Occupy protests

[TheKi]

Me, well... its not the governments fault the were laid off or fired and protesting wont do any thing, the defaced our countries flag on the 11th( my grand father and others like him fight for freedoms like being able to protest just so the protesters can deface our flag) they have no respect.

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by TheKi

Wating for the -40 weather is cowardly,and whats to stop the protesters from cumming back in spring? The protesters are breaking many bylaws and the mayor is only enforcing some bylaws hoping he wont look bad in the eyes of the 50 some protesters rather than the rest of the population. The park is there for public enjoyment, do you realy think people would want to use it after the protesters defalcated all over it?

Perhaps our RIGHTS as outlined in federal law trump petty by-law.

Perhaps it is better to let a few fringe idiots protest ineffectively than to prove their point and encourage them with a heavy hand.

Finally, the argument that they should go to Sierra Leone, Cuba, wartime Russia etc to experience something to complain about is a total crock.



The point is to stop things before they get that bad. Using your reasoning, we should wait until we are squarely under the thumb of fascist, collectivist, dictators before we stand up to a system that is open to abuse.

Littlearcher- you can't expect to be taken seriously if you cant spell. You can't criticize others about laziness if you can't spell. Spelling is the very first step in conveying an idea to another human.



You incidentally make a good point about "defalcated".

Siht turns to dust, oil spills and other industrial sources of contamination do not, so perhaps we should concern ourselves with things that matter, and less about some people who don't matter camping out and exercising those rights which in part define what IS freedom in this country.

Again, if it costs the city $50k, good, we should be willing to cough up a lot more to accommodate those people who would venture through a public forum to improve our society, however misguided.

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

How are the 'people' fighting back? By camping out in a city park? I'm not seeing the effectiveness of the plan.

it's all over the media and people on an outdoorsmen forum are talking about it.

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

it's all over the media and people on an outdoorsmen forum are talking about it.

Ah I see now. Nothing has changed..

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

Ah I see now. Nothing has changed..

things like that don't change quickly, but it does bring attention to it, which is what they did and are continuing to do the more people talk about it.

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

things like that don't change quickly, but it does bring attention to it, which is what they did and are continuing to do the more people talk about it.

So are the ceos gonna give back the bonuses. are the corps gonna give back the bailout money. How many new jobs have the protests created?

Plan seems to be working.

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

So are the ceos gonna give back the bonuses. are the corps gonna give back the bailout money. How many new jobs have the protests created?

Plan seems to be working.

maybe you don't understand how these things work, the protests are hoping to raise awareness in the general public, the general public votes for the politicans, hopefully the politicans follow the wishes of the people who vote them in and change things.

today's civics lesson has been brought to you by eastcoast.

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

maybe you don't understand how these things work, the protests are hoping to raise awareness in the general public, the general public votes for the politicans, hopefully the politicans follow the wishes of the people who vote them in and change things.

today's civics lesson has been brought to you by eastcoast.

Redfrog is typically a troll in these threads and offers nothing beyond one liners.

[FishingMOM]

One of the tents burnt down and several were sent to hospital with burns.

[BeeGuy]

That's too bad.

I worked in bush camps a lot when I was younger and have seen many a tent burn down.

Propane heaters and candles have no place in a tent. It's only a matter of time.

Hope their burns aren't too bad.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

Perhaps our RIGHTS as outlined in federal law trump petty by-law.

What Federal Law states I can camp anywhere I want? Please let me know as it will make vacation time more cost effective.

No one on AOF is saying you can't stand around with a sign protesting when ever you want and on public property. You can stand around for 24/7 for all I care. What people are saying is you can not take over a public park and turn it into a slum campground.

Seems simple and reasonable. Would you not agree with the above statements?

[rugatika]

Redfrog contributes deep inciteful commentary on what is going on in many threads in a witty and intelligent manner. Of course when you comment this way, not everyone will have the intellectual capacity to comprehend his point and will mistake it for one line trolling.

Not singling out any specific persons of course and I don't mean it in a derogatory manner at all. Some people are on the upslope of the bell curve and some are on the downslope, that's all.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

That's too bad.

