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12-18-2017, 07:35 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 838
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CritterCommander
As a landowner I am leaning toward paid access for the reason that it would MAKE Hunters approach me for at least permission. I would charge $250 per season and credit you back $245 for being respectful enough to actually ask me and get a little information like best way to access, areas to avoid and who else might be out there.
I have never seen so many trespassers as this last year and my land is posted. Road hunters blasting does off the road and leaving them there, visits by Fish and Wildlife etc, etc all this takes up time and basically just leaves a real sour taste in my mouth. I know I am not the only one in our area having issues and we aren't exactly close to town. I do allow a few guys access for hunting, but what gets me is the guys you gave permission to 3 years ago who seem to think you gave them lifetime access based on that.
So anything that would encourage dialogue between hunters and landowners would be a good thing. If that's "paid" access then go for it.
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That won't stop the poaching problem! I feel for our future generations. Here's how it's going to go " I'll charge a $1000 a day cash, that way I don't have to claim it on income tax"
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12-18-2017, 07:49 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Look behind you :)
Posts: 27,775
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What makes a hunting spot good?
Quality animals of plenty and not many hunters.
So what is the end game to paid access?
Quality hunting experiences? Access for hunters? Compensation for landowners? Just filling tags?
Because all these things do not work together towards the same goal.
LC
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12-18-2017, 08:03 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Airdrie
Posts: 1,490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CritterCommander
As a landowner I am leaning toward paid access for the reason that it would MAKE Hunters approach me for at least permission. I would charge $250 per season and credit you back $245 for being respectful enough to actually ask me and get a little information like best way to access, areas to avoid and who else might be out there.
I have never seen so many trespassers as this last year and my land is posted. Road hunters blasting does off the road and leaving them there, visits by Fish and Wildlife etc, etc all this takes up time and basically just leaves a real sour taste in my mouth. I know I am not the only one in our area having issues and we aren't exactly close to town. I do allow a few guys access for hunting, but what gets me is the guys you gave permission to 3 years ago who seem to think you gave them lifetime access based on that.
So anything that would encourage dialogue between hunters and landowners would be a good thing. If that's "paid" access then go for it.
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Trespassers and poachers aren’t going to stop just because the property requires paid access.
Trespassers and poachers are not hunters!
What is needed is more enforcement and teeth in punishing these guys.
Start seizing vehicles, rifles etc along with stiff, meaningful fines.
Means absolutely nothing to a poacher to lose their hunting privileges.
Paid access is not the answer to these issues.
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12-18-2017, 08:06 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norwest Alta
Those that are saying it'll mean the end of hunting please elaborate on how and why. I'm trying to understand.
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The average person would not be able to afford to hunt and hunting would eventually lose the support of the average hunter. The guiding industry would have most of the land tied up. The guiding part is happening now. with shady landowner/outfitter deals taking place now to keep others out.
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12-18-2017, 08:07 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norwest Alta
You know that farmers in the northern zones went to fw looking for hunters or is this hearsay? We've had elk troubles around the neighborhood but I don't recall anyone going to fw looking for strangers to hunt their land. Compensation yes. Elk fence and deterents yes.
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Yes. The fish and game had a list of farmers that went and gave their name so people could come and hunt. So just because you haven't heard of anyone doing this doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
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12-18-2017, 08:07 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CritterCommander
As a landowner I am leaning toward paid access for the reason that it would MAKE Hunters approach me for at least permission. I would charge $250 per season and credit you back $245 for being respectful enough to actually ask me and get a little information like best way to access, areas to avoid and who else might be out there.
I have never seen so many trespassers as this last year and my land is posted. Road hunters blasting does off the road and leaving them there, visits by Fish and Wildlife etc, etc all this takes up time and basically just leaves a real sour taste in my mouth. I know I am not the only one in our area having issues and we aren't exactly close to town. I do allow a few guys access for hunting, but what gets me is the guys you gave permission to 3 years ago who seem to think you gave them lifetime access based on that.
So anything that would encourage dialogue between hunters and landowners would be a good thing. If that's "paid" access then go for it.
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Being allowed to charge for access won’t change any of that. I think I understand how you got there, and in theory it makes sense. But it’s exactly the same concept as adding more ridiculous gun laws. The guys that were breaking the rules obviously don’t care about the rules. So adding one more rule isn’t going to affect anyone but the law abiding guys....who aren’t the problem in the first place.
