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Old 02-24-2017, 10:22 AM
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Default Just witnessed a crazy accident!

I just got to work this morning after watching a mildly lifted F250 on Duratracs lose control on the Deerfoot at no more than 100kph on bare bare, cold pavement. There was a minivan in front of me and he was in front of the minivan and had a car in front of him. We were all doing the same speed southbound when we came up on a slower car in the left lane and he tried moving around the slow moving car when he lost control. The fellow ended up coming back left sliding sideways, crossed completely over the meridian still sliding sideways and ended up in the northbound lanes facing north. He came to a dead stop just as a big 5 ton truck came upon him. The 5 ton driver reacted fast enough to just barely kiss his bumper corner enough to wiggle the truck but not crunch him... SOOOOO LUCKY!!!

Anyhow, all parties were fine short of full underwear, but it is a good reminder to not overdrive for how your vehicle is equipped.

So please take this as just a friendly reminder friends...

Duratracs, KO2's, Grabber ATII's etc are NOT REAL WINTER TIRES!!! They are not ice tires no matter what your buddy tells you. No tire that is durable enough for year round use will stay soft when the temperatures are cold and do not provide enhanced ice traction in these situations.

I have no issue with people using all season/weather tires in the winter at all, but I do take issue when people assume that their traction is still superior when it is icy out. Just because you haven't found your tires maximum abilities yet doesn't mean it won't come up and bite you eventually, which really applies to genuine winter tires as well as no tire is invincible, but the more oriented to the conditions it is, the greater the level of traction you will have.

So to repeat, please make sure you are being more careful when it is slick and drive according to the conditions and how your vehicle is equipped. You may feel invincible out there, but you are not...
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Old 02-24-2017, 10:36 AM
Pudelpointer Pudelpointer is offline
 
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IMO none of the tires you mention are even "pretend" winter tires, never mind "real".

When my wife and I moved to AB many moons ago she insisted getting winter tires on her car. Having grown up and lived my entire life on the coast of BC I didn't see the point of spending $800 on a second set of tires, but she was from ON and put her foot down. First day on crappy roads and I understood. There is absolutely no comparison between "all season" or "all terrain" tires and winter tires.

I run all season tires on my 4x4, but I never drive it in winter unless the snow is just too deep for my Jetta. When I do drive it, caution is the word of the day; spinning out, sliding off the road or sliding through a stop are constant concern.

Nokian makes an all season that is about a 1/2 winter tire, remaining sticky down to maybe -7 or so, however there is no free lunch, as they wear fast if you run them all summer.
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Old 02-24-2017, 10:39 AM
32-40win 32-40win is offline
 
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One of our mechanics was heading to work a couple of wks ago from Cochrane on Hwy 22 to Hwy 8. Hit some black ice, turned 90deg and head on into another vehicle. Having his memorial today, 31 yrs old, left a wife and a 2 yr old. It can happen just that quick.
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Old 02-24-2017, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by 32-40win View Post
One of our mechanics was heading to work a couple of wks ago from Cochrane on Hwy 22 to Hwy 8. Hit some black ice, turned 90deg and head on into another vehicle. Having his memorial today, 31 yrs old, left a wife and a 2 yr old. It can happen just that quick.
Damn man.... I am sorry to hear that. Condolences to all friends and family.
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Old 02-24-2017, 10:45 AM
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Why are duratracks studdable, are winter tires only allowed to be studded, also it has the mountain snowflake on them???
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Old 02-24-2017, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by bubba 96 View Post
Why are duratracks studdable, are winter tires only allowed to be studded, also it has the mountain snowflake on them???
They are studdable so you can increase your ice traction.

The 3PMS (3 peak mountain snowflake) had good intentions when it was conceived, in that it was supposed to differentiate winter tires from all season tires, but the sad truth is it is an industry regulated marking and does not require a minimum standard by government. In 1999, The U.S. Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA) and the Rubber Association of Canada (RAC) agreed on a performance based standard to identify passenger and light truck tires that attain a traction index equal to, or greater than 110 (compared to a reference tire which is rated 100) during the specified American Society for Testing and Materials traction tests on packed snow. The new standard helps ensure that drivers can easily identify tires that provide a higher level of snow traction. It has nothing to do with ice traction.

Don't buy into the marketing. Any tire that is capable of everything is not great at anything. The old adage, "A jack of all trades is a master of none" is most applicable...
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Old 02-24-2017, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by tirebob View Post
They are studdable so you can increase your ice traction.

The 3PMS (3 peak mountain snowflake) had good intentions when it was conceived, in that it was supposed to differentiate winter tires from all season tires, but the sad truth is it is an industry regulated marking and does not require a minimum standard by government. In 1999, The U.S. Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA) and the Rubber Association of Canada (RAC) agreed on a performance based standard to identify passenger and light truck tires that attain a traction index equal to, or greater than 110 (compared to a reference tire which is rated 100) during the specified American Society for Testing and Materials traction tests on packed snow. The new standard helps ensure that drivers can easily identify tires that provide a higher level of snow traction. It has nothing to do with ice traction.

