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  #31  
Old 12-18-2014, 07:55 PM
MooseRiverTrapper MooseRiverTrapper is online now
 
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Very interesting thanks for taking the time to post.
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  #32  
Old 12-18-2014, 08:19 PM
dmcbride dmcbride is online now
 
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Very interesting thanks for taking the time to post.
X2
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  #33  
Old 12-18-2014, 08:25 PM
edmhunter edmhunter is offline
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Thank you for giving all of us your time and vast and studied opinion on this subject, wow is all I have to say, I for one had no idea!

I have been on this site for about 4 months, and very often I see posts that wolves are every where.

My question is this: In the areas of the province where wolves are now seen and the tracks are seen everywhere (according to posters) I would like to know if they have a significant impact on the mortality rate of deer, elk and moose or do bears still take more ungulates then wolves in these zones ? For instance zones like 507, 510, 505, 506.

Again, I appreciate your input and time that you took to educate us and wish you a Merry Christmas and a healthy and prosperous 2015.
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  #34  
Old 12-18-2014, 11:13 PM
Brian Bildson Brian Bildson is offline
 
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I participated in an wolf research program on the Kakwa in the 90's with a researcher called Jerry Kuzik. He recorded the largest pack size to date in Alberta at 18 wolves, 17 of which were pitch black.

Jerry told a story or retrieving caribou calves stashed in snow banks in Alaska, by bears.

I support the efforts of the GC local and agree 100%.
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  #35  
Old 12-19-2014, 09:06 AM
CritterCommander CritterCommander is offline
 
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It is up to us to bring these concerns to the attention of not only the minister but also our local MLA's. In my case the local MLA is a back bencher who just might need something to do, so will be doing my best to compose an email to him explaining all this, which isn't going to be easy by any stretch! Word smithing is not really my strong suit but let's get started!
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  #36  
Old 12-19-2014, 09:42 AM
calgarychef calgarychef is online now
 
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Mr. Stewart, I was once told that bears kill about 60% of moose calves, do you think that's an accurate number?
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  #37  
Old 12-19-2014, 10:49 AM
nicaragua nicaragua is offline
 
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Originally Posted by calgarychef View Post
Mr. Stewart, I was once told that bears kill about 60% of moose calves, do you think that's an accurate number?
The answer is of course range dependent and tied to the combination of moose and bear populations in the area, but they could take up to 60% of moose calves in some ranges. Bears are opportunistic feeders and their behaviour is linked to plant phenology in the spring. Phenology refers to the timing of plant events, so if you have an early spring and popular and aspen flower early, bears have a food source that could distract them from habitats where moose and/or other ungulates may be calving. I did a lot of research on phenology back in the 1970s and we demonstrated over a 19 year period the range in days between early and late spring green up and it was more than 30 days- to foraging wildlife that is a lot.

There is also research from alberta where bears have been shown to be the primary predator of elk calves. A bear does not discriminate a calf of one species from another.

I am going to give you a posting of some videos to watch that were taken by people just out in the bush and the opportunity they had to observe bears in action

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDEW-nIg844

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLLd5OOgL8Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y60doLjqeu0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfAIQGk2Bh8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xt-Eqrvp4B0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SqqG_LUss0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBBmdays-c4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap4A2A_3WJY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M12HHvXSKno

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7AjLFLeW34

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iCzcazLOUs


If people are interested I can post access to a number of excellent articles on bear predation of calves of all sorts
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  #38  
Old 12-19-2014, 11:06 AM
dsh352 dsh352 is offline
 
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Default Poisoned ecosystem

The issue here is not really just wolf control. It's about the destruction of the entire ecosystem. I have a trapline in the area being talked about and have had it for 15 years. This year our annual spring beaver trapping trip to a remote cabin saw no canine tracks of any sort. We harvested a few beavers the first day and drug the carcasses for over a km along the major river in the area and left them on the river bank for the animals to clean up. After a week nothing had touched them. Not even picked at by a raven. In fact I never even saw a raven the entire week. ZERO. Not even one. Usually I see dozens per day. Even our resident family of whiskey jacks we have been feeding for 15 years was absent. To say something has changed and something is seriously wrong is an understatement. I have been doing this for 15 years and have never seen anything like it.
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  #39  
Old 12-19-2014, 11:30 AM
dsh352 dsh352 is offline
 