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12-18-2017, 08:12 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Look behind you :)
Posts: 27,775
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I know farmers that allow others to hunt cow elk during late season. Weather largely dictates if they need the help though, this year to this point not so much. Stop in and ask and you get the rules and told to call if you get one. Just need the draw and good to go.
LC
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12-18-2017, 08:16 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,666
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I like the idea of a deposit as well. I’m sure some of the landowners can relate to were paid access would help offset the costs of hunting on private land.
One of the things that seems to happen all to much is during a wet fall many will drive their vehicles out onto a field with little regard to the ruts they’re making or the swaths they are driving over.
Many hunters come from out of area that could be prevalent with mayweed thistle or other weeds.
I’ve seen this a time or two. A herd of elk are out in my field. Someone shoots one and the elk take off running. 100 head of elk do a lot of damage to a fence if you get them spooked.
None of the above instances are cheap but they need attention every year.
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12-18-2017, 08:19 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,827
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I can see why the folks in the farming area might not jump into this.
They are running farm operations, my Pops had enough of this 40 some odd years ago, brother had enough, guess all of had enough.
This is not saying that some farmers and ranchers would be on board with this if they have the time.
The larger % of farm folks don't have time for this, nor the resources to do this little lone manage it.
Many many years ago the old bush guy up the road said game Harvesting in Alberta will go 2 directions.
For those that can afford it, and nothing for those that can't.
None of us know this since we haven't got there yet.
Only time will tell. All of us know that the day will come when change is needed, all factors play into this beyond our controls.
Hopefully wrong. Don
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12-18-2017, 08:20 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ResidentSpokesman
Being allowed to charge for access won’t change any of that. I think I understand how you got there, and in theory it makes sense. But it’s exactly the same concept as adding more ridiculous gun laws. The guys that were breaking the rules obviously don’t care about the rules. So adding one more rule isn’t going to affect anyone but the law abiding guys....who aren’t the problem in the first place.
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Exactly, we are adults driving vehicles, carrying guns. By this time in our lives it goes without saying that you need permission to hunt on private land even if it's not posted, that's common sense. Losers who don't care about getting permission and just went anywhere, making decent permission asking hunters pay to hunt wouldn't stop th bad ones. Hunting is expensive enough without having to pay more, I would love to have the money some folks have on this forum. To hunt on a couple weekends a person gets off from work would be pointless to pay. Just remember if they are going in without permission, they will do it regardless unless the law changes for poachers.
Oh wait I have the answer..... Decriminalize poaching and truss passing!!!, a lot less offences.... that's what we are doing with everything else which is crazy!!!
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12-18-2017, 08:33 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hillbilly 12
Exactly, we are adults driving vehicles, carrying guns. By this time in our lives it goes without saying that you need permission to hunt on private land even if it's not posted, that's common sense. Losers who don't care about getting permission and just went anywhere, making decent permission asking hunters pay to hunt wouldn't stop th bad ones. Hunting is expensive enough without having to pay more, I would love to have the money some folks have on this forum. To hunt on a couple weekends a person gets off from work would be pointless to pay. Just remember if they are going in without permission, they will do it regardless unless the law changes for poachers.
Oh wait I have the answer..... Decriminalize poaching and truss passing!!!, a lot less offences.... that's what we are doing with everything else which is crazy!!!
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I don’t know what will curtail the trespassing. Paid access won’t. Giving the landowners more power to wrap the offenders rifle barrel around the trespassers head might.
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12-18-2017, 08:35 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,002
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The private land would be better hunting for the select few that want to or can afford to pay. The crown land would turn into even a bigger zoo then it is now because many will still hunt but not pay. The select few with good access will post pictures of there trophy and brag about there hunts. The average person will loose out big time and there will be different class of hunts. From what I heard from people the public land in many states sucks but the large private ranches are great.
Oh and poachers will still poach and trespass that will probably become worse.
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12-18-2017, 09:07 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Millet, AB
Posts: 1,266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck
When you assign a $$$ value to access things get locked down and it becomes a rich mans game period.
LC
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Nothing more needs to be said than this right here. Theres not one justifiable place on earth where this theory hasnt been proven true. End of story.
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My Blog---> Alberta Outdoors Journal
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12-18-2017, 09:15 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Millet, AB
Posts: 1,266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck
I would support a coupon system.
Landowner provides access, you have a successful harvest....you register the kill with F&W and the landowner gets a kickback from the Government.
The more access and success had on the land the more benefit for the landowner.
