The spoiled child Quebec

[Nomad]

I remember reading a poll done by Ezra Levant's defunct Western Standard magazine back in 2005 when Paul Martin was PM. It asked random Western Canadians if they were in favor of seperation. Albertans were 43% in favor and 57% against. The numbers are probably a little less now that the conservatives are in power. Supprisingly the largest group in favour of seperation were the young adults who were too young to remember the infamous NEP. So it's not just a few fringe crazy right wingers (like me ) who want to seperate.

[mooseknuckle]

Shovel and broom time... get rid of them we could use the parking!!

[unclebuck]

Okie, I am sure that there is a reserved spot for you in our wannabe separatist province, where you can absorb our largesse, and still complain about confederation not treating you quite the way you expect. Are you a transplant from there perchance? It sure as hell would make the Newfies happy if they separated, because Alberta would be that much closer!!!

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by unclebuck

Okie, I am sure that there is a reserved spot for you in our wannabe separatist province, where you can absorb our largesse, and still complain about confederation not treating you quite the way you expect. Are you a transplant from there perchance? It sure as hell would make the Newfies happy if they separated, because Alberta would be that much closer!!!

Now Buck, I think you got me confused with someone else. Read back in my posts. I'm the native Albertan NOT "complaining about confederation not treating me quite the way I expect". That's the separatist whiners and crybabies doing that.

And as far as "absorbing our largesse" I work in the energy industry in Alberta and pay a goodly amount of income tax. I'm one of the guys paying the freight.

[rugatika]

I'm all for Canada staying as one whole country...but what needs to happen is there needs to be a system whereby geographical minorities are protected from the democratic majorities located mainly in the major urban centers of Canada. A geographically large and diverse country like Canada should not be largely governed by a single central government who will generally bow to the whims of the major voting blocks located in the major cities of Canada. That is to say the liberties of democratically weak geographical areas (like Alberta, Saskatchewan etc) are subject to the whims of voter rich areas like Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal who have little understanding of life in the "hinterland" and if I may submit...have little understanding of life in general.

I can't remember the study that recently came out that found that provinces with less social programs were footing the bill through equalization for provinces with a rich social program. IE: Alberta is paying for Quebec to buy votes by offering social program after social program to its voters that Alberta does not offer its own citizens. (I'd rather have the tax cut).

I'd rather see separation used as a cudgel to secure increased provincial liberties and a shrinking Federal Gov. Alberta really has no practical reason to remain in Confederation that I can think of off-hand...but I understand the sentimental and patriotic feelings that underly the calls of traitor for those that do support AB separation. Myself...I admit to vascillating between the two positions....part of me is a patriotic Canadian that would like to remain a part of Canada, and part of me is a pragmatist that understands the chances of central Canada relinquishing any power it currently has over us un-educated hillbillies is slim to none...and yeah I am resentful that my liberties are subject to the whims of a largely liberal/socialist populace located in the above-mentioned urban tri-umvirate of communism.

I just like throwing out the word commie once in a while cause it inflames liberals who are sensitive about being smeared with an ideology that they are too ashamed to whole-heartedly embrace even though deep down they truly believe they deserve to spend my own money more than I do.

[roadkill]

Originally Posted by rugatika

A geographically large and diverse country like Canada should not be largely governed by a single central government who will generally bow to the whims of the major voting blocks located in the major cities of Canada. That is to say the liberties of democratically weak geographical areas (like Alberta, Saskatchewan etc) are subject to the whims of voter rich areas like Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal who have little understanding of life in the "hinterland"

Interesting to hear this. It's extremely close to what Rene Levesque was talking about with the Sovereignty-Association plan that the first referendum was all about. What Quebec separatists *and* federalists have forgotten was that he wanted to see Canada become a lot more like what Europe is today.

I also agree that we urban types have no idea what a rural life is like. I read posts by guys on here who can ride horses, for instance, and kind of envy them that once-basic skill. That's just a small, small example.

[QUOTE=rugatika;528034]and if I may submit...have little understanding of life in general.9/quote]

You noob.

Originally Posted by rugatika

I can't remember the study that recently came out that found that provinces with less social programs were footing the bill through equalization for provinces with a rich social program. IE: Alberta is paying for Quebec to buy votes by offering social program after social program to its voters that Alberta does not offer its own citizens. (I'd rather have the tax cut).