Don't buy into the marketing. Any tire that is capable of everything is not great at anything. The old adage, "A jack of all trades is a master of none" is most applicable...
makes sense, I however run a winter set, have cooper discovery m+s studded winters on my f150..
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Old 02-24-2017, 11:08 AM
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makes sense, I however run a winter set, have cooper studded winters on my f150..
I will say again, I am absolutely not someone who says you must have winter tires to survive winter, but make sure you are not over-driving what you have. People think they are properly equipped when they are not and end up over their head before they know it and after it is too late to do anything about it.
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Old 02-24-2017, 11:10 AM
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I have studded duratracks. They work fine for me. Not all that many "winter" tire options in 325/60R20 that can handle an 18,000 lb trailer. Run 37x13.5 MT's in the summer.
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Old 02-24-2017, 11:15 AM
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Studs definitely help! I have a 2wd F150 and use studded Firestone Winterforce myself. Even still I can find myself slipping around if I am not paying attention, but recovery is soooo much easier!
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Old 02-24-2017, 11:16 AM
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i myself don't believe in any winter tires or studs i drive to the conditions. i have seen people have too much confidence in winter tires. and we all see what happens.
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Old 02-24-2017, 11:18 AM
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Not saying this necessarily applies in any of these cases, but I know far too many people who think 'I've got 4WD or AWD...I'm invincible'.
I just don't get it...we live in a country that has snow on the ground for 1/3 of the year and driving in slippery conditions is not part of your road test
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Old 02-24-2017, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by tirebob View Post
I will say again, I am absolutely not someone who says you must have winter tires to survive winter, but make sure you are not over-driving what you have. People think they are properly equipped when they are not and end up over their head before they know it and after it is too late to do anything about it.
I totally agree with you, I see so many people not driving to road conditions, I just don't know what they are thinking..I grew up in the elk valley in the 80's worked at the ski hill in fernie, some days it took over an hr to get from sparwood to fernie because of conditions, but you still see guys doing mach 1, and you know damn well they wont stop if need to..
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Old 02-24-2017, 11:37 AM
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Jezz wonder how we ever survived driving back in the 70's with the old factory high rise Ford F250 with bias ply 7:50 x16 Goodyear tires
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Old 02-24-2017, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by darren32 View Post
I have studded duratracks. They work fine for me. Not all that many "winter" tire options in 325/60R20 that can handle an 18,000 lb trailer. Run 37x13.5 MT's in the summer.
Then perhaps get some smaller diameter wheels? On 3/4 or 1 ton pickups I've never understood the trend towards wider diameter wheels other than what is necessary to clear the brake calipers. Beyond that you're losing valuable sidewall to protect the wheels from curb damage and get forced into more expensive tires. Note that the same model trucks in the base contractor configurations will have small wheels and less expensive tires, and those will fit the Lariat's and Denali's and Laramie's of the truck world. Looking at the physics one should consider that a wider diameter wheel will have more weight further away from the centre of the axle, adding rotational mass or redistributing it further out the radius has a detrimental effect on braking & acceleration, so far as cornering goes that's a small trade off: one must remember it's a heavy pickup and not a Lotus Elise.
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Old 02-24-2017, 12:03 PM
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Then perhaps get some smaller diameter wheels? On 3/4 or 1 ton pickups I've never understood the trend towards wider diameter wheels other than what is necessary to clear the brake calipers.
Shiny.
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Old 02-24-2017, 12:09 PM
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Jezz wonder how we ever survived driving back in the 70's with the old factory high rise Ford F250 with bias ply 7:50 x16 Goodyear tires
Yep and those split rims made changing out your tires a piece of cake for the handy kind of guy.
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Old 02-24-2017, 12:18 PM
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I run non-studded Duratrac's year round on my 3/4 ton diesel. Never had much of an issue but next year I'm going to purchase a set of actual winters for next year. Few hundred bucks off Kijiji this spring for a set of 75% tread winters vs a potentially totaled truck seems like a reasonable trade off.
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Old 02-24-2017, 12:26 PM
Jeron Kahyar Jeron Kahyar is offline
 
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Yep and those split rims made changing out your tires a piece of cake for the handy kind of guy.
And a death trap for the not so handy guy.
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Old 02-24-2017, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by jstubbs View Post
I run non-studded Duratrac's year round on my 3/4 ton diesel. Never had much of an issue but next year I'm going to purchase a set of actual winters for next year. Few hundred bucks off Kijiji this spring for a set of 75% tread winters vs a potentially totaled truck seems like a reasonable trade off.
In the interest of honesty and clarity, I will say that LT (Load Range C/6 ply and higher) winter tires do not have near as much of the truly softer winter rubber compounds as do the Standard load P rated winter tires, simply because the more heavy duty trucks (3/4 ton and higher) would destroy soft compounds compared to half ton trucks and smaller vehicles, so you won't get as much of a benefit on pure ice unless they are studded. I wouldn't say they are not somewhat of an improvement for sure, but still be extra cautious on ice...
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Old 02-24-2017, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by sjr View Post
Jezz wonder how we ever survived driving back in the 70's with the old factory high rise Ford F250 with bias ply 7:50 x16 Goodyear tires
Well perhaps back then people could actually drive. These days we have special winter tires, traction control, AWD, anti-lock brakes and collision avoidance technology. I would be surprised if the accident ratio per Km's driven in winter conditions has gone down much over time.