It's a win all around IMHO.
LC
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Ive been preaching this for years man!
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My Blog---> Alberta Outdoors Journal
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12-18-2017, 09:17 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norwest Alta
I don’t know what will curtail the trespassing. Paid access won’t. Giving the landowners more power to wrap the offenders rifle barrel around the trespassers head might.
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There isn’t one answer / fix for this problem. But a darn good start would be appropriate funding for F&W, more F&W officers and most importantly some real consequences for convictions. There are too many out there that consider a couple hundred dollar fine “worth it”.
Paid access will make this problem a lot worse.
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12-18-2017, 09:25 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Millet, AB
Posts: 1,266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norwest Alta
I like the idea of a deposit as well. I’m sure some of the landowners can relate to were paid access would help offset the costs of hunting on private land.
One of the things that seems to happen all to much is during a wet fall many will drive their vehicles out onto a field with little regard to the ruts they’re making or the swaths they are driving over.
Many hunters come from out of area that could be prevalent with mayweed thistle or other weeds.
I’ve seen this a time or two. A herd of elk are out in my field. Someone shoots one and the elk take off running. 100 head of elk do a lot of damage to a fence if you get them spooked.
None of the above instances are cheap but they need attention every year.
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Ive slammed you on AO regarding this topic and admit it, but this is a very well presented post. Good on you, and i wish you didnt always come across as the ‘its my land and i can make money off it’ guy. I mean that respectfully. Would a government capped reimbursment program not fullfill the need though? Where the scale will topple is when and if it becomes an uncontrolled ‘private enterprise’ scenario. THATS what most of us are against.
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My Blog---> Alberta Outdoors Journal
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12-18-2017, 09:38 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildside2014
Ive slammed you on AO regarding this topic and admit it, but this is a very well presented post. Good on you, and i wish you didnt always come across as the ‘its my land and i can make money off it’ guy. I mean that respectfully. Would a government capped reimbursment program not fullfill the need though? Where the scale will topple is when and if it becomes an uncontrolled ‘private enterprise’ scenario. THATS what most of us are against.
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The problem with giving an inch on anything that even remotely resembles paid access is that nothing ever stays / works the way it was intended. It always gets bastardized into something other than was intended. And given the collection of clowns we have running this province at the moment, now is an especially bad time to even consider this
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12-18-2017, 09:41 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildside2014
Ive slammed you on AO regarding this topic and admit it, but this is a very well presented post. Good on you, and i wish you didnt always come across as the ‘its my land and i can make money off it’ guy. I mean that respectfully. Would a government capped reimbursment program not fullfill the need though? Where the scale will topple is when and if it becomes an uncontrolled ‘private enterprise’ scenario. THATS what most of us are against.
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I've got a thick hide and realize that people have varying opinion. I'm not find of government in anyway and would just as soon they stay out of my affairs.
You are correct I do want my land to make money. Who doesn't?
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12-18-2017, 10:28 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,827
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The system is set up to run on funds, "everything" has some sort of value.
Another thing comes to mind.
Land farmer x has a hay crop he relies on to feed his live stock.
Let's say he allows x game Harvesters to do their thing and a very small portion of the hay lands "over" time become "Less" profitable.
Those of us that grow grass land hay crops know what I'm talking about.
That alone "might" be a red flag from the get go.
I only takes 1 to start the track, then it's normally a runway after that.
Awesome thread with some good points,,, of course lots of questions and hopefully good replies.
I just don't see our land management board agreeing to access since things are running smoothly now days,,, most of the nabour folk in our district feel the same way.
There is a new movement East of us that is "looking" into what is set up in our zone,,, of course it only took 1 fellow to try to go after the folks out there letting them know that he will be the only person they can rely on to manage these lands so long as he has "exclusive" rights to pick and choose who "he" wants to allow access to.
This did not go down very well,,, my folks live on that side of the county, them and all the nabour folk pretty much told this fellow to not bother coming back.
This has been going on for 20 to 30 years now,,, he is some persistent I must say.
This issue alone would add many posts to debate, so I tried my best to keep it short.
1 person steps in "on behalf of" to be the spokes-persons to manage it all.
That alone became the issue.
This fellow owns no land, nor does he even know anything about farming.
I'm pretty sure most land owners know how to manage their own lands, but this is not saying that others might allow someone to take on stuff like game Harvesting managemet person.
Just a thought is all. Of course, this is in the context of looking at ideas in the mix of things.