I worked in bush camps a lot when I was younger and have seen many a tent burn down.

Propane heaters and candles have no place in a tent. It's only a matter of time.

Hope their burns aren't too bad.

Yes, agreed, hotknifing can be a dangerous thing to do in a nylon tent. Here's hoping they are OK with only minor injuries, and the greedy corporate taxes that paid for their hospital care treat them well.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

maybe you don't understand how these things work, the protests are hoping to raise awareness in the general public, the general public votes for the politicans, hopefully the politicans follow the wishes of the people who vote them in and change things.

today's civics lesson has been brought to you by eastcoast.

That is where I don't get you. So far I do not see the campers representing anyone but themselves...a very small minority. I don't see any financial support coming from this mysterious ficticious hard done by 99% that a 0.00000001% seem to represent. I don't see any 1% controling my life and my decisions. If 99% hated capitalism...hated job creation by corporations...wanted and believed in freeloading...why did they not vote the NDP in on mass...landslide...blowout?

It is because...as the proverb said...the simplest answer is usually the right answer.

The youth that want what mommy and daddy gave them before leaving home takes hard work...sacrifice and commitment to achieve. There are no handouts from society in the real world. Get a job...work hard and suceed. Whine...complain and slack off and don't succeed. Simple.

Yes...there are always things to improve on...but politicians always follow the people and always will...hense elections. The reason governments bailed out the auto sector is because of the people. It was a poor NDPish thing to do and the governments were stupid. It was not big business. The banks in the US...loaned too much money to risky home owners...then tried to jack their rates...it failed. It DID NOT happen in Canada. Too many of these protesters watch US CNN news and don't have a clue what they are protesting did not occur in Canada.

Cheers

Sun

[Sundancefisher]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle2237652/


http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/15/us/new...html?hpt=us_c2

Protest in New York...YES....tents...NO... Reasonable for everyone...yes it should be.

Same in Canada.

[Sundancefisher]

http://www.calgarysun.com/2011/11/15...gary-squatters

Calgary...ticketing them to death. If any have jobs...this will hurt. If they don't have jobs...good luck getting a drivers license.

[LongDraw]

Our civic politicians are gutless, their strategy is to let the courts decide? What did we vote them in for? Remember this for the next election.

If Nenshi was not in the big office across the street I'd bet he'd be down there right beside them.

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

That is where I don't get you. So far I do not see the campers representing anyone but themselves...a very small minority. I don't see any financial support coming from this mysterious ficticious hard done by 99% that a 0.00000001% seem to represent. I don't see any 1% controling my life and my decisions. If 99% hated capitalism...hated job creation by corporations...wanted and believed in freeloading...why did they not vote the NDP in on mass...landslide...blowout?

It is because...as the proverb said...the simplest answer is usually the right answer.

The youth that want what mommy and daddy gave them before leaving home takes hard work...sacrifice and commitment to achieve. There are no handouts from society in the real world. Get a job...work hard and suceed. Whine...complain and slack off and don't succeed. Simple.

Yes...there are always things to improve on...but politicians always follow the people and always will...hense elections. The reason governments bailed out the auto sector is because of the people. It was a poor NDPish thing to do and the governments were stupid. It was not big business. The banks in the US...loaned too much money to risky home owners...then tried to jack their rates...it failed. It DID NOT happen in Canada. Too many of these protesters watch US CNN news and don't have a clue what they are protesting did not occur in Canada.

Cheers

Sun

you are way over simplifying this issue and the solution, I don't think many are against capatalism except a few on the fringe, what they are protesting is corporate influence.

I said there is no real reason to protest here. I personally don't get it why they are but, im not there so whatever I think doesn't really matter anyways.

the problem in the us has alot of stories, the government wanted more people to own homes, home ownership leads to a better society with less crime and more pride etc, and the banks took advantage of that to make more money on more mortgages, but when it all fell down who paid the bill? was it the politicans out of their pockets? was it the banks did they go bankrupt for taking too many risky loans? no it was the taxpayer who paid the price for it,the banks got bailed out with tax payer mortgages, and the taxpayer saw their neighbourhoods go to s**t and unemployment go way up and the bank ceo's get bonuses and still in business.

