Minors and Alcohol

[Geraldsh]

But if you knowingly allow your child to go to that house you are turning over temporary guardianship to those parents.....?

[CaberTosser]

I'm in agreement with those suggesting to allow their own kids modest amounts of alcohol when they're around 15. I won't suggest to provide it to other people kids without express consent from those kids parents. Showing how to drink responsibly is an important lesson, one cannot simply have their 18th birthday and go from 0-100 right off the bat.

Small amounts of wine or beer at dinner, showing them by example that it's not necessary to get blind drunk to have a good time (in fact that the best times all happen when excess consumption is avoided, excess consumption makes for bad times).

Who here ever attended a Safe Grad? I did in the 1980's and I recall that despite the majority of the attendee's being under 18 there was a lot of drinking and it was all allowed. The goal was to prevent drunk driving or alcohol poisoning tragedies and it was successfull at achieving that. We were all bussed to a confined event location rurally and then bussed home afterwards. To prevent being followed by non-ticket buyers/ party crashers the buses all pulled over at a set of weight scales for about 15-20 minutes en route to the event as the location was outside of town. I can support this type of event and will happily help out with one when my son is that age. I don't know how they managed to undertake such an event legally or whether it was simply decided by planners in conjunction with common-sense law enforcement authorities that the benefits outweighed the risk, and in fact it was the smartest thing to do to mitigate the risk of a bunch of drunken teens in the uncontrolled partying that would have invariably happened anyways.

I could see the current trend towards legal liability and such killing events like these, and young people dying as a result. I hope Safe Grad parties are still a thing. I think caring about the youngsters enough involves knowing what is in their nature to try and to do and to help them make mature decisions when doing so. A stoic "NO" might make some feel good and in charge and perhaps even following their particular religious practices, but it should be tempered with the thought pattern what they'd like to happen versus what will likely happen. Arm your kids with knowledge and experience.

[Okotok]

Originally Posted by ctd

Lol comming from the same website that changed the firearms rules withbout a change in law. Semms like ZNN news.

We get to live with the law as the RCMP interprets it regardless of what we think of it. I'm pretty sure the criminal code trumps the AGLC. Confusing in any event. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...tion-1.4120895

[ctd]

Originally Posted by Geraldsh

But if you knowingly allow your child to go to that house you are turning over temporary guardianship to those parents.....?

I do not have time post a copy of legal Guardianship.
If you want you can look it up. Guardians have to be appointed by a court.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by ctd

I do not have time post a copy of legal Guardianship.
If you want you can look it up. Guardians have to be appointed by a court.

Yes, people who are not legal guardians who supply alcohol to minors who are not their children can be charged. Don't feed liquor to other peoples children, those parents might not appreciate it. They could have you charged. Even if parents do give you permission I wouldn't do it. There is no good that will come of it. I doubt anyone wants to be reputed as the person who offers their friends, neighbors or relatives children alcohol, the optics and accusations that could arise from doing this could be onerously negative for you.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Dick284

There’s no wins in this scenario.

The law is the law.

But also kids will be kids.

Worse yet when your child is socially accepted and of a gregarious type.

Go forth fully knowledgeable of the pit falls, but also with an open mind.

This is the single most contraversial and well as contradictory issue I’ve had to deal with when my kids were teens.

Yes we allowed our children to drink as teens.

Don’t expect any gory details on the issue, let’s just say we found a set of ground rules that worked, and a way to make it more or less work.

Raising a teen can be one of the more challenging parts of parenting.

At the end of it all, both children stayed out of most of the bigger troubles, graduated high school, and are now contributing to society, both having jobs, and careers. One has a trade ticket(red seal) the other is working towards a trade.

My parents expected me not to drink as a teenager. I expect the same from my children. To this day I have NEVER consumed alcohol. I have a feeling I’ve not missed much. I’m pretty sure the opposite is not true.

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by chuck

My parents expected me not to drink as a teenager. I expect the same from my children. To this day I have NEVER consumed alcohol. I have a feeling I’ve not missed much. I’m pretty sure the opposite is not true.

