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  #241  
Old 12-28-2014, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by expmler View Post
Immigrant just listed a number of scenarios where someone who had access to a gun was threatened and chose not to use the gun. What makes you think every threat results in a shootout.
Maybe In my case i was lucky!? A lot of similar cases did turn in to a shootout.
But you are correct. Every threat does not and will not necessarily turn in to a shootout
My point was i was in extreme cases where my handgun did nothing for me. Situations that the average Canadian probably will and should never experience.
I speak from my own experience. But for me, the less handguns available the better. It makes for a more peaceful society
  #242  
Old 12-28-2014, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Immigrant View Post
Maybe In my case i was lucky!? A lot of similar cases did turn in to a shootout.
But you are correct. Every threat does not and will not necessarily turn in to a shootout
My point was i was in extreme cases where my handgun did nothing for me. Situations that the average Canadian probably will and should never experience.
I speak from my own experience. But for me, the less handguns available the better. It makes for a more peaceful society

Well said sir!
  #243  
Old 12-28-2014, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by javlin101 View Post
So from your statement and that of your example the outcome was no different wither they carried or not. So why carry??
He made no mention of how many times a firearm or any weapon was used to successfully defend lives. Why not carry, better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Allow law abiding licensed citizens to make their own choices.
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  #244  
Old 12-28-2014, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by expmler View Post
Has more to do with the culture than access to handguns.
True. But the more handguns in circulation, the bigger the odds it will fall in the wrong hands. It can be concealed. Tuff to walk down main street with a rifle without being seen
  #245  
Old 12-28-2014, 04:29 PM
javlin101 javlin101 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by twofifty View Post
Sounds like Mexico.
Go to Mexico regularly, my brother lives there 6 months of the year, never heard of an issue unless you go to places you should not be. like I said before avoid trouble best you can.
  #246  
Old 12-28-2014, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Immigrant View Post
True. But the more handguns in circulation, the bigger the odds it will fall in the wrong hands. It can be concealed. Tuff to walk down main street with a rifle without being seen
With the massive increase in firearms ownership in the US over the last 10yrs, why has the crime rate been declining?
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  #247  
Old 12-28-2014, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer View Post
He made no mention of how many times a firearm or any weapon was used to successfully defend lives. Why not carry, better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Allow law abiding licensed citizens to make their own choices.
They have the choice within the law. If you can change the law great, if not live within it like every other law abiding citizen, no?
  #248  
Old 12-28-2014, 04:33 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Immigrant View Post
That is exactly why I chose to live here. The odds of my examples happening here are slim to none. Why? Because handguns are restricted and very difficult to come by
Let's look at your examples


Quote:
A friend, farther of three, was involved in a fender bender. He was hit from behind whilst waiting at a traffic light. Things get heated and he is shot 9 times by the lawyer that drove in to him.
Would it have been any different if the lawyer reached into the car, pulled out an XCR and shot him nine times?

Quote:
My wife and I are getting in to my truck after supper at my parents. I see a person walking up the driveway pointing a gun. I am packing as well. Do i pull my gun or do I get my wife and parents back in to the house without a shootout. I made the right decision by not pulling my gun and herding the family back in to the house. They were not after my truck. They wanted in to the house because they left the truck idling in the driveway. If i pulled my gun a family member would have got hurt.
Would it have made a difference if the person was carrying a shotgun with an extended magazine instead?


Quote:
My cousin is drawing money at the ATM. He is focusing on the ATM. He is packing as well. They wait till it spits out the money and he gets shot 3 times in the stomach. They take his gun and his cash
So do you think our Canadian regulations keep thieves and robbers from carrying handguns? Would it have been better if the thieves had used an SKS or a shotgun?

Quote:
My father gets woken up with a 9mm pistol shoved in his mouth. He had no time to reach for a gun. There are 7 guys standing in his bedroom with guns and knives. They hold up him, my mother and my sister for 8 hours in their home. All the whilst holding a gun to my 2 hear old nieces head so they don't think of doing anything "funny". They also threaten to rape my mother and sister
Once again, do you think that our Canadian regulations would prevent someone that is going to hold up a family, and threaten to rape people, from using a handgun to commit such a crime? Would it have mattered if it was a shotgun that was shoved into his mouth?

Quote:
We are having a BBQ at a friends house with family friends and kids. 3 of us are packing. 4 guys jump over the fence, grab the closest child and puts a gun to his head. We all do what they say. No way we are pulling our guns. We are trained to shoot straight but they are not.
Yet again, do you believe that people that would commit such an act would care about our Canadian firearms regulations? Would it have mattered if they had used short barreled shotguns?