I love capatalism it's a great system but what happened in 08 wasn't capatalism it was corporatism, there is no such thing as too big to fail, and if you take a risk and lose then you should suffer for your choice, the big businesses with lobbiest got saved and it came on the backs of mom and pop businesses and johnny taxpayer.

[Sneeze]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

I love capatalism it's a great system but what happened in 08 wasn't capatalism it was corporatism, there is no such thing as too big to fail, and if you take a risk and lose then you should suffer for your choice, the big businesses with lobbiest got saved and it came on the backs of mom and pop businesses and johnny taxpayer.

I agree what happened in the United States with the TBTF corporate's was complete bull krap. However some responsibility has to be placed with the consumer for taking on hundreds of thousands at sub-prime interest only, and expecting to use a house in the suburbia to generate 30k every 2 years.

I do not think many understand the extent of what happened in those crazy days in 2008. The banks "had" to be bailed out. It would not have been just a few banks going under and some people got walking papers... it would have been the end of the boomer generations 60 years of "long term investing".

Trillions of dollars in derivatives would have been triggered on these banks going under, even more money would have been lost by Pension plans (group and individual). It would have been the "great reset" as some people call it.

Most of the voting public doesn't want to see every asset they own evaporate.

Thats why I laugh at these idiots at the plaza. If these TBTF banks had been allowed to fail the welfare, EI & health care they love so much would have vanished into thin air.

I wanted to see them fail. As a young man I would love to have seen the "great reset" happen 3 years ago. Let them fail. Not sure on your age East Coast... but if your within 20 years of retiring I promise you the bailing out of the banks was actually in your favor... regardless of the size of the golden parachutes doled out.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Redfrog contributes deep inciteful commentary .

LOL wow, that's an amqazingly astute mispelling! LOL

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by Sneeze

I agree what happened in the United States with the TBTF corporate's was complete bull krap. However some responsibility has to be placed with the consumer for taking on hundreds of thousands at sub-prime interest only, and expecting to use a house in the suburbia to generate 30k every 2 years.

I do not think many understand the extent of what happened in those crazy days in 2008. The banks "had" to be bailed out. It would not have been just a few banks going under and some people got walking papers... it would have been the end of the boomer generations 60 years of "long term investing".

Trillions of dollars in derivatives would have been triggered on these banks going under, even more money would have been lost by Pension plans (group and individual). It would have been the "great reset" as some people call it.

Most of the voting public doesn't want to see every asset they own evaporate.

Thats why I laugh at these idiots at the plaza. If these TBTF banks had been allowed to fail the welfare, EI & health care they love so much would have vanished into thin air.

I wanted to see them fail. As a young man I would love to have seen the "great reset" happen 3 years ago. Let them fail. Not sure on your age East Coast... but if your within 20 years of retiring I promise you the bailing out of the banks was actually in your favor... regardless of the size of the golden parachutes doled out.

the biggest problem I have with your theory of everyone suffers is that people that didn't do anything wrong,were qualified and got a good mortgage,had a steady job suffered aswell,not everyone was involved but everyone suffered.

this will happene again because the government hasn't fixed the main problem,back in the depression fdr made new rules for the banking industry and they stayed in place til clinton took them out in the late 90's,then it took 10 years for it to happen again,the problem is the banking industry is so entrenched in politics now that obama hasn't set the same rules up again and the ones he did don't have any teeth,maybe he is waiting for his re election to do it who knows,but as it stands it's only a matter of time til it happens again if the rules aren't changed.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

you are way over simplifying this issue and the solution, I don't think many are against capatalism except a few on the fringe, what they are protesting is corporate influence.