The thing is, there is often a significant gap between what one expects and what one gets from others. Just talking as a general rule here rather than your kids specifically so take no offense. If one demonstrates the ill effects rather than simply saying "NO!" the lesson will stick better. I'll be bringing my 10 year old for a tour of the local homeless hang-outs to show him the outcome of addiction. When one has had a few, the compulsion that more liquor will make one feel better is very deceiving. One thing about total abstinence is that one won't ever find out if they're prone to addiction but there's no downsides to it save for not knowing a what an occasional good buzz feels like and that's not a must by any means.

I think booze should be treated much like firearms safety and sex education. One has to know about things to be safe with them.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

The thing is, there is often a significant gap between what one expects and what one gets from others. Just talking as a general rule here rather than your kids specifically so take no offense. If one demonstrates the ill effects rather than simply saying "NO!" the lesson will stick better. I'll be bringing my 10 year old for a tour of the local homeless hang-outs to show him the outcome of addiction. When one has had a few, the compulsion that more liquor will make one feel better is very deceiving. One thing about total abstinence is that one won't ever find out if they're prone to addiction but there's no downsides to it save for not knowing a what an occasional good buzz feels like and that's not a must by any means.

I think booze should be treated much like firearms safety and sex education. One has to know about things to be safe with them.

But one does not need to jump off of a bridge to know the outcome is not good.

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by chuck

But one does not need to jump off of a bridge to know the outcome is not good.

I see where you're going but the comparison is not so hot because it infers a 92%+ failure rate with alcohol, which is certainly not the case. I have a few alky's in the family so I know all too well the 'joy' that can bring but I blame the user, not the booze (see the firearms tie-in again?).

On the other hand wouldn't it be grand if those select few never started? So in that regard I do follow you.

[Pathfinder76]

My question is what good comes of it? Would the world be a worse place if no one consumed alcohol?

[hayseed]

Originally Posted by chuck

My question is what good comes of it? Would the world be a worse place if no one consumed alcohol?

Well it would sure take the old option of chewing your arm off in the morning to escape off the table.

[huntinstuff]

Parents who “dictate” how things will be usually lose.

Better to “negotiate “. Having respect for your kid is important too.

I grew up with a dictator. By the time i was 12 id had it. Nothing worse than an adoptive narcissistic sociopath running your life. I was better off alone. Soon I was.

Naturally parents need to set rules, but you also need to be receptive to a bit of change too.

Alcohol is as dangerous as the user makes it. And, there’s usually only one way to find out how much is too much.

But, try to control the variables.

[Immigrant]

I would be concerned when adults offer my underage daughter alcohol. Not because I fear she will drink it, but I will be concerned that she is hanging with people that think it is acceptable to offer other people's kids alcohol.
As a child my parents never offered me alcohol, and I never asked. There was a mutual respect. Even when turning 18 (legal drinking age in the old country) I did not have a drink in front of them. Only after graduating and moving out did I have a beer with the old man. And so did my friends.
But I struggle to get my head around the "grad party" where the objective is to get horribly drunk. Why? Why are parents and cops endorsing this behaviour. And what are the kids celebrating? You haven't achieved anything by finishing grade 12. The real struggles and challenges in life lies ahead. I was too concerned finding a place to live and a job to pay for it when I graduated. Getting drunk was not even on my list

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by hayseed

Well it would sure take the old option of chewing your arm off in the morning to escape off the table.

You mean the old single-coyote versus the double-coyote?

Single coyote: You wake up groggy and she's so awful that you chew off your arm that she's sleeping on in order to make your escape without waking her.

Double coyote: She's so awful that not only do you chew off the one arm to make good your escape, but you chew off the other so that you don't do it again!!