You are trying to make it sound like handguns are the root of all evil, when in fact, there are far more dangerous weapons that Canadians can legally carry around.

In every case, the people in your examples broke the law, so obviously neither the laws , nor the police were enough to protect the people in your examples.
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  #249  
Old 12-28-2014, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer View Post
With the massive increase in firearms ownership in the US over the last 10yrs, why has the crime rate been declining?
What part of the crime rate has declined and did it involve firearms?
  #250  
Old 12-28-2014, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by twofifty View Post
Sounds like Mexico.
Possibly South Africa?
  #251  
Old 12-28-2014, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer View Post
The criminals who commited these crimes were licensed and carrying firearms legally?

How much worse would crime have been if the good guys were not allowed to carry?

If you were allowed to carry for self defense why wouldn't you use the tools available to you?

Where is this sh it hole?

Sounds to me like a total failure of the system. How are law abiding people licensed to carry part of the problem? Sounds like they are still being victimized, the question is are they victimized less because they have guns?

Can you expand on which rights we will lose if open carry was legal? Why would democracy be threatened if open carry was legal?
I believe i have the "right" to sleep at night without the fear of having a pistol stuck in my mouth
I have the "right" to draw money at the ATM without worrying if the guy behind me is going to shoot me in the guts
I have the "right" to go to a hockey game with my son and. Ot worry if the drunk guy in the seat behind me is going to make good on his threats to "f@&$ up" the guy next to me because he said something bad about his favourite player

I have the "right" not to worry if the guy pretending to ask for a loonie is going to stick a gun in my face and jack my car
I have the "right" to live in a peaceful society
  #252  
Old 12-28-2014, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Let's look at your examples




Would it have been any different if the lawyer reached into the car, pulled out an XCR and shot him nine times?



Would it have made a difference if the person was carrying a shotgun with an extended magazine instead?




So do you think our Canadian regulations keep thieves and robbers from carrying handguns? Would it have been better if the thieves had used an SKS or a shotgun?



Once again, do you think that our Canadian regulations would prevent someone that is going to hold up a family, and threaten to rape people, from using a handgun to commit such a crime? Would it have mattered if it was a shotgun that was shoved into his mouth?



Yet again, do you believe that people that would commit such an act would care about our Canadian firearms regulations? Would it have mattered if they had used short barreled shotguns?

You are trying to make it sound like handguns are the root of all evil, when in fact, there are far more dangerous weapons that Canadians can legally carry around.
I think his point is if some one is walking down the street carrying a shot gun or long rifle in Canada it would draw attention very quickly. A side arm would not draw attention so more than likely the bad guy is less likely to risk such action or at least here you would hope.
  #253  
Old 12-28-2014, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
Possibly South Africa?
Correct Buzz
  #254  
Old 12-28-2014, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Immigrant View Post
I believe i have the "right" to sleep at night without the fear of having a pistol stuck in my mouth
I have the "right" to draw money at the ATM without worrying if the guy behind me is going to shoot me in the guts
I have the "right" to go to a hockey game with my son and. Ot worry if the drunk guy in the seat behind me is going to make good on his threats to "f@&$ up" the guy next to me because he said something bad about his favourite player

I have the "right" not to worry if the guy pretending to ask for a loonie is going to stick a gun in my face and jack my car
I have the "right" to live in a peaceful society
And at any time, someone can take those rights away from you, and the police will arrive in time to identify your body, and notify your next of kin.
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  #255  
Old 12-28-2014, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
And at any time, someone can take those rights away from you, and the police will arrive in time to identify your body, and notify your next of kin.
And again anywhere else in the world wither carry is legal or not. just keeps going round and round.
  #256  
Old 12-28-2014, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Immigrant View Post
Correct Buzz
The use of "whilst" tipped me off...

Ja beot.
  #257  
Old 12-28-2014, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by javlin101 View Post
I think his point is if some one is walking down the street carrying a shot gun or long rifle in Canada it would draw attention very quickly. A side arm would not draw attention so more than likely the bad guy is less likely to risk such action or at least here you would hope.
The layer was driving not walking, who would have noticed if he had a long gun in the vehicle?