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Mr Stewart is 100% correct with all his statements. My trapline has had no appreciable wolves or coyotes for many years yet the caribou survival has not really changed. Maybe it's not the wolves? I know the bears are killing more than people realize. Most moose cows I see don't have any calves with likely about one third having one calf. Herds of cow elk have only a few calves as well. The wolves aren't getting them because there hasn't been any left here for a few years now. And I haven't even seen a black bear on my line for at least 8 years now either. What I am seeing is LOTS of grizzly bears. More than I ever have before. Every trip usually results in a sighting of at least one or at least numerous fresh signs.
Now don't get me wrong. I'm not a wolf lover. I'm a hunter and a trapper. But I do like to see and hear them on the trapline trails. I just don't think they are the main problem for the caribou.
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  #40  
Old 12-19-2014, 01:28 PM
nicaragua nicaragua is offline
 
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Originally Posted by dsh352 View Post
The issue here is not really just wolf control. It's about the destruction of the entire ecosystem. I have a trapline in the area being talked about and have had it for 15 years. This year our annual spring beaver trapping trip to a remote cabin saw no canine tracks of any sort. We harvested a few beavers the first day and drug the carcasses for over a km along the major river in the area and left them on the river bank for the animals to clean up. After a week nothing had touched them. Not even picked at by a raven. In fact I never even saw a raven the entire week. ZERO. Not even one. Usually I see dozens per day. Even our resident family of whiskey jacks we have been feeding for 15 years was absent. To say something has changed and something is seriously wrong is an understatement. I have been doing this for 15 years and have never seen anything like it.
Yes what you are saying is at the root of my argument with the government and university researchers in that we are much better to leave some things alone. here is the logic. Industry has chopped up the habitat creating a general environment more conducive to moose, elk and deer, and because of this there are more wolves, and because there are more wolves, more caribou are being killed by them. There is not however any proof of this despite years of research. About 60-70% of newborn caribou calves do not survive beyond 6 weeks of life, and the rate of loss of adults to wolves is not considered to be extraordinary. Because they believed it was wolves, and if they did not intercede, caribou would surely disappear under this theory. So they take the Little Smokey and kill all the wolves both in the little smokey and all the uplands surrounding the area. If they are right, there are going to be a lot more moose and elk and deer which should make hunters happy. But wolves kept pouring in from surrounding habitats- this is a natural dispersal, but now there is a bigger food source than ever. Ten years of what they claimed to be complete removal of wolves, and the caribou population has fallen by a couple of animals. Now they have to kill the moose and elk too because they are so many as to keep drawing wolves. And hey, here is an idea- why do we not shoot the moose and elk and fill them full of poison. That should make you unhappy.

Making matters worse they start doing some wild math to say the caribou population is improving. If someone suggest that a drop for 80 to 78n animals is a positive response you had better give your head a shake.

Meanwhile, calf survival stays low. Now the same people figure it is a better idea to expand the wolf cull- if we kill enough of them eventually we will get more caribou. Now let me tell you something- caribou populations might increase by 5 or 10 animals due to natural events but I guarantee you they will be claiming the second coming of the lord.

This is where you tax dollars go. I am of the belief that we can solve this problem with more critical thought. I am sure they would love to start killing bears too, but have obviously decided people might get a little ****ed. So they are backed into a corner. They are terrified to stop killing wolves because they fear the caribou might go down. Kind of a vicious circle.

I have a big problem with all this because the original science was very bad simply because they failed to consider the role of bears.

The next issue of course is why have tax dollars been used for this. If it was oil and gas and forestry that precipitated the problem, what happened to placing the responsibility to solve the problem on their shoulders. As I said I approached industry with an idea as to how to deal with the bears without killing them- they were interested, but as they have funded most of the research on wolves they too are kind of stuck. Add to that that the government refused to discuss the matter with industry and myself- industry wanted to call a meeting to discuss my concepts. So I had to go elsewhere to test my ideas.

Do you see something wrong with this picture, Industry CAN solve the problem, but as long as government is doing their job for them, they would be foolish to complain. This used to be called a `catch 22`or being caught between a rock and hard place.

IT IS PATHETIC to say the least.
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  #41  
Old 12-19-2014, 01:39 PM
dsh352 dsh352 is offline
 
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Well said Mr Stewart.
And 100% true
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  #42  
Old 12-19-2014, 05:00 PM
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A couple of questions for Nicaragua.