We can throw studies at one another till the sun stops coming up and it'll still mean nothing. I guess the fact that the new budget actually costs Quebecers because of sales tax harmonisation mitigates this a little.

As for the social programs, a province like Alberta, where the cost of living's been on the up way too fast actually needs some of those programs more than some other provinces. The premier can buy bus tix to Vancouver for only so many homeless before it gets ridiculous.

Oh wait, that was *already* ridiculous...

Originally Posted by rugatika

I'd rather see separation used as a cudgel to secure increased provincial liberties and a shrinking Federal Gov. Alberta really has no practical reason to remain in Confederation that I can think of off-hand...but I understand the sentimental and patriotic feelings that underly the calls of traitor for those that do support AB separation. Myself...I admit to vascillating between the two positions....part of me is a patriotic Canadian that would like to remain a part of Canada, and part of me is a pragmatist that understands the chances of central Canada relinquishing any power it currently has over us un-educated hillbillies is slim to none...and yeah I am resentful that my liberties are subject to the whims of a largely liberal/socialist populace located in the above-mentioned urban tri-umvirate of communism.

I think your views on Canada's political spectrum are skewed. You obviously don't know what a real communist looks like, and calling anything you don't agree with 'socialist' or 'communist' is just a variant of when lefties call anything *they* don't agree with 'fascist.'

If you're going to make a point, you first have to make sense. As it is, calling a business centre like Toronto socialist shows just how little you really know about the place. You're also laying the US definition of liberalism onto Canada, which doesn't work, as a Canadian Liberal (big or small L) is a centrist, not a socialist. Dippers like me are the actual left, and even we are pretty lightweight.

[rugatika]

Like I said...call a socialist a commie and they get their dander up.

Bottom line...stealing my money to fund the wishes and dreams of others less willing to work = socialism, the good looking cousin of communism.

Telling me there is business in Toronto really means nothing. That's not how TO votes. They vote left wing...they vote for big gov and centralized power and the increased confiscation of wealth to fund increased gov spending. Just like Montreal...just like Vancouver and many others who do not understand what it means to create something of value and reap the profit. George Soros made millions being a businessman...but the guy supports the most left wing radical groups he can...ditto for Maurice Strong. Being a business man doesn't make you a supporter of liberty. And taking someone's wealth to give to someone else you deem more deserving of that wealth....is theft of liberty.

Calling Toronto anything BUT a socialist city indicates your naivete (to be polite).

A socialist that keeps thinking that if he can take just one more percent of the income from the working class eventually gets to 100%. I was just talking to an old guy from Russia who grew up on a communist farm and survuved a German prisoner camp so don't tell me I don't have a handle on communism. Ask anyone that has escaped a communist country and they will tell you they see the similarities in the road we are headed down.

[S.A.S]

As much as I dislike Toronto I would not call it Communist, However they have the largest concentration of Communist and Anarchist scum in this country. It would be nice if a flood could just wipe Toronto away then we could just mosey on in and rebuild it properly.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by rugatika

..ditto for Maurice Strong.

Isn't he in hiding over some scandal or financial hoodwinkin at the moment?

[roadkill]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Like I said...call a socialist a commie and they get their dander up.

No, it's actually a case of 'throw a bunch of ignorant slop around and you're bound to splash someone who'll throw back.'

Originally Posted by rugatika

Bottom line...stealing my money to fund the wishes and dreams of others less willing to work = socialism, the good looking cousin of communism.

I'm not disputing that both ideologies are on the same side of the centre. I'm saying that there are some *big* differences between the New Left and communism. And I think that if I called you a fascist and said there was no difference, you'd get pretty steamed as well.

But more importantly, your view of the left has more to do with loving your own opinion than actually learning anything about the left. I work hard and pay taxes so that those who honestly can't work don't starve.

Granted, I'm not some dread-locked middle-class kid who wears an International Socialist patch to **** off his parents, either. I won't say that crap like that doesn't exist.