The person that walked up the driveway could have driven up to the driveway, The crooks at the ATM could also have been in a vehicle, the same with the people that woke him up in the house, or jumped the fence into the yard. Not everyone that is planning to commit a crime with a long gun is stupid enough to walk around showing it to everyone first. And all but the first example were planned crimes, and people that plan crimes in advance don't care about our firearms regulations.
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  #258  
Old 12-28-2014, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Immigrant View Post
Correct Buzz
SA is a way different society than Canada.
We don't have race-based warfare going on here, with the majority living in poverty.
  #259  
Old 12-28-2014, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Let's look at your examples




Would it have been any different if the lawyer reached into the car, pulled out an XCR and shot him nine times?



Would it have made a difference if the person was carrying a shotgun with an extended magazine instead?




So do you think our Canadian regulations keep thieves and robbers from carrying handguns? Would it have been better if the thieves had used an SKS or a shotgun?



Once again, do you think that our Canadian regulations would prevent someone that is going to hold up a family, and threaten to rape people, from using a handgun to commit such a crime? Would it have mattered if it was a shotgun that was shoved into his mouth?



Yet again, do you believe that people that would commit such an act would care about our Canadian firearms regulations? Would it have mattered if they had used short barreled shotguns?

You are trying to make it sound like handguns are the root of all evil, when in fact, there are far more dangerous weapons that Canadians can legally carry around.

In every case, the people in your examples broke the law, so obviously neither the laws , nor the police were enough to protect the people in your examples.
The criminals have access to those weapons. They choose handguns. Because it can be concealed. You can walk down the street and "blend in" with the crowd.
I get your point that a criminal will use all means possible to commit his crime. But lets not make it easy for them
  #260  
Old 12-28-2014, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
The use of "whilst" tipped me off...

Ja beot.
😄
  #261  
Old 12-28-2014, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Immigrant View Post
The criminals have access to those weapons. They choose handguns. Because it can be concealed. You can walk down the street and "blend in" with the crowd.
I get your point that a criminal will use all means possible to commit his crime. But lets not make it easy for them

We are making it easy for them, by having laws that keep the law abiding Canadians defenseless against the criminals, like those in your examples.

Have you ever heard of a place called Kennesaw Georgia? They had fairly high crime rates, right up until they passed a fairly controversial law, which resulted in their crime rates plummeting. In 2007, Family Circle picked Kennesaw as one of the ten best towns in the USA to raise a family. Look it up, you might learn something.
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  #262  
Old 12-28-2014, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Immigrant View Post
I believe i have the "right" to sleep at night without the fear of having a pistol stuck in my mouth
I have the "right" to draw money at the ATM without worrying if the guy behind me is going to shoot me in the guts
I have the "right" to go to a hockey game with my son and. Ot worry if the drunk guy in the seat behind me is going to make good on his threats to "f@&$ up" the guy next to me because he said something bad about his favourite player

I have the "right" not to worry if the guy pretending to ask for a loonie is going to stick a gun in my face and jack my car
I have the "right" to live in a peaceful society
Any of those things can and do happen in Canada.
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  #263  
Old 12-28-2014, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
We are making it easy for them, by having laws that keep the law abiding Canadians defenseless against the criminals, like those in your examples.

Have you ever heard of a place called Kennesaw Georgia? They had fairly high crime rates, right up until they passed a fairly controversial law, which resulted in their crime rates plummeting. In 2007, Family Circle picked Kennesaw as one of the ten best towns in the USA to raise a family. Look it up, you might learn something.
On the other side of this point

http://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms...eatbritain.php
  #264  
Old 12-28-2014, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javlin101 View Post
What part of the crime rate has declined and did it involve firearms?
Let's use violent crime rate first


