alberta beef producers proposing pay to play

[flyguyd]

Originally Posted by MAC

Hunters currently pay for wildlife certificate plus average of 40.00 per tag.
Its nothing to drop 200.00 for tags. Another 10.00 for arguments sake alright we get hit with increases every year.

Ranchers or Farmers can apply for compensation for Wildlife damage now without having to prove access for hunters. What you describe above is not paid access and I don't have a problem with it. Wildlife damage property, improvement for wildlife there a number of programs for this now. But when a rancher says its my land you must pay me for the privilege of access is where it falls apart. Some guys are saying sure a hundred bucks is fine but it wont stop there. Once it is accepted it will grow to highest bidder gets exclusive access. Everyone here that appears to be fighting you/Landowners is not. They are fighting to allow equal access for hunters regardless of their station in life. The land is yours to do with as you please allow access or don't its your choice and I will support you happily either way. I get why some landowners have closed the gate. I am fed up beyond description with the Yahoos out there, and I'm not talking landowners. I report every infraction to the law if legal or the owner if its just disrespectful behavior. No one should get away with it. But I am going to fight the system that will get a door slam in my face unless I cough up 5 grand. A cheque should not open up the opportunity for hunting, while keeping others out.

MAC

Well said MAC

[JRsMav]

Originally Posted by norwestalta

Wildlife damages are a tough thing. Up where I'm working a couple of farmers left their bales in the field all winter. There is not much left of them now except twine and elk manure. Should they get compensation for being lazy?
I'm not saying that all are lazy but these ones are in my book. Do they expect compensation? I can't say.
I don't know if there is some kind of crop insurance for such a thing? I would think there would be. The same as hail or drought insurance.
Or you can look at it this way. As hunters we have to buy a license from the crown to hunt the animal that we choose. So does that mean it's the crown's animal? If it is then should the crown not be paying the feed bill? I can't turn my livestock out for them to feed where they choose. Another thought is if it's the crowns animal should the crown not have insurance for it when my truck is wrote off for hitting it.

no one foots the feed bill. you are beyond reaching here. Having your farm op in the middle of their natural habitat is, once again, the cost of doing business. Animals choose to eat the feed that you chose to grow. You knew this when you got into it. If you suddenly aren't ok with it you aren't cut out to ranch. You really are stretching it here man.

[norwestalta]

Originally Posted by JRsMav

no one foots the feed bill. you are beyond reaching here. Having your farm op in the middle of their natural habitat is, once again, the cost of doing business. Animals choose to eat the feed that you chose to grow. You knew this when you got into it. If you suddenly aren't ok with it you aren't cut out to ranch. You really are stretching it here man.

Lol. Somebody runs over my cow I'm responsible. But anyways to much time on my hands to dream up different ideas.

[expmler]

Originally Posted by JRsMav

no one foots the feed bill. you are beyond reaching here. Having your farm op in the middle of their natural habitat is, once again, the cost of doing business. Animals choose to eat the feed that you chose to grow. You knew this when you got into it. If you suddenly aren't ok with it you aren't cut out to ranch. You really are stretching it here man.

You want to hunt then fine hunt. You know when you buy your license that the animals are on private land. Landowners choose not to allow you on their land. Just because you bought a license doesn't mean you get to hunt. If you aren't ok with that get a new hobby.

Here you have the two extreme attitudes that make this like trying to achieve peace in the middle east.

[norwestalta]

Originally Posted by expmler

You want to hunt then fine hunt. You know when you buy your license that the animals are on private land. Landowners choose not to allow you on their land. Just because you bought a license doesn't mean you get to hunt. If you aren't ok with that get a new hobby.

Here you have the two extreme attitudes that make this like trying to achieve peace in the middle east.

Nothing to get worked up about. It was just something that I was pondering.

[expmler]

Originally Posted by norwestalta

Nothing to get worked up about. It was just something that I was pondering.

Not riled up at all. Just showing an example of two guys not looking past the end of their own nose.

[expmler]

Originally Posted by norwestalta

Nothing to get worked up about. It was just something that I was pondering.

Here's something I've been pondering. Funny how the guys here that think the gov't should have no role, here run to the gov't to ensure their interests.

Let's get the gov't out of it all together, No assistance for farmers, fine.
Gov't does not stand in the way of paid access either.

Funny how these "make it on your own" types think that applies to everyone but themselves.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by expmler

You don't understand my proposal. I am saying if there are 10,000 hunting licenses sold each licensee pays $10.00 that goes into a pool. That is $100,000.00.

Landowners that grant access to hunters recoup their losses from the pool, not from each individual hunter at the gate.

If they can prove damages and permitting access they draw out of the pool.

As far as liability goes a farmer would be in the same position if he grants access now.