Originally Posted by rugatika

Telling me there is business in Toronto really means nothing. That's not how TO votes. They vote left wing...they vote for big gov and centralized power and the increased confiscation of wealth to fund increased gov spending. Just like Montreal...just like Vancouver and many others who do not understand what it means to create something of value and reap the profit. George Soros made millions being a businessman...but the guy supports the most left wing radical groups he can...ditto for Maurice Strong. Being a business man doesn't make you a supporter of liberty. And taking someone's wealth to give to someone else you deem more deserving of that wealth....is theft of liberty.

Okay, were talking about capitalism and socialism, here. Those are economic models. Freedom and liberty and all that aren't actually the same thing, thought they often dovetail nicely with the economic stuff. You talk about liberty as a 'my money is mine' thing. As a New Lefty, I talk about liberty as gays being allowed to marry and non-whites having the right to live without racial profiling affecting their lives.

See just how malleable a word 'liberty' is?

Originally Posted by rugatika

A socialist that keeps thinking that if he can take just one more percent of the income from the working class eventually gets to 100%. I was just talking to an old guy from Russia who grew up on a communist farm and survuved a German prisoner camp so don't tell me I don't have a handle on communism. Ask anyone that has escaped a communist country and they will tell you they see the similarities in the road we are headed down.

So, you talked to a guy who left a Stalinist state and survived a prison camp and that gives you some idea of what communism's all about? Whooo...

I could talk about the entirely different world we live in than the one in which he lived (and was doubtless traumatised). Granted, if I lived under Stalin, I'd be anti-left as well.

OR I could talk about the difference between Marxism, Lenininsm and Stalinism, but you know... I'm also not interested in defending a system I don't believe in.

Oh, then I could muse on the practical impossibility Canada actually voting in a communist government, but I don't think it'll matter.

[Redfrog]

Rugatika, I gotta tell you, you sure save me a lot of typing. And I don't have to spend my time arguing with "those people"

If our paths cross, I'll buy you beverage, you earned it.

[rugatika]

I have no problem helping those that honestly and truly can't help themselves. In fact...I think it's the bedrock of a civilized society. Somewhere along the way the definition of "not being able to help yourself" has been bastardized into meaning "not having to take responsibility for your yourself". If the government did not take half my money I would gladly give it to those in true need...in fact I do give to many childrens societies as it is.

The difference between a myself and a lib is I want to be able to donate my money where I see fit and directly to the people in need whether its directly from myself or through a non-profit charity or the church or however I decide is best. You seem to think this is better accomplished by a team of $80,000 (or whatever it is) a year bureaucrats deciding where this money goes. What gives you the right to vote money out of my pockets to fund whatever feel good initiative it is that you want to support, but don't have the money yourself to fund??

And this is what really irks me...when it comes to saving the world it's always the lefties that are first in line with other peoples money. How is it that Bono can justify pilfering the coffers of middle class Canada while he himself shuffles his millions around to avoid paying taxes in Ireland? It's easy to mock us uneducated conservative types and say what a great caring person you are when you are looting the pockets of some poor stiff out working his bag off in the patch while you're writing poetry (or whatever) and backslapping your lefty buddies about what a terrific bunch you are for taking money from hard working Canadians to save the world. I'd have a little more faith in the left if I saw more of them following say Bill Gates example and donating a huge chunk of their own wealth to a worthy cause instead of coercing the gov't to do it for them. But what do you know...Barack Obama still has millions in his bank account...as does Al Gore, Jean Chretien, the Trudeau clan, Mulroney, Paul Martin and so on. More money than they could ever hope to spend (which I have no problem with) but doing their level best to empty the pockets of people who are getting by or living cheque to cheque so they can secure the votes or get the adulation of having done something great.

Did Tommy Douglas do something great when he brought in HealthCare?? Hell no. He didn't do a damn thing. He said....let's steal some money from these guys that are working hard and give it to these guys who are working less hard. For this he's a Canadian icon?

Like I said...I have no problem helping people who are truly in need...and I accept the premise that gov't is necessary and plays a role in running and defending a country...I just think that gov't has grown into a Leviathan that has gotten completely out of control and is running roughshod over our rights to keep what we earn. If you enjoy a night at the opera...great...I just don't think I should have to pay for it (or your damn babysitter).