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by Immigrant

But I struggle to get my head around the "grad party" where the objective is to get horribly drunk. Why? Why are parents and cops endorsing this behaviour. And what are the kids celebrating? You haven't achieved anything by finishing grade 12. The real struggles and challenges in life lies ahead. I was too concerned finding a place to live and a job to pay for it when I graduated. Getting drunk was not even on my list

The objective is that the adults have learned from history and that many kids die tragically around grad parties. Its irrelevant whether or not you comprehend why they wish to party, the fact of the matter is that most of them will be doing so anyways. The smart thing to do is to take safety precautions with this fact in mind. The motivation is for them to not get hurt or die, the having fun part they can deal with amongst themselves. Knowing history and the nature of youth to want to whoop it up, instead of issuing demands that will be ignored by most of the kids, how about we all be realistic and more pro-active and take the bull by the horns? Its going to happen anyways so let it happen with sufficient controls and zero chance of any drunk driving. The safe grad I referenced was only accessed by bus and the return trip home was included. Nobody drove there so nobody could drive home either. Then again I just realized that the secret location thing would no longer work, the one I was at was before the prevalence of cell phones (they existed, but they were in their infancy and were the size of bricks).

A buddy of mine noted they had a similar set-up at some farmers place around Vernon, BC in his day. The students gathered there for the whoop up and overnight camp out and not only did the farmer/Dad take everyone's car keys, he also blocked in all the vehicles on the property by parking farm equipment across the driveway. I think overlooking the underage drinking aspect is the lesser of two 'evils' when it comes to ensuring that every parent reunites with the young adults that they love the next day.

[Immigrant]

I apologize to the OP for derailing his thread.
I can see the theory behind the "safe grad party". Everyone gets to go home. I get it. But I have a problem with "it's going to happen anyways". Why must it turn in to a drunk fest? Why do the kids act that way? Why do we need to protect them from themselves for that one night? I don't expect you to answer me. I really think there are no definitive answers as to why this happens. But I can't ignore the fact that I think that because it is endorsed, because there is such a build up and hype around that night that things turn in to what they do.
I really hope that one day my children make the right decisions and life choices. I really hope I set a good example as a parent.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Immigrant

I would be concerned when adults offer my underage daughter alcohol. Not because I fear she will drink it, but I will be concerned that she is hanging with people that think it is acceptable to offer other people's kids alcohol.
As a child my parents never offered me alcohol, and I never asked. There was a mutual respect. Even when turning 18 (legal drinking age in the old country) I did not have a drink in front of them. Only after graduating and moving out did I have a beer with the old man. And so did my friends.
But I struggle to get my head around the "grad party" where the objective is to get horribly drunk. Why? Why are parents and cops endorsing this behaviour. And what are the kids celebrating? You haven't achieved anything by finishing grade 12. The real struggles and challenges in life lies ahead. I was too concerned finding a place to live and a job to pay for it when I graduated. Getting drunk was not even on my list

This is very well said. The problem is some parents are just old teenagers. There comes a time when people need to grow up. Some never do. Do as I say, not as I do, never works. Addicted adults (pick your drug) often perpetuate the problem for generations. "Safe Grad"? What an absolute joke.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

The objective is that the adults have learned from history and that many kids die tragically around grad parties. Its irrelevant whether or not you comprehend why they wish to party, the fact of the matter is that most of them will be doing so anyways. The smart thing to do is to take safety precautions with this fact in mind. The motivation is for them to not get hurt or die, the having fun part they can deal with amongst themselves. Knowing history and the nature of youth to want to whoop it up, instead of issuing demands that will be ignored by most of the kids, how about we all be realistic and more pro-active and take the bull by the horns? Its going to happen anyways so let it happen with sufficient controls and zero chance of any drunk driving. The safe grad I referenced was only accessed by bus and the return trip home was included. Nobody drove there so nobody could drive home either. Then again I just realized that the secret location thing would no longer work, the one I was at was before the prevalence of cell phones (they existed, but they were in their infancy and were the size of bricks).

A buddy of mine noted they had a similar set-up at some farmers place around Vernon, BC in his day. The students gathered there for the whoop up and overnight camp out and not only did the farmer/Dad take everyone's car keys, he also blocked in all the vehicles on the property by parking farm equipment across the driveway. I think overlooking the underage drinking aspect is the lesser of two 'evils' when it comes to ensuring that every parent reunites with the young adults that they love the next day.