I kind of like your idea. I would like to add that when a hunter spends that extra money that he would get a card or something to give to landowners with the hunters info on it and the farmer could than use that card to qualify for compensation. At least this way the landowners aren't dictating the price to access there land. The more people they let on there land to help control the problem wildlife the more compinsation they receive.

[bhguy]

Originally Posted by norwestalta

For the most part you're right lefty. I'd be more than happy to give a lot more access out if somebody wants to put in their time and resources to make my farm more profitable. As a economical move I'm better off to keep my day job in the patch and have somebody do my farm work for me in exchange for access. I'll even supply lunch supper and breakfast.
It is all about profit. The patch is very profitable for me where farming isn't.

I'd be happy if someone would contribute to my income for land access...but id never ask as it is lunacy . I never have an issue with helping out another guy with checking fences while I'm hunting, picking up trash, things like that, are reasonable and often expected, to pay is a buisness venture, your selling a product, not where we need to go !!

[expmler]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

I kind of like your idea. I would like to add that when a hunter spends that extra money that he would get a card or something to give to landowners with the hunters info on it and the farmer could than use that card to qualify for compensation. At least this way the landowners aren't dictating the price to access there land. The more people they let on there land to help control the problem wildlife the more compinsation they receive.

I had the same idea in my full proposal in post #152 I just used the license number.

My proposal does not rely on the number of hunters, because the landowner has no control over how many hunters ask for permission.

[beltburner]

Just a question to the landowners who are having wildlife issues. As a landowner especially if it is a large tract of land; do you not just expect these problems when you start farming or ranching? I have a construction company and I expect to lose money on theft,stupidity etc. Even if you own the land it's not possible to kill all wildlife that cause a problem. It goes with owning and working the land. I'm not being a jerk here either; I'm just trying to understand the line of thought.

[bhguy]

Originally Posted by beltburner

Just a question to the landowners who are having wildlife issues. As a landowner especially if it is a large tract of land; do you not just expect these problems when you start farming or ranching? I have a construction company and I expect to lose money on theft,stupidity etc. Even if you own the land it's not possible to kill all wildlife that cause a problem. It goes with owning and working the land. I'm not being a jerk here either; I'm just trying to understand the line of thought.

Because alot of us that farm miss the fact it it's a business and a lifestyle, nit just a lifestyle, you make very valid points

[Icatchfish]

well, last year I had to drive up to WMU 522 from Calgary because it is the only place I had permission (my fault). would I pay for access close to Calgary? sure I would if its 50 or a 100 bucks.

but the truth is if people are allowed to pay for access then, the demand will just drive the prices up. and If a rancher has 6x6 running in his land and another smaller buck why would the rancher charge the same flat rate. lets face it, many people pay for bragging rights just look at our outfitting industry and how many people pay an outfitter to get a trophy animal on a 2 day hunt when normally it takes an average joe months or maybe years of scouting and research.

from this point a new industry will get created and ranchers will start feeding these animals in the winter to avoid winter kill and to keep them around so that when season comes, they can cash in on these animals.

if this goes down then the average joe will find it more financially feasible to buy meat from the store and forget about getting a trophy buck

[Lefty-Canuck]

9 pages....the OP has 6 posts total all on the first page....hmmm interesting!

LC

[Gust]

.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by crownb

You should be hoping for that kind of luck, it would be good for everyone!!

Really?

Thats just plain silly.

First of all the only way to sustain that would be an arrangement akin to the wheatpool or NEP and forcing tax payers here to subsidize your products even more than they already do.....rather... than allowing us to shop on an open market.

Funny how everyone is so much against communism until they form their own union or association or whatever they wish to call it and want the government to make sure that their interests are taken care.

Yup...communism is bad bad bad until it becoimes your problem and not the other guys I guess.

[bhguy]

Originally Posted by Gust

Smart post; if I go on a dating site and say I'll pay for sex, ya think my mailbox will fill up with offers?

Lol new name icatchlandowners

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Icatchfish

well, last year I had to drive up to WMU 522 from Calgary because it is the only place I had permission (my fault). would I pay for access close to Calgary? sure I would if its 50 or a 100 bucks.

but the truth is if people are allowed to pay for access then, the demand will just drive the prices up. and If a rancher has 6x6 running in his land and another smaller buck why would the rancher charge the same flat rate. lets face it, many people pay for bragging rights just look at our outfitting industry and how many people pay an outfitter to get a trophy animal on a 2 day hunt when normally it takes an average joe months or maybe years of scouting and research.

from this point a new industry will get created and ranchers will start feeding these animals in the winter to avoid winter kill and to keep them around so that when season comes, they can cash in on these animals.

if this goes down then the average joe will find it more financially feasible to buy meat from the store and forget about getting a trophy buck

Good idea.
I'm all for it.
The sooner the better...its just business after all and why should a man not earn what he can using his property as he sees fit?

