Priority Point Based System Flaws

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by husky7mm

Exactly, and now there are 1000's of 999s and tons of them each year are feeling the time is finally right. It is backing things up in a whole new way. Many would have been drawn years ago if it were left up to chance. Now there is a plague, a never ending supply of wishy washy 999's that feel this year is finally "the right time" and there is no end in sight. Many are collecting points for a grand prize that dont even know where or what it will be, its all just in case something good and easy come in and they will already have 6 or 10 points for it. Quickly that becomes the new entry fee.

And if every person that chose to use 999 had drawn instead of using 999, they would have taken a tag that someone else drew, and that person wouldn't have drawn. Then those people that didn't draw would still be waiting to draw, so the wait times wouldn't be any shorter.

It is simply a matter of numbers, and having everyone trying to draw a tag every year would just increase those numbers.

[bowhunter9841]

Originally Posted by husky7mm

That is actually one of the biggest problems with the priority system... Point hoarding has been going on for so long, and often for draws that people dont even have a clue about. Every draw is clogged right up with someone that is planning on finally not 999 it this year. Everything that was a p2 becomes a p5, and p5 is on its way to p10, its a mess. If it was lottery everyone would have to put their best foot forward every year, if you didnt think it was a good year, you wouldnt apply. All the "desirable" zones that are close to cities would get more applications cause everyone that wanted to badly hunt those zones would feel they may have a chance, and all the far away and difficult access zones would get way less applicants. Joe serious would be hunting more often. There would be a lot less people running around with a p10 and no clue where want to put it..... Guaranteed!

I think you need to read this.....

http://www.mywildalberta.com/Hunting...t/Default.aspx


Be more specific about the tags you're talking about! There's zones where people are drawing cow elk tags with a 0 priority, others drawing muley buck with 0 and 1 as well. Only things that are really high priority are sheep and antelope. And the coveted tags for elk and moose obviously! Low numbers of availability cause high priority situations, but I'd still rather wait ten years for an antelope tag, than to put in for 20 years and never get drawn at all!

[Roughneck Country]

Originally Posted by husky7mm

Exactly, and now there are 1000's of 999s and tons of them each year are feeling the time is finally right. It is backing things up in a whole new way. Many would have been drawn years ago if it were left up to chance. Now there is a plague, a never ending supply of wishy washy 999's that feel this year is finally "the right time" and there is no end in sight. Many are collecting points for a grand prize that dont even know where or what it will be, its all just in case something good and easy come in and they will already have 6 or 10 points for it. Quickly that becomes the new entry fee.

We would still be in the same priority situation only difference is it would have been differnt people that pulled the tags instead of pulling to the side and letting someone else get the tag. I like the points system lets me make concrete plans for a year I can go. I think there should be mandatory tag purchase and a small percent of tags that are random draw though

[bowhunter9841]

Originally Posted by hal53

You mean if you had to pay for the tag when you applied?

The way the application is now, if you were to pay for the tag at the time of application. It would definitely limit people. I put in for ten draws that I would like to hunt one day. Some of the real high priority zones I'll put in the draw because I know I have a long wait to draw anyways. And some of them I 999, because I don't want to draw everything at once. If I had to pay for all my draws upfront, I'd never be able to afford it. Right now, I spread my tag purchases out over the entire season(I bowhunt as well as rifle hunt). So I will usually purchase my general whitetail right off the bat, and save draw tags until rifle season. Or something along those lines! That way it spreads the damage to the bank account out a bit, as opposed to one lump sum!!

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by bowhunter9841

The way the application is now, if you were to pay for the tag at the time of application. It would definitely limit people. I put in for ten draws that I would like to hunt one day. Some of the real high priority zones I'll put in the draw because I know I have a long wait to draw anyways. And some of them I 999, because I don't want to draw everything at once. If I had to pay for all my draws upfront, I'd never be able to afford it. Right now, I spread my tag purchases out over the entire season(I bowhunt as well as rifle hunt). So I will usually purchase my general whitetail right off the bat, and save draw tags until rifle season. Or something along those lines! That way it spreads the damage to the bank account out a bit, as opposed to one lump sum!!