Violent crime rates in the United States (1960-2012)[13][14][15]
Year Violent crime Murder and non-negligent
manslaughter Forcible rape Robbery Aggravated
assault
1960 160.9 5.1 9.6 60.1 86.1
1961 158.1 4.8 9.4 58.3 85.7
1962 162.3 4.6 9.4 59.7 88.6
1963 168.2 4.6 9.4 61.8 92.4
1964 190.6 4.9 11.2 68.2 106.2
1965 200.2 5.1 12.1 71.7 111.3
1966 220.0 5.6 13.2 80.8 120.3
1967 253.2 6.2 14.0 102.8 130.2
1968 298.4 6.9 15.9 131.8 143.8
1969 328.7 7.3 18.5 148.4 154.5
1970 363.5 7.9 18.7 172.1 164.8
1971 396.0 8.6 20.5 188.0 178.8
1972 401.0 9.0 22.5 180.7 188.8
1973 417.4 9.4 24.5 183.1 200.5
1974 461.1 9.8 26.2 209.3 215.8
1975 487.8 9.6 26.3 220.8 231.1
1976 467.8 8.7 26.6 199.3 233.2
1977 475.9 8.8 29.4 190.7 247.0
1978 497.8 9.0 31.0 195.8 262.1
1979 548.9 9.8 34.7 218.4 286.0
1980 596.6 10.2 36.8 251.1 298.5
1981 594.3 9.8 36.0 258.4 289.3
1982 570.8 9.1 34.0 238.8 289.0
1983 537.7 8.3 33.8 216.7 279.4
1984 539.9 7.9 35.7 205.7 290.6
1985 556.6 8.0 36.8 209.3 304.0
1986 620.1 8.6 38.1 226.0 347.4
1987 612.5 8.3 37.6 213.7 352.9
1988 640.6 8.5 37.8 222.1 372.2
1989 666.9 8.7 38.3 234.3 385.6
1990 729.6 9.4 41.1 256.3 422.9
1991 758.2 9.8 42.3 272.7 433.4
1992 757.7 9.3 42.8 263.7 441.9
1993 747.1 9.5 41.1 256.0 440.5
1994 713.6 9.0 39.3 237.8 427.6
1995 684.5 8.2 37.1 220.9 418.3
1996 636.6 7.4 36.3 201.9 391.0
1997 611.0 6.8 35.9 186.2 382.1
1998 567.6 6.3 34.5 165.5 361.4
1999 523.0 5.7 32.8 150.1 334.3
2000 506.5 5.5 32.0 145.0 324.0
2001 504.5 5.6 31.8 148.5 318.6
2002 494.4 5.6 33.1 146.1 309.5
2003 475.8 5.7 32.3 142.5 295.4
2004 463.2 5.5 32.4 136.7 288.6
2005 469.0 5.6 31.8 140.8 290.8
2006 473.6 5.8 31.6 150.0 292.0
2007 471.8 5.7 30.6 148.3 287.2
2008 458.6 5.4 29.8 145.9 277.5
2009 431.9 5.0 29.1 133.1 264.7
2010 404.5 4.8 27.7 119.3 252.8
2011 387.1 4.7 27.0 113.9 241.5
2012 386.9 4.7 26.9 112.9 242.3
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  #265  
Old 12-28-2014, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javlin101 View Post
So from your statement and that of your example the outcome was no different wither they carried or not. So why carry??
How many incidents were avoided because a good guy pulled a firearm and the **** rats left rather than risk being perforated?

Immigrant you seem to have been in a lot of flaps that ended poorly, were you ever involved in one where the firearm helped you?
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"I find it interesting that some folk will pay to use a range, use a golf course, use a garage bay but think landowners should have to give permission for free. Do these same people think hookers should be treated like landowners?" pitw
  #266  
Old 12-28-2014, 05:12 PM
javlin101 javlin101 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer View Post
Let's use violent crime rate first