Where did you obtain the Alberta wolf population estimate and what year was it released?

ESRD estimated a mean provincial wolf population of 4200 back in 1993.
Then the wolf population estimate climbed to 7000 in 2008.

I find it very hard to accept that there has not been a significant increase in the provincial wolf population from 2008 and 2014.

Do you believe that there has been no increase in the provincial wolf population since 2008?
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  #43  
Old 12-19-2014, 08:29 PM
nicaragua nicaragua is offline
 
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I just went online and and reported an estimated provided by the government of Alberta. Basically the same resources we all use for broad estimates. Even if we agree there has been a significant increase in wolves, which I do not argue or will debate because i do not know, we can probably argue that the bear populations estimates are very conservative as well. The problem here however, is not with the numbers, because frankly there is not a biologist in this province that could even begin to suggest they could place reasonable confidence limits on the numbers. By the way the same is true for woodland caribou, although respecting that species we do need to accept that literally millions of dollars have been poured into the pockets of the consulting industry to count caribou. I am most cynical about the system here and the failure of the Wildlife Federations to stand up and be counted.

When I was a young biologist in Saskatchewan I was in love with the SWF, but heck that was 30 years ago, a time when the Ed Begin's and Ed Kennets of the world wielded huge political clout. This was an era when First Nations under the guidance of Roland Crowe and Wildlife Federations worked together in the interests of resources and wildlife in a big way.

I, as n independent biologist used to have access to the Federation and frequently gave talks and seminars to rally the troups around causes, Today however we are basically a bunch of internet whiners- me included.

Guys, we need to get involved if we aare going to make a change. I can give you access to all kinds of information as have been fighting this for 18 months. There are a couple of guys with passion, but if we really want good management in this province it is our job to stand up. I will give you access to a Quirks and Quarks sound byte from November 29th that clearly states the leading caribou scientist's take on the caribou problem and the justification for a long campaign to kill wolves.

http://www.cbc.ca/quirks/2014/11/29/2014-11-29-2/

Listen carefully. This was delivered only a few weeks ago. I received the Freedom ofg Information data last april for gods sake that said their were almost 1000 wolves killed. This guy tells Canada that maybe 700 or 800 in a decade and then suggests the kill may be 200/year. Interesting because I talked to the guy that did the work and he said it was 200/year and also suggested that a lot more than 170 moose had been whacked. But these are conversations- not documented facts so it is not responsible to say more.

I have a lot of energy for this, but it is up to you folks to carry the torch. I will stand up and speak anywhere and anytime against wildlife injustice. I am not an Albertan although I have lived in Calgary a number of years. But I do know this situation very well and an a little pis*ed at the science community and industry for blindly supporting them, and at the government looking for political expediency in its offerings. Hell we all know that this province is an arm of the oil industry, and has been since the bitumen resources were discovered and mapped. Forty years ago the middle east held us hostage for a lack of oil and now we are hostage for the excess. Drink from whatever cup you wish but at least check what is in the mix.

This is a small forum- why the heck are we discussing this in a trappers forum. If you want to elevate the dialogue I am quite willing to step up to the plate. otherwise we have 2 or 3 guys carrying the torch. Sorry boys and girls we need people that love this province and irs resources a little more than a side show at the circus.

You take charge and I will be your servant.
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  #44  
Old 12-19-2014, 08:35 PM
nicaragua nicaragua is offline
 
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And one more thing. I am driving to Weyburn to see my mother she turns 91 tomorrow and she still has passion.

A very merry Christmas to you all. And if you are in Calgary January 8th, drop by the Husky Tower at noon where I will be giving a presentation about the potential solutions to this problem. This goes for those who agree and disagree with me but for once, lets really get involved and raise a little hell for a change.


http://www.aspb.ab.ca/events/black-bear-deterrents

Merry Xmas
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  #45  
Old 12-19-2014, 10:30 PM
RockyMountainMusic RockyMountainMusic is offline
 
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Originally Posted by nicaragua View Post
And one more thing. I am driving to Weyburn to see my mother she turns 91 tomorrow and she still has passion.

