Are Rifles like Optics with Diminished Returns

[Off in the Bushes]

So I’m looking at a Anschutz centre fire rifle, as there is accuracy in their 22 is great but is it worth the extra $2000 compared to a savage or $1500 compared to a tikka or a Howa, equivalent to a Sako or Cooper, etc when you get to that $3000 mark.
Do rifles suffer from diminished returns also? What might they look like?

[Jerry D]

For accuracy, they will probably shoot close to the same with the edge going to an anschutz or Cooper.

Sako shoot probably the same as a tikka.

You will notice more in fit and finish quality and smoothness of the action.

If you want an accurate gun. Buy a savage or tikka or entry level bergara.

After owning some rifles. I’d pay the premium and have higher finished rifles even if accuracy is the same. Depends what your into though and what a rifle means to you.

I wanted to add, wood stocks are basically wood stocks. But the plastic ones on tikkas and Remington etc have lots of flex in the forend. If you spend an extra $1000.00 you can get a fibreglass or carbon fibre stock and there is a huge difference in the stiffness.

[Redneck Hippy]

Absolutely diminishing returns.
But
Like so many things in life what are you using it for?

We are truly spoiled in this day and age for affordable rifles. The cheapest of the cheap will shoot better than anything our fathers and grandfathers could have dreamed. Off the shelf ammunition easily matches most handloaders’ best efforts.
Some of my best wallhanger groups were shot with a Savage Axis .243 I purchased Boxing Day 2012(?) with a scope(!) for $250!!
But I sold it eventually because the more I used it the more I hated the operating system. Heavy bolt lift, grinding. Heavy non adjustable trigger.

For hunting the least expensive option will work fine.
For someone who shoots a lot a more pricy option will help the rifle disappear so you can concentrate more on the shot.

Toyota vs Mercedes I dunno

[Pathfinder76]

Guns hold their value. Very few commercial goods do. Very few.

[shooter55]

it's shocking how good cheap (well priced) rifles can shoot. I have a bargain basement Marlin 17M2 that shoots extremely well..I did update the stock, as it was terrible

[vance]

A lot of what you pay for is the extra attention to detail, fit, finish, etc. I would rather hold a carry a rifle that I know was built with pride over compromise. I have owned a Cooper in 223 and still have one in 308 and they both were/are ridiculously accurate, though in my hands, my son's tikka M55 is just as accurate and was a fraction of the price
Vance

[bsmitty27]

There is definently diminishing rewards. But it depends on what you value.

It its accuracy than the rewards start to fade away at a real low price point.

Quality steel old world craftsmanship you definatly pay more for. But even many of the most expensive rifles such as anschutz tout cheap manufacturing processes like pinned barrels as "features"

Vintage Brnos, Heym's, Mauser's, steyrs, mannlicher schoenauers, will win hands down for craftsmanship.


Quality fit and finish is hard to find unless you spend some money.

But at the end of the day get what you like. If you buy wisely used, you will never lose money on your investment.

[vance]

Lesser known brands like Voere (both the German and Austrian companies) are a way to get that old school craftsmanship and quality for a modest price.

[catnthehat]

[QUOTE=bsmitty27;4460353]

Quality steel old world craftsmanship you definatly pay more for. But even many of the most expensive rifles such as anschutz tout cheap manufacturing processes like pinned barrels as "features"[QUOTE]
I don't think Anschutz ever pinned their barrels to save money, they have been winning the biggest matches in the World with them for many, many years, same as their center bedded recoil lug.
Cat

[Dean2]

I love the craftsmanship, fit, finish and beauty of high end rifles. They truly are a functional piece of art. Does Grade V walnut and engraving make it shoot more accurately, hell no, but it sure is pretty to look at. Purdy shotguns, Holland and Holland rifles don't sell for $200,000 new just because of how they shoot.

For mass produced guns, North America produces them by the millions, at a set price point. The Germans, Austrians etc make the gun, then figure out what they have to sell it for. Two entirely different approaches. Cooper and Weatherby MKV, especially the custom shop ones, are the only two mass produced North American guns I can think of that make the gun then figure out the price. I could name a list as long as my arm of European companies that do that.

