always defend your right to have faith in what ever you feel the need to, as long as it does not infringe on any of my rights.

I may question some of the tenements that are promulgated, but then, I expect my thoughts to be questioned in return.

I do wonder though that when someone takes a scriptural book literally, why not defend all of it, and not just the parts that fit within either modern society or your personal believe system?

Stoning people is repugnant to most civilized people today, although some faiths (Muslim usually) in some parts of the world still think it is acceptable.

Is that a part of the literal interpetation of the bible you don't follow? After all, Christ never said anything about changing that part of the old teachings, did he?

[30Cal]

Originally Posted by cover

Interesting... could you explain your thoughts on why the belief in re-incarnation was removed from every religion except Buddhism in/around the year 500 A.D. ?

I have not found any indication that the thought of reincarnation existed in the Bible or the books of the Christian faith (Old or New Testament). The book of Hebrews states "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment" (NIV Hebrews 9:27).

Reincarnation denies the redemptive power of Jesus Christ by attempting to make His sacrifice null or void. It tries to do this through an ancient theory of transmigration. This theory implies that all souls are involved in a cyclic series of rebirths that will eventually purge the soul of evil through sufferings according to the Law of Karma. In retrospect this mean that a soul could free itself from evil through a series of rebirths until s/he is finally absorbed into an unconscious reality (sometimes referred to as God). This would enable a person to believe they can resolve their sufferings with evil outside the redemptive power of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

Eastern and Western philosophers embraced this idea of Karmic transmigration, without taking into consideration their inability to measure the world's population. They considered the world's population to be considerably stable. This would give weight to their theory that as one soul left, it would again return possibly in another form (person, animal, plant...etc.) in accordance to Karmic Law. Therefore, there would always be enough souls to be born into all infant bodies, as there was a corresponding number of deaths and births.

It is possible that some religions during the conquest and exploration of the earth came to the conclusion that a formidable amount of rebirths seemed to outweigh the number of deaths, as populations and species tended to increase rather than cease existence. This would not account for the idea of souls being able to purge themselves of evil, as multiple souls were coming into existence.

I look at it like this: An apple falls to the ground only to decay. Does it return, or do only its seeds remain from which more apples grow. That apple had its time, from the earth it came and from the earth it will return. The fruit of that apple are often known by it's seeds.

Hope this helps?

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by riderpride55

my main point in this thread is, if you strong in the Christian faith, you would not choose the be a mason. 30cal explained why.

quoting old testament scriptures has nothing to do with this thread, your trying to de-rail and send this thread into lock down. that's too bad.

here is a link to a good commentary on the scriptures that your talking about. I'm not going to post the text, because its off topic.


http://rondaniel.com/library/04-Numb...mbers3101.html

30cal explained nothing when it comes to why a person who was a strong believe in the Christian faith would not become a Mason, except maybe his own idea.
There are many members of Free Masonry that are very devout Christians , in fact , I'm not sure if many of the members here, have grasped what Free masonry is all about, or what any of our ceremonies, oaths , or any of our other customs mean.
On the other hand, there seem to be lots of pre-concieved "expert" opinions posted, as well as some honest questions .

The fact that I said I would rather have a smaller amount of members working than having a large membership and most ddoing nothing was in fact , reas to think that the ones not workingn for the good of Free Masonry could in fact be plotting against it, or some other bad thins - the fact of the matter is when I said nothing, I MEANT thata they do nothing n, not good, not bad, just nothing , EXCEPT to proclaim themselves as Masons.

To that end, I started answering the questions posed by 30Cal, (originally I was going to PM you), but as I got further into them, and had a set of what I thought were very good and simple answers, I realized that the answers I had could be and would be construed in several different ways , some of which would have me being accused of paganism, witchcraft, and other nefarious forms of humanity.

The big one, for me, was at the end of the post where it was mentioned that the writings ( or accusations, whatever) were written by a Chaplain who left the craft and why he left it.
that is his interpretation only .
I am not saying that the particular person who wrote that was a bad person , or that he had something against Free Masonry, But I AM a Chaplain in the Craft, have been for some time, take my office as a Chaplain VERY seriously, and will continue to do so.

I am God Fearing in the sense that I believe in God as the Grand Archetect of the Universe, do not practice witchcraft, not do I go around mutilating people.
it is not any more complicated than that - unless someone wants to read into stuff, form conspiracy theories, pronounce us as evil, self serving World controlling devil worshippers, or anything else they want to call us.

Cat

[Pioneer2]

You need only look at the Western Countries originally founded on Christian principles .Where they were morally then and where they are now.Courts that favor the criminal and punish the victim.No accountability for one's actions.Abhorant sexual behavior with children etc.I think that stoning applies in this case instead of a cell/apartment overlooking a playground......JMO

[30Cal]

Originally Posted by avb3

No offense taken at all. Faith is the believe in the unproven, and strong faith requires setting aside rational knowledge.

I will always defend your right to have faith in what ever you feel the need to, as long as it does not infringe on any of my rights.

I may question some of the tenements that are promulgated, but then, I expect my thoughts to be questioned in return.

I do wonder though that when someone takes a scriptural book literally, why not defend all of it, and not just the parts that fit within either modern society or your personal believe system?

Stoning people is repugnant to most civilized people today, although some faiths (Muslim usually) in some parts of the world still think it is acceptable.

Is that a part of the literal interpetation of the bible you don't follow? After all, Christ never said anything about changing that part of the old teachings, did he?

Your stuck in the Old, time to move onto the New. Does the UFC throw a lion into the cage or in the collosseum against the gladiator to see who wins. No!!!!! But people still love blood sports, they've just convinced themselves that they're more humane because one man beating the other to a pulp is OK if he doesn't kill his apponent. Maybe I should take my chariot out for a ride tonight, afterall it gets better gas mileage than my tacoma. (All said in jest - please enjoy)

[30Cal]

[QUOTE=catnthehat;1292436]30cal explained nothing when it comes to why a person who was a strong believe in the Christian faith would not become a Mason, except maybe his own idea.
There are many members of Free Masonry that are very devout Christians , in fact , I'm not sure if you have grasped what Free masonry is all about.
Cat[/QUOTE

Sorry Cat, not all my own ideas although I do agree with some of them. Search the web and see what previous members of Freemasonary, who are now Christians say.

I just think everyone would likely be better off if they make an informed decision. Get information from all sides, then make your decision.

P.S. And to those who are Christains (those who have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour) I would strongly suggest that you pray and ask for direction into this matter before joining Freemasonry. This would include those who are Freemasons. Great verse to consider: Study and show yourself approved...rightly dividing the word (2 Timothy 2:15)

Thanks for the link riderpride55