We give kids no credit. That is the problem. Our society panders to the lowest common denominator and thinks the rest should play along. No thanks, and myself and my wife are doing all we can to teach our children to be more responsible than many adults they see demonstrate.

[roper1]

Originally Posted by chuck

We give kids no credit. That is the problem. Our society panders to the lowest common denominator and thinks the rest should play along. No thanks, and myself and my wife are doing all we can to teach our children to be more responsible than many adults they see demonstrate.

Pretty extreme view Chuck. The vast majority of "survivors" of safe grads go on to be productive members of society.

I think most grads at these events wouldn't fit the lowest common denominator image.

I hope for you & your kid's sake they don't rebel and give the demon rum a try some night a ways out of town & have to drive themselves home or be driven there by a drunk.

[catnthehat]

No matter how hard parents try, sometimes their kids go sideways on them in life.
Personally seen it where parents try their best to bring kids up a certain way and it goes the exact opposite - both ways too, what some consider good and others consider bad habits.
Cat

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by chuck

We give kids no credit. That is the problem. Our society panders to the lowest common denominator and thinks the rest should play along. No thanks, and myself and my wife are doing all we can to teach our children to be more responsible than many adults they see demonstrate.

There are lots of great kids who are mature beyond their years, and then there are the rest. Sometimes they all end up in the same vehicle and the smart sober kids might not be aware the driver is plastered until its too late. How would they be able to determine the behavioural cues if they've never been in the presence of people consuming alcohol before? Lets face it, aside from the Einstein kids there are going to be a greater number of students destined to be average and others yet destined for mediocrity in each and every graduating class. Its simple averages.

If there weren't a Safe Grad what is to stop the truckload of plastered kids from plowing head-on into the Smart car of other youth who are driving from their shift volunteering at the food bank to head over to the library? Just an example to note these events increase safety for more than just those attending the actual parties, they help out everyone else on the road.

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

There are lots of great kids who are mature beyond their years, and then there are the rest. Sometimes they all end up in the same vehicle and the smart sober kids might not be aware the driver is plastered until its too late. How would they be able to determine the behavioural cues if they've never been in the presence of people consuming alcohol before? Lets face it, aside from the Einstein kids there are going to be a greater number of students destined to be average and others yet destined for mediocrity in each and every graduating class. Its simple averages.

If there weren't a Safe Grad what is to stop the truckload of plastered kids from plowing head-on into the Smart car of other youth who are driving from their shift volunteering at the food bank to head over to the library? Just an example to note these events increase safety for more than just those attending the actual parties, they help out everyone else on the road.

Aren't we the ray of sunshine tonite?

I'll admit, I did alot of drinking in my youth. Mild drugs at times, maybe I wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed but it is what it is... Had alot of fun, and I'd do it all over again. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. Wasn't stupid enough to get behind the wheel and drive.

Kids today, seems like they are being forced to learn the mistakes of the parents. Can't live in fear, and can't live with the worst case scenario all the time.

All parents can really do is educate their kids and hope they make the right choices.

[Runewolf1973]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

Aren't we the ray of sunshine tonite?

I'll admit, I did alot of drinking in my youth. Mild drugs at times, maybe I wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed but it is what it is... Had alot of fun, and I'd do it all over again. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. Wasn't stupid enough to get behind the wheel and drive.

Kids today, seems like they are being forced to learn the mistakes of the parents. Can't live in fear, and can't live with the worst case scenario all the time.

All parents can really do is educate their kids and hope they make the right choices.

Agreed. Good post!

[Badgerbadger]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

You mean the old single-coyote versus the double-coyote?

Single coyote: You wake up groggy and she's so awful that you chew off your arm that she's sleeping on in order to make your escape without waking her.

Double coyote: She's so awful that not only do you chew off the one arm to make good your escape, but you chew off the other so that you don't do it again!!

I hadn't heard of the double coyote. It lays obvious my mistake. I haven't chewed my other arm off yet.

Thanks!

[Freedom55]

I've read that with the proposed legalization of marijuana there will be a $1,000,000.00 fine for providing/selling pot to a juvenile in at least one province. How is giving alcohol to a minor any different?