So with these advancements, what's causing the off-set? Perhaps declining driver quality and skill along with an unreasonable reliance on technology to do the driving for us?
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Old 02-24-2017, 12:38 PM
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Jezz wonder how we ever survived driving back in the 70's with the old factory high rise Ford F250 with bias ply 7:50 x16 Goodyear tires
It was easier to find a driver with a thimble full of brains back then,,,,
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Old 02-24-2017, 12:47 PM
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Global warming has made this millennium's ice more slippery than it was back in the 70's. And old age has made the 70's more glamorous too...

SS
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Old 02-24-2017, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by sjr View Post
Jezz wonder how we ever survived driving back in the 70's with the old factory high rise Ford F250 with bias ply 7:50 x16 Goodyear tires
I don't think it was much different. I remember working for my parents service/repair station. Every time it snowed it would be a giant mess with cars in the ditch and accidents everywhere then too. The tow truck driver would be run off his feet non-stop.

I also think the fact is that there are waaaay more cars on the road today, and that translates into realistically the same proportions of bad and new drivers as there was back then, only now the actually quantity of these driver is higher. I often tell people that they are not putting on winter tires so THEY can drive better, but more to help avoid those that can't when the situation arises.
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Old 02-24-2017, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by SamSteele View Post
Global warming has made this millennium's ice more slippery than it was back in the 70's. And old age has made the 70's more glamorous too...

SS
The snow was dryer in the 1970's , that made driving much easier,

so did 4 wheel drum brakes and no power steering ,

Of coarse in those days the spectacle of sanding/salting trucks was kinda like a Sasquatch sighting too
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Old 02-24-2017, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by CaberTosser View Post
Then perhaps get some smaller diameter wheels? On 3/4 or 1 ton pickups I've never understood the trend towards wider diameter wheels other than what is necessary to clear the brake calipers. Beyond that you're losing valuable sidewall to protect the wheels from curb damage and get forced into more expensive tires. Note that the same model trucks in the base contractor configurations will have small wheels and less expensive tires, and those will fit the Lariat's and Denali's and Laramie's of the truck world. Looking at the physics one should consider that a wider diameter wheel will have more weight further away from the centre of the axle, adding rotational mass or redistributing it further out the radius has a detrimental effect on braking & acceleration, so far as cornering goes that's a small trade off: one must remember it's a heavy pickup and not a Lotus Elise.
IMHE, the most important things for a happy winter are very good tires and battery.

I submit that the best investment you can make for a new (to you) vehicle, is a set of standard steel wheels, mounted with very good tires suitable for your winter driving conditions. A used set of rims from a wrecker can be less than the cost of just one remount and rebalance.

You then avoid the seasonal rush AND RECURRING COST to get your tires remounted and balanced during the first snowfall when the shops are busy and again in the spring. When you have a set on rims the changeover is a simple job in your driveway or garage that will take less time and effort than going to a busy tire shop. I keep a more suitable jack so I do not need to get out, use & replace the usually flimsy and more difficult to use stowed jack.
Using steel wheels for winter will protect your shiny soft metal wheels from winter gravel and salt and the wear of remounting.
You will also likely get a few more miles out of tires that have tread just fine for summer use but not worth the cost of remounting.

Good Luck, YMMV.
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Old 02-24-2017, 02:54 PM
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Well perhaps back then people could actually drive. These days we have special winter tires, traction control, AWD, anti-lock brakes and collision avoidance technology. I would be surprised if the accident ratio per Km's driven in winter conditions has gone down much over time.

So with these advancements, what's causing the off-set? Perhaps declining driver quality and skill along with an unreasonable reliance on technology to do the driving for us?
2 million people vs 4.4 million. Just because you lived doesn't mean it was safer.
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Old 02-24-2017, 03:54 PM
YYC338 YYC338 is offline
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2 million people vs 4.4 million. Just because you lived doesn't mean it was safer.
Understand the math. Population increase would account for 2.2 times the number of accidents assuming there weren't any advancements in vehicle safety.

I'm guessing were seeing more than 2.2 times the number of accidents even with the advancements I mentioned although I don't have the data to back it up.

What I referenced was a ratio to miles driven which would be irrespective of population increase.
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Old 02-24-2017, 04:03 PM
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I run dedicated snow tires on both our car & truck. The biggest problem here in S. Alberta is that the temperature can be up in the teens during a chinook, wearing down your snow tires like crazy, for extended periods every winter, - or you can expect snow in April or September when still running your summer tires!
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Old 02-24-2017, 05:16 PM
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My duratracs are pretty good on the titan with the the vdc on work pretty good. Whether u have winter tires, studded tires or summer. U gotta keep ur distance and be on alert. And a lift kit will make it even worse
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