But if you start putting away money for next years tags as soon as you finish purchasing the current year's tags, you have months to save up enough to purchase all of your next years tags at once. The following year, you would have an entire year to save up for the next year's tags. Personally, I would prefer that a person not pay for the tags until he is drawn, but as soon as you draw, your credit card is charged. If your credit card is no longer valid, the person is disqualified from the draws for the next year, and after that, he can't apply for draws until he has paid for all of the tags that he drew but never paid for.

[dustinjoels]

Lefty has already made all the valid points for why the 999 system is a good thing. Anyone who doesn't get it at this point will probably never understand.

I do agree with the original issue brought up in regards to certain hunts like turkey or the 437 sheep hunt being unattainable for those who aren't already at the top of the priority list which means they've been putting in for those draws since the first year they were offered. I understand the importance of rewarding those with the highest priority and those that have been patient.

The major problem with these specific draws is that they are basically eliminating the chances of people new to the sport of hunting from ever getting drawn over the course of their lifetimes. Whether they are 12 years old or just picking up hunting later in life, they will never have the opportunity to even have a chance at being drawn for some of the most coveted tags our great province has to offer.

In the ever changing climate of increased anti hunting sentiment in today's society, I don't see how discouraging new hunters or young hunters in any way is good for the continuation of our great sport.

The suggestion that makes sense on this thread is to keep 90% of the tags for these once in a lifetime draws based on priority and allocate 10% of tags to a lottery. There could even be a caveat that lottery tags are a once in a lifetime tag or can't win for another 10 years or something.

Heck, the 10% lottery allocation would even appease the misinformed 999 haters because you could only win the lottery tag if you put in for that specific draw. 999ers couldn't win since they aren't actually applying for anything.

[drake]

Originally Posted by bowhunter9841

I think it would also take away hunting opportunities from less fortunate people. Not everyone that hunts, has a fortune to spend on it, this system would pretty well guarantee that only the rich could apply for draws. And I'm not cool with that!

not buying it.......if you cant afford to pony up the money for your tag upfront, what are you doing applying in the first place.

[Bushleague]

Originally Posted by drake

not buying it.......if you cant afford to pony up the money for your tag upfront, what are you doing applying in the first place.

I dunno man, I think that when the tag is awarded it should be payed for then, not when the application is made. I agree that people tying up special licences should at least be made to pay for the tag though, whether it is used or not.

I don't get all this 999 hate, unused priority does not even show up in the draw system, or have any bearing whatsoever on how much priority it takes to draw a tag. The fact that somebody may or may not have a bunch of priority is absolutely irrelevant.

Back before 999 people used to put for high priority tags that they knew they couldn't draw in order to build priority and avoid drawing a tag when it wasn't convenient. This practice, which would fall into use once again if 999 was removed, did make an impact on wait times, 999 does not.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

All the while wanting to protect your 'entitlement'.

This old geezer would like to see it all on random draw. Pay your money and take your chances.

Hey, some entitlements are earned. Others aren't.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Bushleague

I dunno man, I think that when the tag is awarded it should be payed for then, not when the application is made. I agree that people tying up special licences should at least be made to pay for the tag though, whether it is used or not.

I don't get all this 999 hate, unused priority does not even show up in the draw system, or have any bearing whatsoever on how much priority it takes to draw a tag. The fact that somebody may or may not have a bunch of priority is absolutely irrelevant.

Back before 999 people used to put for high priority tags that they knew they couldn't draw in order to build priority and avoid drawing a tag when it wasn't convenient. This practice, which would fall into use once again if 999 was removed, did make an impact on wait times, 999 does not.

Exactly, under the old system every now and then someone would draw where they didn't want....

We don't want a system where EVERYONE NEEDS to enter trust me.