I said there is no real reason to protest here. I personally don't get it why they are but, im not there so whatever I think doesn't really matter anyways.

the problem in the us has alot of stories, the government wanted more people to own homes, home ownership leads to a better society with less crime and more pride etc, and the banks took advantage of that to make more money on more mortgages, but when it all fell down who paid the bill? was it the politicans out of their pockets? was it the banks did they go bankrupt for taking too many risky loans? no it was the taxpayer who paid the price for it,the banks got bailed out with tax payer mortgages, and the taxpayer saw their neighbourhoods go to s**t and unemployment go way up and the bank ceo's get bonuses and still in business.

I love capatalism it's a great system but what happened in 08 wasn't capatalism it was corporatism, there is no such thing as too big to fail, and if you take a risk and lose then you should suffer for your choice, the big businesses with lobbiest got saved and it came on the backs of mom and pop businesses and johnny taxpayer.

I agree with you on a lot...however I would challenge you to see that there was a tremendous lobby from the union movement and not just corporations. I would also say that yes...banks messed up big time in the US and over extended bad loans...then forced those paying mortgages...living on the edge...but making payments to default by jacking rates. But you also have to realize...it was not in corporations best interests to prop up the banks with cheap money...it was average people. Without the money...there was not enough in the system for the market to operate on. From car loans, to mortgages...and the biggest thing in the US is health care loans. Without money to lend...the economy drops to horrific low levels.

To blame the generic term "corporations" makes you argument as vague at the protesters. There is no conspiracy of "corporations"...just guys owning or running companies with investors and employees hoping to make money to survive the down turn.

There was no doubt a house cards built in the US...but the rug got pulled out from under it all as a result of general consumer greed to buy on credit. That mentality destroyed the economy. That and the stupid lenders that enabled the bad lending.

IMHO.

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

I agree with you on a lot...however I would challenge you to see that there was a tremendous lobby from the union movement and not just corporations. I would also say that yes...banks messed up big time in the US and over extended bad loans...then forced those paying mortgages...living on the edge...but making payments to default by jacking rates. But you also have to realize...it was not in corporations best interests to prop up the banks with cheap money...it was average people. Without the money...there was not enough in the system for the market to operate on. From car loans, to mortgages...and the biggest thing in the US is health care loans. Without money to lend...the economy drops to horrific low levels.

To blame the generic term "corporations" makes you argument as vague at the protesters. There is no conspiracy of "corporations"...just guys owning or running companies with investors and employees hoping to make money to survive the down turn.

There was no doubt a house cards built in the US...but the rug got pulled out from under it all as a result of general consumer greed to buy on credit. That mentality destroyed the economy. That and the stupid lenders that enabled the bad lending.

IMHO.

And how does this relate to Canada and the protesters at Olympic Plaza?

[Sneeze]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

this will happene again because the government hasn't fixed the main problem,back in the depression fdr made new rules for the banking industry and they stayed in place til clinton took them out in the late 90's,then it took 10 years for it to happen again,the problem is the banking industry is so entrenched in politics now that obama hasn't set the same rules up again and the ones he did don't have any teeth,maybe he is waiting for his re election to do it who knows,but as it stands it's only a matter of time til it happens again if the rules aren't changed.

Agreed. Glass-Steagal should have never been removed. I would love to see it come back with even more vengance... eliminate the bond between savings/loan banks and investment banks. Eliminate prop desk trading by investment banks. Eliminate the ability of investment banks to borrow against customers assets & all leveraging by corporate or personal investment accounts must be backed by physical assets. (real estate, cash, precious metals, or equipment)

It would slow the economy down to a stable pace, so nobody is going to go for it. Leverage and credit make the world go round.

[greylynx]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

I agree with you on a lot...however I would challenge you to see that there was a tremendous lobby from the union movement and not just corporations. I would also say that yes...banks messed up big time in the US and over extended bad loans...then forced those paying mortgages...living on the edge...but making payments to default by jacking rates. But you also have to realize...it was not in corporations best interests to prop up the banks with cheap money...it was average people. Without the money...there was not enough in the system for the market to operate on. From car loans, to mortgages...and the biggest thing in the US is health care loans. Without money to lend...the economy drops to horrific low levels.