It can be frustrating arguing with a lib...somewhat akin to nailing jello to a tree, but I find it an enjoyable mental exercise usually. So you buy the first round and I'll get the second.

[rugatika]

I just noticed the sideways smear with the implication that being a conservative minded person somehow meant I was a racist homophobe. How original...never would have guessed that was coming. I'm all for gays getting married. (I'm against men and women getting married though...) I was just at a gay wedding this summer where two of my friends got married. And I don't support racial discrimination either.

Freedom and Liberty are very much entwined in the economic model one lives under. For you to think that liberty has nothing to do with how much of my property the government decides I can keep is assinine. It has everything to do with liberty and freedom.

Funny that you should mention the malleability of the word "liberty".

"When words lose their meaning, people lose their freedom." Confucius

[roadkill]

Originally Posted by rugatika

I just noticed the sideways smear with the implication that being a conservative minded person somehow meant I was a racist homophobe. How original...never would have guessed that was coming. I'm all for gays getting married. (I'm against men and women getting married though...) I was just at a gay wedding this summer where two of my friends got married. And I don't support racial discrimination either.

Freedom and Liberty are very much entwined in the economic model one lives under. For you to think that liberty has nothing to do with how much of my property the government decides I can keep is assinine. It has everything to do with liberty and freedom.

Funny that you should mention the malleability of the word "liberty".

"When words lose their meaning, people lose their freedom." Confucius

Okay, In hindsight, I can see how you'd see my statement as a smear. I didn't mean it that way, I was just sort of hitting on some of the issues that the New Left have (or do) backed, versus the taxes argument. To me, being taxed to pay for universal healthcare has nothing to do with liberty, it has to do with good citizenship. But I feel that, until I can walk down the street with my wife and not have people distressed over the fact that we're not the same colour, or b***ching about gay marriage (though that argument *should* be over) or any one of a tonne of issues like that, then there are liberties issues that can't be ignored.

We're just looking at the issue from two completely different, non-compatible viewpoints.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by rugatika

I just noticed the sideways smear with the implication that being a conservative minded person somehow meant I was a racist homophobe.

Playing the victim card here? Think you are reaching there Ruga. Roadkill talked about what he considered when he thought of liberty. He said nothing of you.

[glen d.]

The Supreme court rules that Quebecs Bill 101 violated the federal constitution and the Quebecs own charter of human rights.
English speaking canadians of that province were told that "Too Bad" by premier Bourassa and promptly invoked the notwith-standing clause to over rule the high court.


Alberta and its Western allies should be looking to opt out of the offical lanquage act just like Quebec did.


The majority of english canadians did not have a vote on the official lanquage act.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Playing the victim card here? Think you are reaching there Ruga. Roadkill talked about what he considered when he thought of liberty. He said nothing of you.

This is the oldest lefty trick in the book Oko and you know it. I think liberals teach this to their kids before the ABC's. If all else fails start tossing around the right wing biggot card. Not considering myself a victim at all. Just pointing out that throwing the discrimination ticket into the argument isn't going to add anything to the discussion and has been so overused by the left that it really has no effect at all anymore.

I'm sure, knowing roadkill, it was unintentional...just an instinctive flinch and may not have been an intentional smear...but it leaves with the reader the impression that the "New left" supports equal rights and I don't. I don't like the implication that supporting a smaller government is somehow exclusive of liberty (be it economic or social) for ALL people.

And by the way...I'd be interested in hearing the differences between Marxism, Stalinism, and Leninism (and hell why not Castroism) and whether you guys think the later isms grew necessarily out of Marxism as a byproduct of it or whether they were completely separate isms that grew solely out of a dictators ego and lust for complete power and control. Did they use a bastardized version of communism to satisfy their own lust for power or did they need to gain complete control over the population to maintain a communist state? Just curious to hear your take on it since it was brought up.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by glen d.

Alberta and its Western allies should be looking to opt out of the official lanquage act just like Quebec did.
.

Fair is fair, but could you suggest what you want the provincial government to use the "not-withstanding" clause on? I'm not aware of anything the provincial government is being forced to do by federal legislation or the Supreme Court with regard to language.

[glen d.]

Alberta and the west must stop this forced bilinqualism.