Of course... being a business arrangement the gentlemens agreements we used to have will be gone gone gone.

Once money changes hands those contracts will be written and signed and bilaterally binding folks and breaches won't be as simple as simply telling a guy to get off your land.

That means that if I pay for conditional access... I better not see your cousin and every other bumpkin in the neighbourhood out there hunting for free and I will have have free range as outlined in the contrat and I do not care that your tractor broke so harvest is delayed. It also means that I will no longer restrain myself from shooting that buck you want for yourself or take the time out of my day to help fix a fence, curb a yote problem, kill grass rats or help you find strays.

It'll be all business and you can be darn sure that like you... I will be interested in nothing more than getting my moneys worth.


Or... we can just try to try to foster the friendly mutually beneficial friendship based arrangements that most reasonable people can find and enjoy now.

Its not my choice folks... but you should be mindful of what you wish for because once money is on the table we all know what will happen.
Just look at what money has already done to hunting here.

[norwestalta]

Originally Posted by bhguy

I'd be happy if someone would contribute to my income for land access...but id never ask as it is lunacy . I never have an issue with helping out another guy with checking fences while I'm hunting, picking up trash, things like that, are reasonable and often expected, to pay is a buisness venture, your selling a product, not where we need to go !!

Sorry if I gave off the air that I want to be compensated for access. It's not my intent. I'm was saying in previous posts that my damages aren't necessarily from four legged critter but more from the 2 legged 4 wheeled types. My farm is a business venture but more so for a retirement end game. I would not ask to be financial compensated but don't be upset if when asked for permission the answer is no. I've got friends that come up from the city as well as locals that hunt on my land over the course of the hunting season. I don't pay them and they don't pay me. I keep in contact with them over the off season and I know that I can count on them to help a guy out if in a bind and follow the ground rules I deem right for hunting on my land. My wife feeds them for the most part and believe it or not will do their laundry. The only thing I do charge for is use of my cooler and cutting equipment because it isn't much but I would like to upgrade. I hope this will clear up my position on this.

[Icatchfish]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

Good idea.
I'm all for it.
The sooner the better...its just business after all and why should a man not earn what he can using his property as he sees fit?

Of course... being a business arrangement the gentlemens agreements we used to have will be gone gone gone.

Once money changes hands those contracts will be written and signed and bilaterally binding folks and breaches won't be as simple as simply telling a guy to get off your land.

That means that if I pay for conditional access... I better not see your cousin and every other bumpkin in the neighbourhood out there hunting for free and I will have have free range as outlined in the contrat and I do not care that your tractor broke so harvest is delayed. It also means that I will no longer restrain myself from shooting that buck you want for yourself or take the time out of my day to help fix a fence, curb a yote problem, kill grass rats or help you find strays.

It'll be all business and you can be darn sure that like you... I will be interested in nothing more than getting my moneys worth.


Or... we can just try to try to foster the friendly mutually beneficial friendship based arrangements that most reasonable people can find and enjoy now.

Its not my choice folks... but you should be mindful of what you wish for because once money is on the table we all know what will happen.
Just look at what money has already done to hunting here.

x2, can't agreee with ya anymore.

[norwestalta]

Gust, don't know why you'd go on dating site when you could get a whole lot of loving by going car prowling.

[coreya3212]

Originally Posted by norwestalta

Gust, don't know why you'd go on dating site when you could get a whole lot of loving by going car prowling.

That's hilarious.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Icatchfish

x2, can't agreee with ya anymore.

Oh thats only the half of it.

Imagine what happens when you enter into a contract... your neighbour gets a bit green about it and then remembers a little thing called the rule of 9's?

Now whose end is gonna buy him off?
Not mine...my contract is with you.

What happens when farmers go into direct competion with one another over some quick cash.

I am sure that paid hunting would be the end of many many long standing friendships and turn landowner against landowner is very short order.

What happens when the family farms are bought out by multi-nationals interested in setting up provate hunting reserves for their elite?

The list goes on....

[bhguy]

Originally Posted by norwestalta

Sorry if I gave off the air that I want to be compensated for access. It's not my intent. I'm was saying in previous posts that my damages aren't necessarily from four legged critter but more from the 2 legged 4 wheeled types. My farm is a business venture but more so for a retirement end game. I would not ask to be financial compensated but don't be upset if when asked for permission the answer is no. I've got friends that come up from the city as well as locals that hunt on my land over the course of the hunting season. I don't pay them and they don't pay me. I keep in contact with them over the off season and I know that I can count on them to help a guy out if in a bind and follow the ground rules I deem right for hunting on my land. My wife feeds them for the most part and believe it or not will do their laundry. The only thing I do charge for is use of my cooler and cutting equipment because it isn't much but I would like to upgrade. I hope this will clear up my position on this.