LC

[drake]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Exactly, under the old system every now and then someone would draw where they didn't want....

We don't want a system where EVERYONE NEEDS to enter trust me.

LC

This is what im saying...it is an issue of supply and demand. We have a limited amount of opportunity and growing pool of demand. If something doesn't change ALL draws will become once in a life time or completely unattainable.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by drake

This is what im saying...it is an issue of supply and demand. We have a limited amount of opportunity and growing pool of demand. If something doesn't change ALL draws will become once in a life time or completely unattainable.

Exactly it's basic stats....only way to decrease wait is to add more tags or remove hunters from the pool of entries.

Go after factors where people are exploiting loopholes...ie, resident requirements. These will help but it's one peice of the pie. Going after 999 is misguided efforts.

LC

[dahler]

I'm not really sure any of the logic you applied is applicable.

Priority 7s are at 8% chance.
Priority 8s 100%.
That means its and 8 year wait plan and simple. That's a long ways from the math of 151 years..

Start 999ing for 7 years then put in. On the 8th year your going out for that tom... Pretty simple if you ask me.......

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by dahler

I'm not really sure any of the logic you applied is applicable.

Priority 7s are at 8% chance.
Priority 8s 100%.
That means its and 8 year wait plan and simple. That's a long ways from the math of 151 years..

Start 999ing for 7 years then put in. On the 8th year your going out for that tom... Pretty simple if you ask me.......

Not quite right....

Look at P0-P7...then calculate the wait as if put in as a P0, and calculate the volume of people that need to draw before you get to the front. It will take longer than a P7.

Everyone looks at the top draw percentage, the true answer is found underneath that based on the number of low priority applicants.

LC

[drake]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Not quite right....

Look at P0-P7...then calculate the wait as if put in as a P0, and calculate the volume of people that need to draw before you get to the front. It will take longer than a P7.

Everyone looks at the top draw percentage, the true answer is found underneath that based on the number of low priority applicants.

LC

this......you'de think we were trying to teach people brain surgery!. the draw problem is a very simple concept....

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Not quite right....

Look at P0-P7...then calculate the wait as if put in as a P0, and calculate the volume of people that need to draw before you get to the front. It will take longer than a P7.

Everyone looks at the top draw percentage, the true answer is found underneath that based on the number of low priority applicants.

LC

Exactly, the number of people with each priority is not the same, there are usually more people at P1 and P2 than at P6 and P7. Then if it's a draw with a small number of tags, the number of 999s can be a factor. And if there is a situation as happened with the pronghorns several years ago, hardly any tags were drawn for a couple of years, and the draw times will be considerably longer. In fact one year with a huge drop in the number of tags issued can cause the entire system to back up considerably, but it takes a year or two to notice this in the draw stats.
Then there are isolated situations where the number of P7s may be more than the number of P5s and P6s, so once the P7s draw, the next year people could draw with a P5 or a P6.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Bganz

Alright, bare with me. I'm preparing for some backlash on this, and I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but I'm just curious what others think.

to start off with, the numbers aren't going to be 100% correct as not all people will continue to apply, people can pass away, or move out of province, and maybe the turkeys (for this example) will grow in numbers and it won't always be a 125 quota per year.

I'm new to hunting and am deciding what I want to apply for in just a few days. After analyzing the past draw results, I am unconvinced to start 999'ing certain animals, and am curious what others opinions are on this.

For example, Merriam's Turkey.

Last year the allowed quota was 125, and there was a total of 15,717 applicants. Only 125 of the 15,717 applicants were drawn, so now if I start 999'ing this year, (I won't include new hunters, such as myself, or the 125 from last year starting fresh again.) there are 15,592 applicants a head of me.

Simple math, 15,592/125 = 124.736

124 years until I would be drawn.

I figure if I can live to the ripe old age of 151, I won't be up for a good ol' Turkey shoot. If someone is so inclined to turkey hunt, it would probably be a much wiser investment to save up, and head elsewhere.