Don
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12-18-2017, 11:41 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 275
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It’s certainly become much more common recently to see hunting access being managed by someone other than the owner. I know of several colonies that operate this way as well as a few private landowners.
I’ve encountered this several times without a hiccup. In some cases it’s a lot better to deal with someone that’s familiar with hunting and the politics that come along with private land.
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12-18-2017, 12:09 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Rocky Mnt House
Posts: 932
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I think part of the problem with you guys comparing the US to us on paid access, is that in most states, you can legally protect your property.
I have friends and family in the US and they don't have a problem with Trespassers at all.
WHY????
Well they are allowed to shoot them if necessary.
Big bloody difference when we are in Alberta and have to phone the cops of FW and they never get there on time and rarely is there a charge and the penalties are poor.
So paid access is a different animal down there, they did not have the trespass problems to begin with so stop comparing the two.
I am a land owner and my opinions would not change on who can come and go if I was paid or not.
It is a slippery slope and very hard to set up.
Game ranches are different than just paid access to a random quarter of land.
Game ranches in the states are big money, they get there own tags, and charge for hunts not just access.
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12-18-2017, 12:19 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,197
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Many Canadians don't understand how big of a market the United States is and how much wealth exists in the United States. Simply speaking, there are guys in the United States that like hunting and can move massive amounts of disposable money towards securing their hobby. No I am not talking about $500. I am talking about $50 000 ( A year).
If paid hunting is allowed to occur - landowners start treating the wildlife like a commodity. While this has positives regarding numbers and quality, but to think they wouldn't market these things is ridiculous. An example - say I see a 180 class whitetail while combining in September. Do you think your $500 is getting you onto my place come November? No! I am going to sell it to the highest bidder. Additionally, why on earth would I even deal with weekend warriors if I have good land? I would sell a hunting lease for the season to one individual with deep pockets.
Yes, there will be places in Alberta where you could go hunt the weekend for a few hundred bucks. But the habitat will be marginal and the competition from other hunters fierce. Good habitat will be locked down instantly.
You can already see it in Alberta with certain types of wildlife. HUGE amounts of prime habitat in the South is already owned by Doctors and Oilmen for their exclusive use. AO keyboard warrior thinks his 3k Christmas bonus is going to compete against guys that own helicopters?
Lots of you are living in the past already. The rich have already gotten around paid access and gone straight to buying the land outright and posting it. Advocate for paid hunting when you can drop a million bucks for land then another million for a hunting lodge - because if you can't, those guys are going to eat you alive when opening day rolls around.
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12-18-2017, 01:32 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,129
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Exactly what Sneeze says. And one other point, if my neighbour has a 180" buck on his place, how can i get that deer on my place? Maybe I'll bait...
Competition is gonna go through the roof, land prices will sky rocket. They have already as some land is getting labelled as recreational property and the price is up, up, up. Hard for a farmer or rancher to expand. I can't afford anymore land at 2500$/acre and up. Makes no sense to me. But to a rich person or group of persons, this property is getting bought up already and used exclusively for quadding, hunting, shooting, it's their play area. I can't even rent this land for grazing.
I would not support paid access.
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12-18-2017, 02:39 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 509
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^^^^ sneeze and ranch 11 have good comments . I own a farm . And I can’t grow . Forested land is way to expensive. Hunters have deeper pockets. As a owner and a hunter that hunts all over . I would be all for something like a damage deposit . Owners I think would feel a bit better about having all kinds of folk on there land . And the hunters would have to fallow the rules . But it would be ineffective against poachers and trespassing.
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12-18-2017, 03:18 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneeze
Many Canadians don't understand how big of a market the United States is and how much wealth exists in the United States. Simply speaking, there are guys in the United States that like hunting and can move massive amounts of disposable money towards securing their hobby. No I am not talking about $500. I am talking about $50 000 ( A year).
If paid hunting is allowed to occur - landowners start treating the wildlife like a commodity. While this has positives regarding numbers and quality, but to think they wouldn't market these things is ridiculous. An example - say I see a 180 class whitetail while combining in September. Do you think your $500 is getting you onto my place come November? No! I am going to sell it to the highest bidder. Additionally, why on earth would I even deal with weekend warriors if I have good land? I would sell a hunting lease for the season to one individual with deep pockets.
Yes, there will be places in Alberta where you could go hunt the weekend for a few hundred bucks. But the habitat will be marginal and the competition from other hunters fierce. Good habitat will be locked down instantly.