There is a case in the courts now in Alberta as a person was given a ticket in Edmonton in English and he wants it dismissed becase it was not in French also and no doubt this is just the beginning, as the cearel boxes seem to be pointing the wrong way more often these days.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by rugatika

This is the oldest lefty trick in the book Oko and you know it. I think liberals teach this to their kids before the ABC's. If all else fails start tossing around the right wing biggot card. Not considering myself a victim at all. Just pointing out that throwing the discrimination ticket into the argument isn't going to add anything to the discussion and has been so overused by the left that it really has no effect at all anymore.

I'm sure, knowing roadkill, it was unintentional...just an instinctive flinch and may not have been an intentional smear...but it leaves with the reader the impression that the "New left" supports equal rights and I don't. I don't like the implication that supporting a smaller government is somehow exclusive of liberty (be it economic or social) for ALL people.

And by the way...I'd be interested in hearing the differences between Marxism, Stalinism, and Leninism (and hell why not Castroism) and whether you guys think the later isms grew necessarily out of Marxism as a byproduct of it or whether they were completely separate isms that grew solely out of a dictators ego and lust for complete power and control. Did they use a bastardized version of communism to satisfy their own lust for power or did they need to gain complete control over the population to maintain a communist state? Just curious to hear your take on it since it was brought up.

I'm confused. He said "You talk about liberty as a 'my money is mine' thing. As a New Lefty, I talk about liberty as gays being allowed to marry and non-whites having the right to live without racial profiling affecting their lives." Where do you get that he was accusing you of racism or homophobia (or anything for that matter)? He said that to him, liberty includes these things. Things you didn't happen to mention.

Strange reaction for a fellow who freely admits enjoying calling people to the political left of him "commies" just to get a reaction. Smears and generalizations are hardly the exclusive domain of the left Ruga. According to some of the posters here you would think that anyone that ever voted Liberal or NDP had horns, drank blood, and abused children. I'd say "Don't dish it out if you can't take it" except there was really nothing to take. I don't think you are a racist homophobe and I'm sure Roadkill doesn't think so either.

And just to clarify, I think I've voted solidly conservative (or some variant) for over 30 years. It's not that I'm fellow-traveller or anything. I just prefer reasoned discussion to demonizing people you don't agree with.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I'm confused. He said "You talk about liberty as a 'my money is mine' thing. As a New Lefty, I talk about liberty as gays being allowed to marry and non-whites having the right to live without racial profiling affecting their lives." Where do you get that he was accusing you of racism or homophobia (or anything for that matter)? He said that to him, liberty includes these things. Things you didn't happen to mention.

Strange reaction for a fellow who freely admits enjoying calling people to the political left of him "commies" just to get a reaction. Smears and generalizations are hardly the exclusive domain of the left Ruga. According to some of the posters here you would think that anyone that ever voted Liberal or NDP had horns, drank blood, and abused children. I'd say "Don't dish it out if you can't take it" except there was really nothing to take. I don't think you are a racist homophobe and I'm sure Roadkill doesn't think so either.

And just to clarify, I think I've voted solidly conservative (or some variant) for over 30 years. It's not that I'm fellow-traveller or anything. I just prefer reasoned discussion to demonizing people you don't agree with.

you're saying that people that vote Liberal or NDP DON'T drink blood??? Yeah right.

[roadkill]

Originally Posted by glen d.

The Supreme court rules that Quebecs Bill 101 violated the federal constitution and the Quebecs own charter of human rights.
English speaking canadians of that province were told that "Too Bad" by premier Bourassa and promptly invoked the notwith-standing clause to over rule the high court.

Alberta and its Western allies should be looking to opt out of the offical lanquage act just like Quebec did.

I remember that. Pi553d me off at the time. Of course, the notwithstanding clause is a temporary measure, and what ended up happening was that the law got somewhat mitigated by subsequent bills. These days you'll see a lot of bilingual signs and such, albeit only *inside* of restaurants and stores and yadda.

But Alberta at the west are already out of the official languages Act in terms of what the notwithstanding clause affected in Québec. You just don't have enough of a linguistic minority to push for bilingualism for the same things as you see us arguing about over here. This may change at some point in the future, but I don't think that French will be the problem at that point...