To blame the generic term "corporations" makes you argument as vague at the protesters. There is no conspiracy of "corporations"...just guys owning or running companies with investors and employees hoping to make money to survive the down turn.

There was no doubt a house cards built in the US...but the rug got pulled out from under it all as a result of general consumer greed to buy on credit. That mentality destroyed the economy. That and the stupid lenders that enabled the bad lending.

IMHO.

x2

And I think Bush is just as guilty as BO for wrecking things up.

I don't know about Olympic Plaza, but the Edmonton group has been getting funds out of New York according to CHED

[BeeGuy]

I think a great portion of the disconnect in this discussion is the pro's are looking at the movement as a whole, whereas the con's are primarily commenting on the individuals in Calgary.

Of course the small group in Calgary is not representative of the whole and due to the influence of a few may well be regarded as divergent from the initial efforts in New York.

[BeeGuy]

For what it's worth,

I think some of you will appreciate this article.


ARTICLE

[dragon]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

What Federal Law states I can camp anywhere I want? Please let me know as it will make vacation time more cost effective.

No one on AOF is saying you can't stand around with a sign protesting when ever you want and on public property. You can stand around for 24/7 for all I care. What people are saying is you can not take over a public park and turn it into a slum campground.

Seems simple and reasonable. Would you not agree with the above statements?

I would not

Federal law states you have the right to protest. Who are you to tell them that protesting can only be in the form of signs while walking up and down a sidewalk? Technically it could be considered loitering in which many municipalities have bylaws against just as they do against tenting in a park.


I consider myself educated and I still struggle to maintain a focus on the issue at hand.
A while back when the big 3 were in financial trouble, the governments of Canada and the United States bailed them out financially. That upset me as I run a small business and never recieved a bail out of any sort. If your business model leads you to bankruptcy I don't care if you are big or small I shoudln't have to sacrifice my children's education or health care wait times so you can keep your doors open.

The issue is in a bail out like that we did just that. We sacrificed our youth's education, our health care and other government supplied items so that the CEO of General Motors could make more money than the average person does in a decade. I'm sure he is a nice guy and all...

Even with this post I can't touch on the complexity of the issue. Had we not bailed out GM the trickle down effect of General Motors stopping production is unimaginable... It is complex.


In summation the poor choices made by some protesters or even the majority of protesters is becoming the media focus instead of the underlying issue.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

And how does this relate to Canada and the protesters at Olympic Plaza?

None whatsoever...why?

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by dragon

I would not

Federal law states you have the right to protest. Who are you to tell them that protesting can only be in the form of signs while walking up and down a sidewalk? Technically it could be considered loitering in which many municipalities have bylaws against just as they do against tenting in a park.


I consider myself educated and I still struggle to maintain a focus on the issue at hand.
A while back when the big 3 were in financial trouble, the governments of Canada and the United States bailed them out financially. That upset me as I run a small business and never recieved a bail out of any sort. If your business model leads you to bankruptcy I don't care if you are big or small I shoudln't have to sacrifice my children's education or health care wait times so you can keep your doors open.

The issue is in a bail out like that we did just that. We sacrificed our youth's education, our health care and other government supplied items so that the CEO of General Motors could make more money than the average person does in a decade. I'm sure he is a nice guy and all...

Even with this post I can't touch on the complexity of the issue. Had we not bailed out GM the trickle down effect of General Motors stopping production is unimaginable... It is complex.


In summation the poor choices made by some protesters or even the majority of protesters is becoming the media focus instead of the underlying issue.

Actually...GM was financially supported due to strong union pressure. Jobs...jobs...jobs...where their argument. Same with the big3. This is not a corporation issue...but a union issue and pressure tactic.

Unfortunately there is no "protest" of union influence on government decisions. That should be added to the other million things the movement is complaining about...corporate greed, 99% versus 1%, Global warming, bank bailouts, capitalism, stock investments, jobs, insurance whatever else.

As for your general statements...you still need to acknowledge...the problems you complained about were 99% American problems...that just spilled over into Canada insofar as trading and jobs.

For Canadians to be protesting US policy and problems at Olympic Plaza...is just silly IMHO.