Position clear and understood. Charging for using a cooler heck yes. I would (you may already have) set tighter rules like foot only, vehicles along fence line....and a few questions go along way. A farmer last year that had moose on his land that alot of people were after asked me when I asked permission" where are you going to drive when you show up? There was a direct line fro his gate to swamp donkey Valhalla. I said along the fence around the Feild and park there. Granted access right away, he said I got it...its about respect and understanding not money!!

[norwestalta]

Originally Posted by bhguy

Position clear and understood. Charging for using a cooler heck yes. I would (you may already have) set tighter rules like foot only, vehicles along fence line....and a few questions go along way. A farmer last year that had moose on his land that alot of people were after asked me when I asked permission" where are you going to drive when you show up? There was a direct line fro his gate to swamp donkey Valhalla. I said along the fence around the Feild and park there. Granted access right away, he said I got it...its about respect and understanding not money!!

Absolutely. Respect and understanding. Everybody says "yep I'd never do something like that" but do.
We won't start the trespassing yet. That'll be a re run for another day. Lol

[beltburner]

If only we could weed out the idiots!! Like bill engval said ; they should have to wear signs. If all outdoor pursuits were done with some brains and most of all respect, things would go so much better.No incidents of farmer vs sledder, no garbage left on guys land; the list goes on. I dare even say that motorsports when done with respect would be welcomed-well almost lol.

[bison]

Originally Posted by Icatchfish

well, last year I had to drive up to WMU 522 from Calgary because it is the only place I had permission (my fault). would I pay for access close to Calgary? sure I would if its 50 or a 100 bucks.

but the truth is if people are allowed to pay for access then, the demand will just drive the prices up. and If a rancher has 6x6 running in his land and another smaller buck why would the rancher charge the same flat rate. lets face it, many people pay for bragging rights just look at our outfitting industry and how many people pay an outfitter to get a trophy animal on a 2 day hunt when normally it takes an average joe months or maybe years of scouting and research.

from this point a new industry will get created and ranchers will start feeding these animals in the winter to avoid winter kill and to keep them around so that when season comes, they can cash in on these animals.

if this goes down then the average joe will find it more financially feasible to buy meat from the store and forget about getting a trophy buck

Just taking the bucks out does nothing to curb the ever increasing population, and most guys are only after the bucks anyway...at least around here they are.

[expmler]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

Really?

Thats just plain silly.

First of all the only way to sustain that would be an arrangement akin to the wheatpool or NEP and forcing tax payers here to subsidize your products even more than they already do.....rather... than allowing us to shop on an open market.

Funny how everyone is so much against communism until they form their own union or association or whatever they wish to call it and want the government to make sure that their interests are taken care.

Yup...communism is bad bad bad until it becoimes your problem and not the other guys I guess.

Funny how you are all for private enterprise until you can't get free access to private land.

Yup...capitalism and the free market is good until access becomes your problem and not the other guys.

[4thredneck]

Nine pages because someone read Neil Waugh's column in Alberta Outdoorsman. Neil has never tried to stir the pot and turn hunters against landowners.Oh yeah and this expmlr guy has gone from owning 13 quarters to paying taxes on 5200 ha. Trolls all over the place

[expmler]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

Good idea.
I'm all for it.
The sooner the better...its just business after all and why should a man not earn what he can using his property as he sees fit?

Of course... being a business arrangement the gentlemens agreements we used to have will be gone gone gone.

Once money changes hands those contracts will be written and signed and bilaterally binding folks and breaches won't be as simple as simply telling a guy to get off your land.

That means that if I pay for conditional access... I better not see your cousin and every other bumpkin in the neighbourhood out there hunting for free and I will have have free range as outlined in the contrat and I do not care that your tractor broke so harvest is delayed. It also means that I will no longer restrain myself from shooting that buck you want for yourself or take the time out of my day to help fix a fence, curb a yote problem, kill grass rats or help you find strays.

It'll be all business and you can be darn sure that like you... I will be interested in nothing more than getting my moneys worth.


Or... we can just try to try to foster the friendly mutually beneficial friendship based arrangements that most reasonable people can find and enjoy now.

Its not my choice folks... but you should be mindful of what you wish for because once money is on the table we all know what will happen.
Just look at what money has already done to hunting here.

If it is my land, I draw up a contract and you can be assured that I will lay out the terms, not you.

If you don't like the terms, fine. Find a better deal, you are not forced to hunt my land.

Free market at work.