You can already see it in Alberta with certain types of wildlife. HUGE amounts of prime habitat in the South is already owned by Doctors and Oilmen for their exclusive use. AO keyboard warrior thinks his 3k Christmas bonus is going to compete against guys that own helicopters?
Lots of you are living in the past already. The rich have already gotten around paid access and gone straight to buying the land outright and posting it. Advocate for paid hunting when you can drop a million bucks for land then another million for a hunting lodge - because if you can't, those guys are going to eat you alive when opening day rolls around.
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Not much to add to this post. Sneeze has nailed it.
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12-18-2017, 03:27 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ResidentSpokesman
There isn’t one answer / fix for this problem. But a darn good start would be appropriate funding for F&W, more F&W officers and most importantly some real consequences for convictions. There are too many out there that consider a couple hundred dollar fine “worth it”.
Paid access will make this problem a lot worse.
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Maybe a little more funding for fish and game and harsher penalties for poachers and cut the funding down for druggies to zero.
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12-18-2017, 03:39 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Drumheller
Posts: 2,666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneeze
Many Canadians don't understand how big of a market the United States is and how much wealth exists in the United States. Simply speaking, there are guys in the United States that like hunting and can move massive amounts of disposable money towards securing their hobby. No I am not talking about $500. I am talking about $50 000 ( A year).
If paid hunting is allowed to occur - landowners start treating the wildlife like a commodity. While this has positives regarding numbers and quality, but to think they wouldn't market these things is ridiculous. An example - say I see a 180 class whitetail while combining in September. Do you think your $500 is getting you onto my place come November? No! I am going to sell it to the highest bidder. Additionally, why on earth would I even deal with weekend warriors if I have good land? I would sell a hunting lease for the season to one individual with deep pockets.
Yes, there will be places in Alberta where you could go hunt the weekend for a few hundred bucks. But the habitat will be marginal and the competition from other hunters fierce. Good habitat will be locked down instantly.
You can already see it in Alberta with certain types of wildlife. HUGE amounts of prime habitat in the South is already owned by Doctors and Oilmen for their exclusive use. AO keyboard warrior thinks his 3k Christmas bonus is going to compete against guys that own helicopters?
Lots of you are living in the past already. The rich have already gotten around paid access and gone straight to buying the land outright and posting it. Advocate for paid hunting when you can drop a million bucks for land then another million for a hunting lodge - because if you can't, those guys are going to eat you alive when opening day rolls around.
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This is all you need to know. Should have ended with *mic drop*.
paid hunting is a joke.
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12-18-2017, 03:40 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Gods Country
Posts: 670
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First I want to thank the AO crew for keeping things on point with their personal opinions and are not bashing others for their opinions. We do not always have to agree on everything, it is great to see some good discussion without resorting to instant insults and Sore ***** mentality!!
I agree with most posters here (including a number of landowners who also take enjoyment from our heritage in hunting) in that I am completely 100% opposed to paid hunting.
For myself this year, I personally hunted about 35-40 days, on about 15-20 different properties in 8 or 9 different zones. I think it is incredible what Alberta has to offer in regards to opportunity to hunt different areas and different species. The majority of Landowners were an absolute delight to deal with and I in turn treated their access (if/when granted) with complete respect. I know with absolute certainly that my access to hunt would be significantly decreased if paid access were to be introduced.
I love the opportunity that I have currently, that I can try several different hunting spots in one single year for a number of different game birds and game animals with a tag in my pocket, a phone call or a drive up to a landowners house. As I do not have the significant funds to buy up all of the good "leases", I would hate to see this reduced to paying a significant fee to lease one small little area to stare at the same 4 trees each day of the season that I am able to hunt.
My family has had the fortune of hunting with a couple of family friends from Europe and a couple of different States in the US. They are absolutely green with envy of the quality of game and the opportunity that we, as Alberta Residents have to hunt in this province. Where they hunt, only the extreme rich can hunt on good quality private land. The rest of the 99% are leasing low quality animal areas or fighting each other in what little crown land is available.
DR
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12-18-2017, 03:45 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Gods Country
Posts: 670
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X2 on what Sneeze and Ranch 11 just said!
DR
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12-18-2017, 03:46 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfrobert
Don’t kid ourselves. The paid access is already happening out there and it stinks. Paid access has no benefits in my eyes.
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For sure, lets not kid ourselves . It's been going on for years in one form or another and getting more prevalent and obvious every year.
The good old days are now !
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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