As discussed in a previous post regarding "alcohol poisoning" booze is responsible for many tragedies and it is the best interest of our children actually achieving adulthood that they avoid such intoxicants during their most fragile years. We should be against someone else's parents deciding what is good for our children and I am happy that the Criminal Code provides stiff penalties to those that do.

Free

[CaberTosser]

I'm not sure where advocating safety for both grads and other motorists is being a downer by referencing the well-documented carnage that is predictable annually so I guess I'll just shrug at that. I simply think it's a positive to advocate for the prevention of said carnage. I have however noticed a greater resistance to drunk driving in today's youth than the youth of my day so that's positive progress. I can't say how much todays's youth are drawn to drinking as my exposure to that specific age group is pretty limited so I'm just going on my own experience and assuming some parallels still exist, it's a fair bet that marijuana has taken some market share from liquor as it seems so common these days what with smelling it in traffic these days and pending legalization. Now that I mention that though, today's youth and adults alike don't seem to give a hoot about driving high, they may not drive drunk but they'll give weed a pass for the same activity and will drive impaired by weed.

[ghostguy6]

As someone who spent the better part of a decade working in bars and nightclubs, I would say it is illegal. While there is an exception by the Alberta liquor/gaming act that allows a parent to "give the liquor to a minor in their residence" it does not say anything about "consumption" so you are entering a legal grey area. The Criminal Code section 245 does state administering a noxious substance is an indictable offense and as such could apply if there was intent to harm the person (which as the parent I certainly hope there is no intent but can happen). There are far too many grey areas to take the risk.
My safe grad was only open to those who were 18 years or older. Plus all the chaperones required Preserve and Protec Training. There was also a rep from the AGLC on site.

Another thing I can say is, 18-20 year olds are the worst to deal with at the bars. Many pound back as many drink as they can as fast as they can because they don't know the consequences. I can not count how many times Ive had to phone parents to come get their kids who passed out or how many ambulances Ive called because of alcohol poisoning. Many of these incidents occur before the patron even enters the bar because they pre-drink in the parking lot and the effects hit them while standing in line. Once this happen, police usually get involved because the bars have to cover their buts. Im sure most of you parents would not enjoy picking up your "little boy or girl" from the drunk tank or worse seeing them in the hospital. Police often get called when these people are turned away at the doors then are seen driving away. These things also happen when a minor drinks, but then social services gets involved and believe me you do not what that to happen.

I really wish you required a training course and license to drink, something with a demerit system that could result in a suspension and mandatory retraining before you could legally obtain alcohol again.
I'm not going to carry on about whether its a good or bad idea to allow your teens to consume alcohol or not but I would highly recommend you at least educate them on the effects of alcohol and alcohol abuse.
PS. I have personally been called to court to testify 6 times because of minors being sexually assaulted while under the influence of drugs or alcohol before they were denied entry into a bar.

[CaberTosser]

I too worked in a nightclub in my early 20's, though I was somewhat naive at the time considering my surroundings. In hindsight I think one event was not a girl being impaired, but that she was likely slipped a 'roofie' or something. I did get her safely away from one lecherous dude who thinking back now most likely had drugged her. The giveaway that made me get her away from him and drive her to her home was that he didn't even know her name. He made a suggestion that I won't repeat here but it made me certain beyond any doubt that the girl was not safe with him.

This is among the reasons why I think a chaperoned party is a good concept. Another thing showed up on my Facebook feed this morning was about one of the wildfires over the weekend suggesting that it was possibly started by a grad party in the bush, a certain high school was named and it appeared that a group of off-road enthusiasts was cleaning up the mess.

[Norwest Alta]

Growing up my dad would buy us beer but it was to be consumed at home. His thoughts were at least he knew where his kids were. Makes sense to me. My buds were allowed to drink as well and their parents were quite happy that all of us would be in the basement playing pool rather then raising hell around the hood.

[Suzukisam]

At the most Minimum they would have to get your permission to do so. If you say No then they would most definitely be in violation of the law