The higher priority ranked individuals out of 15,592 applicants will probably disagree, but shouldn't these low quota animals be on a lottery based system such as Bison? It would be unfair to those who have waited many years to change now, but this has turned into a hunt completely out of reach now for the new hunting generation.

Anyone who was priority 5 or less last year has 7,063 people a head of them, excluding another 1,402 who are priority 5 with you. You're looking at 56+ years.

Bottom line. Would you start applying now on these draws, or is this shot just too far out of range.

Maybe you didn't care for this question to be answered, or it was somehow lost in the ensuing "discussion".

IMO, as a new hunter just starting in the priority draw system you SHOULD apply and build points for those currently statistically impossible draws.

It is well recognized that there will have to be changes made to the current system. It hasn't happened yet because the entitled old geezers still have some bitch in 'em.

In the next few years there WILL be changes made to the draw system. You will be better off having built up some priority points before the changes are made.

[Leafy]

Originally Posted by drake

This is what im saying...it is an issue of supply and demand. We have a limited amount of opportunity and growing pool of demand. If something doesn't change ALL draws will become once in a life time or completely unattainable.

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Exactly it's basic stats....only way to decrease wait is to add more tags or remove hunters from the pool of entries.

Go after factors where people are exploiting loopholes...ie, resident requirements. These will help but it's one peice of the pie. Going after 999 is misguided efforts.

LC

What I personally would like to see is a cap on the amount of applications, possibly 4 - 5 draws. This in conjunction with the current "999" would reduce wait times and still allow future planning.

The current system is ok, but certainly can be improved to increase opportunity for all.

[dahler]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Not quite right....

Look at P0-P7...then calculate the wait as if put in as a P0, and calculate the volume of people that need to draw before you get to the front. It will take longer than a P7.

Everyone looks at the top draw percentage, the true answer is found underneath that based on the number of low priority applicants.

LC

It really isn't like that at all.
3/4 of the people at those priorities won't be applying in 3-5 years. Thousands of people apply for the draws as P1-P3. That number drops off pretty quick after that as people don't continue to apply.

If that was the case you would have 5000 P6+. It's not like the draw has only been around for so many years. It's nothing new. You don't see 5000 plus people waiting 10+ years because that people who aren't dedicated to actually hunting the species quit applying after x amount of years. Hence why you see the decline as you continue to go up in priority!

Not rocket science my friend. It's been an 8 year wait for years hasn't ever changed..... It's not as hard as your making it...

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Leafy

What I personally would like to see is a cap on the amount of applications, possibly 4 - 5 draws. This in conjunction with the current "999" would reduce wait times and still allow future planning.

The current system is ok, but certainly can be improved to increase opportunity for all.

Agree something has to give or many draws are statistically impossible if you enter today....

Limiting draw numbers would help for sure, but no matter what you do people who don't understand the system in place whine the loudest. Feeling somehow wronged because they didn't take the time to get to know or don't care to understand how it works.

LC

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Agree something has to give or many draws are statistically impossible if you enter today....

Limiting draw numbers would help for sure, but no matter what you do people who don't understand the system in place whine the loudest. Feeling somehow wronged because they didn't take the time to get to know or don't care to understand how it works.

LC

And that unfortunately will never change.

[drake]

I don't want a cap on how many draws I can a apply for....that is reducing opportunity. What I do want a barrier for the non serious to NOT apply for every draw...in other words, making people pay for their tag up front keeps the guys who apply for everything with no intention of buying the tag out of the pool.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by drake

I don't want a cap on how many draws I can a apply for....that is reducing opportunity. What I do want a barrier for the non serious to NOT apply for every draw...in other words, making people pay for their tag up front keeps the guys who apply for everything with no intention of buying the tag out of the pool.

As to the people that are whining about not being able to afford their tags up front, it would be simple to just not allow anyone with tags that were drawn and not paid for to participate in the draws the following season. And after that one year ban, they aren't allowed to apply until they have paid for all of the rags that they drew.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by dahler

It really isn't like that at all.
3/4 of the people at those priorities won't be applying in 3-5 years. Thousands of people apply for the draws as P1-P3. That number drops off pretty quick after that as people don't continue to apply.