A very merry Christmas to you all. And if you are in Calgary January 8th, drop by the Husky Tower at noon where I will be giving a presentation about the potential solutions to this problem. This goes for those who agree and disagree with me but for once, lets really get involved and raise a little hell for a change.


http://www.aspb.ab.ca/events/black-bear-deterrents

Merry Xmas
I just want to thank you for your time on all of this, had a long day on the Trapline and driving so I still need to re read some of this! The world needs more people like you in it though! Thanks for your help!I will have more to comment on tomorrow! And thank all who are taking the time to write and demand answers! The ones without the rose colored glasses on anyway!
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  #46  
Old 12-19-2014, 11:59 PM
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I have no problem with efforts to control wolf populations except when Strychnine is used irresponsibly.

Yes, irresponsibly.
I have not seen how they are employing this poison but the numbers of non target kills tells me they don't know what they are doing.

There is a way to use Strychnine that almost eliminates such non target kills and clearly they are not using it. This tells me they are placing baits in on or near the bait carcass which will result in many non target kills and it WILL result in less then ideal Wolf kills.

Aside from the horrible death that Strychnine causes, it's residual effects make it imperative that only properly trained, experienced personal be allowed to use it. This is clearly not the case here.

I'll step out on a limb here and state that they are not looking or not telling the truth about the real numbers of non target kills.

When one poisons the draw bait, a number of victims will not get a proper dose. Some will get too mush and will vomit resulting in delayed death or severe illness and survival. Others will get too little resulting in the same slow death if severe illness.
Still others will become weary of the bait and either not eat enough to kill or get severely ill and they will learn to avoid any such baits making them that much harder to control.

I will not spell out the proper way to use this poison because I don't believe it should be used under any circumstance. Moreover, I don't want to educate those who would use it illegally.
But I will say, done properly, it may be acceptable to many. The way it is being done now should be resisted by ALL who love nature. All of nature.
Because the way it is being employed now it will have lasting effects on all nature. Not just on the target animals or the bait species used. But on every living warm blooded creature that comes in contact with it, either through eating poisoned bait or by eating creatures kill by this poison.

Every kill that isn't found, every kill that isn't properly disposed of has the potential to kill many other creatures.
This is the most irresponsible action a government can take against OUR wildlife.

That's right, it is OUR wildlife, not theirs. They work for us, on our behalf.
Under authority we give them. We need to call them to account for this.
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  #47  
Old 12-20-2014, 01:12 AM
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Well said Keg.
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  #48  
Old 12-20-2014, 07:59 AM
nicaragua nicaragua is offline
 
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oh yess and check this out and go down and look what someone in the Alberta government listed as foods of black bears- LOL. They need to sanitize their information.

http://esrd.alberta.ca/fish-wildlife...lack-bear.aspx

see if they leave it or remove it
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  #49  
Old 12-20-2014, 08:19 AM
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Would like to thank Mr. Stewart for all the info. that he has provided on this thread. Darn, some of those you tube vids. were hard to watch, even though it's just the way things happen naturally in the forest.
Listened to the CBC program, and though the biologist Stan Boutin (sp?) sounded quite knowledgeble and sincere in his study of Caribou decline, he just mentions in passing any bear problems, and nothing at all is said about poisons being used on wolves. His main point is that it is the introduction of man made corriders (roads, pipelines etc.), and the destruction of caribou habitat from forestry operations that has allowed wolfs to have much greater access to the caribou. Don't see any solution to that problem ever happening in AB.
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  #50  
Old 12-20-2014, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt L. View Post
I'm not talking in general. I'm talking about this specific area where the gov is conducting a specific poisoning program specifically to save caribou. And it's not working. Why?
I heard it was working great an the caribou had stopped declining. There is a cost for all this but long term spin off should be good. The wolf population is exploding all over the province and the ungulates are decreasing. Not many trapper specifically no how to target wolves. Many own trap lines just to have a cabin on crown land. There is always a cost for progress. If your going to have industry and we will and need to it creates allot of connectivity and you need predator management to keep things in balance. Wolves don't self regulate their population they increase until the starve or die from internal strife. Areas that that has happened in are void of almost any game for years and years. Good on the government for taking on such a dirty tasks in today's mindset.
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  #51  
Old 12-20-2014, 09:08 AM
dsh352 dsh352 is offline
 