Violent crime rates in the United States (1960-2012)[13][14][15]
Year Violent crime Murder and non-negligent
manslaughter Forcible rape Robbery Aggravated
assault
1960 160.9 5.1 9.6 60.1 86.1
1961 158.1 4.8 9.4 58.3 85.7
1962 162.3 4.6 9.4 59.7 88.6
1963 168.2 4.6 9.4 61.8 92.4
1964 190.6 4.9 11.2 68.2 106.2
1965 200.2 5.1 12.1 71.7 111.3
1966 220.0 5.6 13.2 80.8 120.3
1967 253.2 6.2 14.0 102.8 130.2
1968 298.4 6.9 15.9 131.8 143.8
1969 328.7 7.3 18.5 148.4 154.5
1970 363.5 7.9 18.7 172.1 164.8
1971 396.0 8.6 20.5 188.0 178.8
1972 401.0 9.0 22.5 180.7 188.8
1973 417.4 9.4 24.5 183.1 200.5
1974 461.1 9.8 26.2 209.3 215.8
1975 487.8 9.6 26.3 220.8 231.1
1976 467.8 8.7 26.6 199.3 233.2
1977 475.9 8.8 29.4 190.7 247.0
1978 497.8 9.0 31.0 195.8 262.1
1979 548.9 9.8 34.7 218.4 286.0
1980 596.6 10.2 36.8 251.1 298.5
1981 594.3 9.8 36.0 258.4 289.3
1982 570.8 9.1 34.0 238.8 289.0
1983 537.7 8.3 33.8 216.7 279.4
1984 539.9 7.9 35.7 205.7 290.6
1985 556.6 8.0 36.8 209.3 304.0
1986 620.1 8.6 38.1 226.0 347.4
1987 612.5 8.3 37.6 213.7 352.9
1988 640.6 8.5 37.8 222.1 372.2
1989 666.9 8.7 38.3 234.3 385.6
1990 729.6 9.4 41.1 256.3 422.9
1991 758.2 9.8 42.3 272.7 433.4
1992 757.7 9.3 42.8 263.7 441.9
1993 747.1 9.5 41.1 256.0 440.5
1994 713.6 9.0 39.3 237.8 427.6
1995 684.5 8.2 37.1 220.9 418.3
1996 636.6 7.4 36.3 201.9 391.0
1997 611.0 6.8 35.9 186.2 382.1
1998 567.6 6.3 34.5 165.5 361.4
1999 523.0 5.7 32.8 150.1 334.3
2000 506.5 5.5 32.0 145.0 324.0
2001 504.5 5.6 31.8 148.5 318.6
2002 494.4 5.6 33.1 146.1 309.5
2003 475.8 5.7 32.3 142.5 295.4
2004 463.2 5.5 32.4 136.7 288.6
2005 469.0 5.6 31.8 140.8 290.8
2006 473.6 5.8 31.6 150.0 292.0
2007 471.8 5.7 30.6 148.3 287.2
2008 458.6 5.4 29.8 145.9 277.5
2009 431.9 5.0 29.1 133.1 264.7
2010 404.5 4.8 27.7 119.3 252.8
2011 387.1 4.7 27.0 113.9 241.5
2012 386.9 4.7 26.9 112.9 242.3
How many with side arms?
  #267  
Old 12-28-2014, 05:14 PM
Battle Rat Battle Rat is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Immigrant View Post
I believe i have the "right" to sleep at night without the fear of having a pistol stuck in my mouth
I have the "right" to draw money at the ATM without worrying if the guy behind me is going to shoot me in the guts
I have the "right" to go to a hockey game with my son and. Ot worry if the drunk guy in the seat behind me is going to make good on his threats to "f@&$ up" the guy next to me because he said something bad about his favourite player

I have the "right" not to worry if the guy pretending to ask for a loonie is going to stick a gun in my face and jack my car
I have the "right" to live in a peaceful society
And how does the law that prevents you from arming yourself uphold your rights?
  #268  
Old 12-28-2014, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by javlin101 View Post
How many with side arms?
Now answer my question. How is it possible, with the massive increase in gun ownership in the US, THAT THE CRIME RATE WITH GUNS IS FALLING?

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...e-data-table-8

Weapons 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011
Total 14,916 14,224 13,752 13,164 12,664
Total firearms: 10,129 9,528 9,199 8,874 8,583
Handguns 7,398 6,800 6,501 6,115 6,220
Rifles 453 380 351 367 323
Shotguns 457 442 423 366 356
Other guns 116 81 96 93 97
Firearms, type not stated 1,705 1,825 1,828 1,933 1,587
Knives or cutting instruments 1,817 1,888 1,836 1,732 1,694
Blunt objects (clubs, hammers, etc.) 647 603 623 549 496
Personal weapons (hands, fists, feet, etc.)1 869 875 817 769 728
Poison 10 9 7 11 5
Explosives 1 11 2 4 12
Fire 131 85 98 78 75
Narcotics 52 34 52 45 29
Drowning 12 16 8 10 15
Strangulation 134 89 122 122 85
Asphyxiation 109 87 84 98 89
Other weapons or weapons not stated 1,005 999 904 872 853
1 Pushed is included in personal weapons.
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  #269  
Old 12-28-2014, 05:16 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javlin101 View Post

And see where the UK fits as far as total crimes committed in 2014.

http://www.whichcountry.co/top-10-co...-in-the-world/

And by the way, the USA has about five times the population of the United Kingdom, but only twice as many crimes were committed in the USA in 2014. Given that there is twice the rate of crime in the UK as in the USA, it's quite obvious that the legal system in the UK is sadly lacking.
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  #270  
Old 12-28-2014, 05:21 PM
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Redfrog Redfrog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twofifty View Post
SA is a way different society than Canada.
We don't have race-based warfare going on here, with the majority living in poverty.
S/A did away with all that when they got rid of Apartheid. Don't you watch the news?

Now it is a peaceful, prosperous, paradise, where citizens have no need for any guns, high walls, electrified, concertina wire, guard dogs, and security patrols.

The ones who immigrate to Canada only do so for the lousy winters and tons of snow.

One of the most beautiful countries in the world, destroyed in a generation.

No gun laws there for the criminals either.
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