If what you want is a gun to hunt with, you don't need to spend a lot of money. IF you want refinement and/or a piece of art, the price goes up quickly and a lot. I do not consider that diminishing returns.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Dean2

I love the craftsmanship, fit, finish and beauty of high end rifles. They truly are a functional piece of art. Does Grade V walnut and engraving make it shoot more accurately, hell no, but it sure is pretty to look at. Purdy shotguns, Holland and Holland rifles don't sell for $200,000 new just because of how they shoot.

For mass produced guns, North America produces them by the millions, at a set price point. The Germans, Austrians etc make the gun, then figure out what they have to sell it for. Two entirely different approaches. Cooper and Weatherby MKV, especially the custom shop ones, are the only two mass produced North American guns I can think of that make the gun then figure out the price. I could name a list as long as my arm of European companies that do that.

If what you want is a gun to hunt with, you don't need to spend a lot of money. IF you want refinement and/or a piece of art, the price goes up quickly and a lot. I do not consider that diminishing returns.

Well said Dean.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by Dean2

I love the craftsmanship, fit, finish and beauty of high end rifles. They truly are a functional piece of art. Does Grade V walnut and engraving make it shoot more accurately, hell no, but it sure is pretty to look at. Purdy shotguns, Holland and Holland rifles don't sell for $200,000 new just because of how they shoot.

For mass produced guns, North America produces them by the millions, at a set price point. The Germans, Austrians etc make the gun, then figure out what they have to sell it for. Two entirely different approaches. Cooper and Weatherby MKV, especially the custom shop ones, are the only two mass produced North American guns I can think of that make the gun then figure out the price. I could name a list as long as my arm of European companies that do that.

If what you want is a gun to hunt with, you don't need to spend a lot of money. IF you want refinement and/or a piece of art, the price goes up quickly and a lot. I do not consider that diminishing returns.

This answer should be a stickie.

[sns2]

OP, I have never heard anyone say “Gee. I wish I would never have gotten that quality rifle.” Ever.

[elkhunter11]

More money generally gets you a better stock and trigger, and better bedding, and fit and finish.Then again, in some cases, you may just get a fancier looking rifle ,with zero increase in actual quality.
And if you are buying a 22lr, a Tikka shooting better quality match ammunition, will likely be more accurate than an Anschutz shooting cheap bulk ammunition. There really isn't any point in paying for a high dollar 22lr, to shoot bargain basement ammunition.

[Pathfinder76]

Quality alway looks better. But often quality is not recognized.

[obsessed1]

Originally Posted by sns2

OP, I have never heard anyone say “Gee. I wish I would never have gotten that quality rifle.” Ever.

I love nice quality guns. But I cant afford all the nice quality guns I like. I ve never regretted any firearm purchase I've made whether it's a "quality" rifle or a "budget" rifle..

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[sns2]

Originally Posted by obsessed1

I love nice quality guns. But I cant afford all the nice quality guns I like. I ve never regretted any firearm purchase I've made whether it's a "quality" rifle or a "budget" rifle..

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Over the years, and over many, many rifle purchases, I have learned that accuracy is not always in direct proportion to price.

Arguably, the most accurate hunting rifle I have ever owned was a Savage 110 in 270 win. It was stupid accurate.

When I first started on the forum, guys used to regularly diss other members’ rifle purchases as POS. That infuriated me, as many of those guys were showing off their first rifles, or what they could afford at that stage in their life, and they didn’t deserve that.

We need to be happy with what we purchase whatever it is, and however much it cost us. If funds were unlimited we would all shoot really expensive gear, but we know that is not the case.

PS: Many of those guys who were only able to afford inexpensive rifles, likely are in different financial spots today. That is the way life works. Life happens in stages.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by chuck

Quality alway looks better. But often quality is not recognized.

Hell no. Have you seen some of the paint jobs guys get on custom rifles nowadays???

But I do get what you are saying.

[obsessed1]

Originally Posted by sns2

Over the years, and over many, many rifle purchases, I have learned that accuracy is not always in direct proportion to price.



Arguably, the most accurate hunting rifle I have ever owned was a Savage 110 in 270 win. It was stupid accurate.



When I first started on the forum, guys used to regularly diss other members’ rifle purchases as POS. That infuriated me, as many of those guys were showing off their first rifles, or what they could afford at that stage in their life, and they didn’t deserve that.



We need to be happy with what we purchase whatever it is, and however much it cost us. If funds were unlimited we would all shoot really expensive gear, but we know that is not the case.