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The issue here is not about just killing wolves. My main concern is the use of strychnine poisoning that is killing EVERYTHING. It is totally irresponsible to place out poison and not check the sites for 8 days weather permitting. Anything dead will have been fed on for numerous days resulting in huge amounts of incidental kills. The GOA is killing our wildlife and destroying our ecosystem.
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  #52  
Old 12-20-2014, 10:15 AM
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Does anyone know if strychnine is being used exclusively, what about the canine specific 1080, also keg river what's to say they don't imply the best practices for applying te poison?
Surely on large project there is alway some collateral damage?? I am sure studies were conducted prior to all this, this is not just a bunch of stupid people running around in the bush poisoning everything. Still I am open to learning.....
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  #53  
Old 12-20-2014, 10:24 AM
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Nicaragua, thanks for posting your knowledge and research. No disrespect but you are a independent bio trying to sell and idea to the gov and industry for $$$. None leathal means are a romantic and easy to palette idea...... But
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  #54  
Old 12-20-2014, 10:34 AM
edmhunter edmhunter is offline
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When it comes to reducing wolf populations aerial attacks are very effective and very targeted and has been done for years.

But like nicaragua said, bears not wolves are the main culprits in killing fawn ungulates. With that said and the research I did online, wolves average 15 deer kills per year. 7,000 wolves ='s 105,000.00 deer! not to mention Moose or Elk.
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  #55  
Old 12-20-2014, 10:50 AM
CritterCommander CritterCommander is offline
 
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Plus all the Elk Moose and Deer that are aerial gunned for bait.

Cougars make an ungulate kill approximately once per week. Do we need to start gunning them to save Caribou too? Where does this end?
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  #56  
Old 12-20-2014, 11:27 AM
edmhunter edmhunter is offline
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Originally Posted by CritterCommander View Post
Plus all the Elk Moose and Deer that are aerial gunned for bait.

Cougars make an ungulate kill approximately once per week. Do we need to start gunning them to save Caribou too? Where does this end?
Was not taking cougars or using ungulates for bait, was talking about controlling and reducing the growing wolf population, is all.
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  #57  
Old 12-20-2014, 12:27 PM
dsh352 dsh352 is offline
 
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Like I said this is not about wolves. I totally agree that there are a lot of wolves around the province. But they are basically non existent in the Little Smoky area. Yet the caribou aren't really improving. If there was nothing eating the calves they would all survive. But this isn't happening. Something else is killing the calves. And it's not the wolves. Cause they aren't there.
If the GOA still wants to scapegoat the wolves and aerial gun them at least they are only killing the wolves. I just have a problem with them killing ravens eagles lynx wolverines etc. The strychnine has to stop. I've seen the results and it ain't pretty.
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  #58  
Old 12-20-2014, 12:53 PM
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correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't the easiest and cheapest solution be to open a wolf (and coyote) baiting season through the winter, while the bears are sleeping. I would drag the barrels back out for a new years wolf hunt, I have wanted some wolf skin pants for a long time.
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  #59  
Old 12-20-2014, 01:01 PM
RockyMountainMusic RockyMountainMusic is offline
 
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This thread is FULL of so many things wrong that is happening but it keeps coming back to wolves, shows how easy it is to brainwash people I guess, so a guy with the Trapline in the caribou range has no wolves everything is poisoned they are clear cutting with no rules and people are only talking about wolf numbers! You go hunting and see fewer animals and it's the wolves doing it not the helicopters shooting healthy animals or the 10000 big rigs splattering everything... I heard there are 2500 animal insurance claims a month in AB, u can bet that's not the big rigs with the bush bumpers claiming that and u know they are taking out more! We get it people we all get it no one wants over populated wolves running around killing everything, and I'm all for killing predators but there is so much more going on here that is wrong than just shooting some wolves to save caribou! I have heard the comment about a cabin on a Trapline and not trapping and I can't say it doesn't happen but I can tell u it's not the majority! So maybe that's another thing to pressure the gov with! I also trap the area we are talking about and though there are next to no wolves left the clear cutting hasn't slowed down! The heli shoots may work at a huge cost but I personally think people motivated with a bounty would be just as successful that has be proven over and over again
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Old 12-20-2014, 01:03 PM
RockyMountainMusic RockyMountainMusic is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowdog View Post
correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't the easiest and cheapest solution be to open a wolf (and coyote) baiting season through the winter, while the bears are sleeping. I would drag the barrels back out for a new years wolf hunt, I have wanted some wolf skin pants for a long time.
What is stopping u from doing this now? They are both open to do that!
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