[roadkill]

Originally Posted by rugatika

you're saying that people that vote Liberal or NDP DON'T drink blood??? Yeah right.

Uh, I think the Libs might still drink blood, but us orange type make sandwiches out of hemp and soy byproducts. It's hell trying to get hemp fibres out from between your teeth, lemme tell you...

[blackpheasant]

Originally Posted by roadkill

Uh, I think the Libs might still drink blood, but us orange type make sandwiches out of hemp and soy byproducts. It's hell trying to get hemp fibres out from between your teeth, lemme tell you...

C'mon Roadie you must have a good supply of Kool Aid to wash all that hemp down with no....

[sikwhiskey]

As it stands right now! We Are all Slaves, Your children will be Slaves, and their children will be slaves! I have often wondered where DEBT comes from. The Govt Prints Money, with canadian Pulp and paper, Sells it back to us with Debt attached to it???? For printing Paper? One of the major reasons we Broke with the UK was Un Fair Taxes. The INCOME TAX, Was made for ww11, And not to be over 5%. We now pay 30% +. And most people Think its all Good. Ya Canada is Great!
How Much income do we waste on Bilingualism? Billions? I'm Tired of working for," Those Less Fortunet. The East be Dammed, Time to Say good bye. Take your French with you on the way out. BYE BYE
karl Marx Would be Proud of our Nation!

[roadkill]

Originally Posted by blackpheasant

C'mon Roadie you must have a good supply of Kool Aid to wash all that hemp down with no....

Hah. We don't need no stinking Kool-Aid! We grind our own drinks from iron smelted in our own back yards, and distill the dye from red flags as a colourant. It's not delicious, but it makes us good strong comrade-workers.

[maxpower2506]

Just add a little ground asbestos and VIOLA! oh wait Quebec only sells that poison to third world countries SORRY!!!

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by sikwhiskey

I have often wondered where DEBT comes from. The Govt Prints Money, with canadian Pulp and paper, Sells it back to us with Debt attached to it???? For printing Paper?

If it were only as simple as printing money. The debt comes from the gov't spending more money than they take from us in taxes. To really simplify it they can't print money without assets to back it up, so they borrow it, so we owe it and have debt.

[glen d.]

Listen up .... their coming, they call them French agitators in N.B.

One of their methods is to break the law by getting a parking or speeding ticket as an excuse to demand all services in French with threats of court action if not adequately delivered. Recent examples are, forcing Moncton City Hall to provide French services in all departments, bilingual street signs in Saint John at the cost of thousands of dollars even though French is only 5% of the population. The city of Fredericton with 5 or 6% has bowed to the same demands as well as providing simultaneous translation at council meetings at a cost of thousands of dollars per year. (With all these trumped up demands for French services, it isn't hard to see that the number of jobs required to fill that demand will rise proportionately. Since we will only require one person who speaks both languages to fill the position, the French bilingual speaker will "naturally" take the position and the unilingual English speaker will lose it, just like what happened to the Post Mistress in Pakenham).

[roadkill]

Originally Posted by glen d.

Listen up .... their coming, they call them French agitators in N.B.

One of their methods is to break the law by getting a parking or speeding ticket as an excuse to demand all services in French with threats of court action if not adequately delivered. Recent examples are, forcing Moncton City Hall to provide French services in all departments, bilingual street signs in Saint John at the cost of thousands of dollars even though French is only 5% of the population. The city of Fredericton with 5 or 6% has bowed to the same demands as well as providing simultaneous translation at council meetings at a cost of thousands of dollars per year. (With all these trumped up demands for French services, it isn't hard to see that the number of jobs required to fill that demand will rise proportionately. Since we will only require one person who speaks both languages to fill the position, the French bilingual speaker will "naturally" take the position and the unilingual English speaker will lose it, just like what happened to the Post Mistress in Pakenham).

Okay, whoah now. You're talking pure gas. New Brunswick is an officially bilingual province. On top of it, Moncton is an officially bilingual city, where only 65% or so of the population is Anglo. The stuff you're referring to won't happen in Alberta because you don't have the same language points entrenched in your legislation. The fact is that NB itself is a *lot* more than 5% Franco. There's nothing trumped-up going on there. Think about what you're reading before you turn around and post about it.