Totally agree. I place value not in the price tag of what my guns cost but the true value they are to me.
I love my "cheap" or inexpensive rifles because they are like sleepers to me. My hunting 300wm for instance. I received it in a bag of parts. A vz24 action w a 25" barrel chambered in 300wm. I was married with two kids just making ends meet and I built that rifle myself with cobbled together tools. I made an action wrench with files. A barrel vice and headspace the barrel myself. I hand cut/ filed a single stage trigger to replace the old military 2stage found a cheap butler creek stock and bedded the works with hand made aluminum pillars. A few years later I mounted a crossfire11 6-18 on it and have been hitting the 8" gong at 1k for years.. most of my rifles are similar. All of them group better than moa. Look at that 22-250 in my other thread. That's a three shot group off sticks most goes couldn't shoot from a bench...just because I love my "sleeper" rifles though doesnt mean I don't absolutely love beautiful wood and dark bluing or some of the amazing builds guys put together on here...I truly love all guns .....but can only afford certain ones lol

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[whitetail Junkie]

Originally Posted by chuck

Guns hold their value. Very few commercial goods do. Very few.

X2...I can think of a pile of different types of quility guns that a guy could have bought 10 years ago and flipped them today for a very handsome profit.

[Arty]

Some cartridge and bullet combinations are inherently more precise than others. You can't expect to get superior accuracy at 300 meters with a 22LR or 30-30 or blunt nose 45-70, even though those can travel much farther than that. So attempting to upgrade build quality in a rifle for those to achieve good accuracy at that distance is pointless. Better to put the technology and effort into a 6mm Dasher or 300wm or 338 Lapua shooting VLDs of an appropriate weight.

Unless you have a very pressing need to be accurate at 50 meters specifically with the 22LR for other reasons.

That being said, I think there are two components to accuracy, as far as the rifle is concerned. Consistency (aka precision) and operator usability. Both contribute to shooting accuracy and both take effort and cost money. But you can make all of the key precision components and assemblies almost perfect except for one, and that one can throw off all other others. So you'll get small improvements for most work, then a big step change improvement when it all comes together. At that point you'll get amplified returns in precision, not diminished ones. That's when you stop chasing rifle precision.

You also need to build in good ergonomics. If something is uncomfortable or awkward you could force yourself into miserable configurations and still not be able to use your built precision. So that has to be correct as well, and will have its own step change. Then after it's fit right, no need to do much more of anything to the rifle.

[whitetail Junkie]

Originally Posted by Off in the Bushes

So I’m looking at a Anschutz centre fire rifle, as there is accuracy in their 22 is great but is it worth the extra $2000 compared to a savage or $1500 compared to a tikka or a Howa, equivalent to a Sako or Cooper, etc when you get to that $3000 mark.
Do rifles suffer from diminished returns also? What might they look like?

I’ve been off/on the Anschütz wagon for a few years now for a model 1771 .204 ruger...like someone mentioned the pinned barrels along with the plastic screw in bolt knob is partially keeping me from pulling the trigger on it...however If you got a spare $3K kicking around for a rifle that’s a great problem to have!

[marky_mark]

Just get a vudoo

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Just get a vudoo

I have been told by some shooters the Vudoo is excellent but they do not build the type of .22 I prefer to shoot so I would not even consider them over an Anschutz .
Cat

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Just get a vudoo

After several Anschutz match rifles, and a couple of Coopers, I did just that, and I couldn't be happier. I find the Vudoo just suits me better, and is even easier to shoot tiny groups with.

[obsessed1]

Cz 457 precision looks like a decent shooter or maybe the at-one...couple other good choices in the 22lr ...voodoo would be hard to beat though

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[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

After several Anschutz match rifles, and a couple of Coopers, I did just that, and I couldn't be happier. I find the Vudoo just suits me better, and is even easier to shoot tiny groups with.

Go big or go home 👍
I went with the rim x
Can’t wait to set it up this spring

[Jerry D]

I like the vudoo in all aspects but I can’t get past the full size magazines.

I put a custom rifle together because I couldn’t find exactly what I was looking for. I’m very happy with it. Yes you pay 2-3x more or 4-5x more but you upgrade the parr’s that mean the most to you. I’d always start with the trigger.

[6.5 shooter]

Do they hold there value? Just go and buy an SKS right now. No value, but man they must be made out of gold in todays market.

[dgl1948]

Do they hold their value? Look at the price of a Winchester 94 or the surplus 303’s twenty five years ago and their prices today.