If that was the case you would have 5000 P6+. It's not like the draw has only been around for so many years. It's nothing new. You don't see 5000 plus people waiting 10+ years because that people who aren't dedicated to actually hunting the species quit applying after x amount of years. Hence why you see the decline as you continue to go up in priority!

Not rocket science my friend. It's been an 8 year wait for years hasn't ever changed..... It's not as hard as your making it...

You will see . Revisit this thread in 3-4 years and see if what you say holds true. More people are entering ALL the draws than ever before, tags have not significantly increased in the past few years.

You see the decline partially because the high priority guys are likely 999 folks who decided to pull tag that year. The other guys are guys who are past tag recipients and re-entering the draws. Also there are more "newbies" entering the draws year over year so the lower priority numbers are higher....more People have figured out how easy and economical it is to enter our draws, even as non-residents.

Counting on thousand of people to give up applying after 2-3 years is not realistic.

LC

[Bushleague]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

You will see . Revisit this thread in 3-4 years and see if what you say holds true. More people are entering ALL the draws than ever before, tags have not significantly increased in the past few years.

You see the decline partially because the high priority guys are likely 999 folks who decided to pull tag that year. The other guys are guys who are past tag recipients and re-entering the draws. Also there are more "newbies" entering the draws year over year so the lower priority numbers are higher....more People have figured out how easy and economical it is to enter our draws, even as non-residents.

Counting on thousand of people to give up applying after 2-3 years is not realistic.

LC

To be fair, more people are entering all draws because non draw opportunities have steadily dwindled. Back when you could hunt moose on a general bow tag in most areas, less people saw the need to put in for the draws. Same with Mule deer etc. And once I've got to wait 3 years to draw a tag to hunt moose or mule deer with a bow in the back 40, I'm more inclined to wait 5 years to hunt them with a rifle or in a better zone. A bunch of people follow this logic and all the sudden you are waiting 7-8 years instead of 5 because more people are applying for the same number of tags in these areas. Nothing to do with 999.

So I don't know that the increased amount of draw applicants is due to more love for the draw system. But I think that this also points towards your point that the influx of draw applicants is not going away.

[Roughneck Country]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Agree something has to give or many draws are statistically impossible if you enter today....

Limiting draw numbers would help for sure, but no matter what you do people who don't understand the system in place whine the loudest. Feeling somehow wronged because they didn't take the time to get to know or don't care to understand how it works.

LC

People complaining about priority points are the ones that don't have many and somehow think the people tat have built up 9 or 10 points shouldn't have priority over them even though they have been waiting the longest. If people want the draw times decreased demand needs to be decreased which means reduced opportunity through increase draw cost or purchasing all tags you apply for up front or limiting the number of draw applications. Any way you look at it you will have to push people out of the draw to make wait times go down. Personally I like the current priority points system.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Exactly I think The point was made of more entrants and less tags a couple times

LC

[pottymouth]

Guess no one likes the idea of keeping the current system the way it is, but adding a small amount of lottery into the equation...

Lefty, here is that old thread you were talking about..... some good idea's back there, some bad ones, and some I would answer differently now too!

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=182787

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Maybe you didn't care for this question to be answered, or it was somehow lost in the ensuing "discussion".

IMO, as a new hunter just starting in the priority draw system you SHOULD apply and build points for those currently statistically impossible draws.

It is well recognized that there will have to be changes made to the current system. It hasn't happened yet because the entitled old geezers still have some bitch in 'em.

In the next few years there WILL be changes made to the draw system. You will be better off having built up some priority points before the changes are made.

To the OP, this is a post to pay attention to.

[Roughneck Country]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

To the OP, this is a post to pay attention to.

This alludes to the draw system being changed, what proposed changes to the system are currently on the table?