all-around stopping rifle for canoe trip

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

Taking precautions means being able to defend oneself. If they have a PAL, they can do what the hell they want in the woods,with a weapon. Who are you or most anyone else to say they are paranoid? Let me guess,your from central Canada and are starting a new campaign for gun control?

Nait....I think you read my post all wrong my friend. I plan on carrying a rifle (ranch hand) with me while bow hunting moose this year, so I will be on the prepared side of things.

My point is that people should not be paranoid about having a bear encounter but they should be prepared...not sure how you read it in a way that you felt I support more gun control??

LC

[Hunter]

It never ceases to amaze me that the second someone asks a question about bear defense, a pile of people jump on the "I can't believe you're scared of bears" bandwagon.

A healthy educated respect of bears is all that is required, and if that means carrying a firearm, great, that is an individual's choice. No need to assume they are scared and blindly firing shots into the bush.

[silver]

Originally Posted by Hunter

It never ceases to amaze me that the second someone asks a question about bear defense, a pile of people jump on the "I can't believe you're scared of bears" bandwagon.

A healthy educated respect of bears is all that is required, and if that means carrying a firearm, great, that is an individual's choice. No need to assume they are scared and blindly firing shots into the bush.

I agree with you, it would also be nice to see a certain amount of respect for other peoples viewpoint, experience, and things they have learned.

Instead some take the keyboard warrior way and use derision and ridicule and label ideas as nonsense. lol lol

[1899b]

Originally Posted by Hunter

It never ceases to amaze me that the second someone asks a question about bear defense, a pile of people jump on the "I can't believe you're scared of bears" bandwagon.

A healthy educated respect of bears is all that is required, and if that means carrying a firearm, great, that is an individual's choice. No need to assume they are scared and blindly firing shots into the bush.

It never ceases to amaze me the amount of bear defense threads. Just do a friggen search on any hunting, gun or shooting discussion forum from Canada or the US. Why hash the rehashed?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by silver

I agree with you, it would also be nice to see a certain amount of respect for other peoples viewpoint, experience, and things they have learned.

Instead some take the keyboard warrior way and use derision and ridicule and label ideas as nonsense. lol lol

So where exactly did you learn about using knives as bear protection, just out of curiosity. I dont think bringing a gun is nonsense, I dont do it but if others want to then go for it. I think leaving a knife on a sheet of white paper, if infact you are using this as any type of bear deterant, is complete and total nonsense.

I usualy respect others ideas but this is a particularly bad one. It is however somewhat entertaining to watch a guy who talks about using knives and axes on bears with a straight face throw around the term "keyboard warrior". Thanks for that.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by JohninAB

You live in Medicine Hat, your experiences in the wilderness of Alberta is limited I would guess. Some of us have encountered bears and know people who have been killed. .

you would be mighty wrong in that guess. i have hunted, fished, camped, and recreated in every corner of this province as have many others on this forum.

heres a bear hunt from the chinchaga in the northwest



a sheep hunt from the wilmore in the middle of the province on the west side



a remote fishing expedition on the castle in the southwest



a moose hunt from north of ft mcmurray in the northeast



i could show you elk hunts in k country, bears from the cold lake area, and of course whitetails from right smack in the middle of the province. some guys might just go for a drive from home to hunt, but many more travel all over the place.

anyway, the topic was bears. i wonder how many realize that deer attack and kill more people every year than bears do? its a little harder to find as most searches turn up vehicle collision info, but there was a television program that had the hard numbers. heres a little reading on it.

in alaska, bears get a lot of notoriety, but moose are more dangerous....

http://animals.howstuffworks.com/ani...rous-moose.htm

http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/...bucks-turn-bad

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...-attacks_x.htm

http://www.ftthomas.org/Deer.html

how come we never have threads on moose and deer defense? i mean statistically you ARE more likely to be attacked by one of those than a bear.

[silver]

Originally Posted by Cal

So where exactly did you learn about using knives as bear protection, just out of curiosity. I dont think bringing a gun is nonsense, I dont do it but if others want to then go for it. I think leaving a knife on a sheet of white paper, if infact you are using this as any type of bear deterant, is complete and total nonsense.

I usualy respect others ideas but this is a particularly bad one. It is however somewhat entertaining to watch a guy who talks about using knives and axes on bears with a straight face throw around the term "keyboard warrior". Thanks for that.

Well Cal here is how it goes, you mention the Sawn lake area, I have hauled pipe into that area and moved rigs into and out of that area and like you I havent felt the slightest bit of fear about bears. I have moved rigs in the Sierra road north of Fort Nelson,Zamz city area, Chinchaga, Twin Lakes road, Kelly Lakes road, Weyerhauser road, Sheep creek road, Hammerhead road, and all the way down to Rockey Mountain House, and like you I havent been worried about bears.

I have been in remote areas with bear sightings and lots of sign, and yes I have been apprehensive of bear attacks.

I have worked in a lot of remote areas and not worried about bears, there is enough noise, enough people, enough smell, enough disruption that bears arnt a worry.

Where did I learn about leaving a knife on white paper? Try reading Tales Of Alaskas Big Bears by Jim Reardon, try reading Bear attacks by Stephen Herrero.

My original post mentioned a firearm, an axe in a chopping block, and yes, a knife on white paper. If a bear comes into my tent I will use that knife if I have to. If it comes down to it, I will use my teeth and fingernails.

I am willing to read of others adventures and experiences and learn from them, I am willing to learn from my travelling companions and their broader range of experience, I am willing to listen to others and take their words and consider my experience and maybe think of a new process. I do not believe I know everything.

You are easily entertained by others, you must know everything.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

you would be mighty wrong in that guess. i have hunted, fished, camped, and recreated in every corner of this province as have many others on this forum.

heres a bear hunt from the chinchaga in the northwest



a sheep hunt from the wilmore in the middle of the province on the west side



a remote fishing expedition on the castle in the southwest





a moose hunt from north of ft mcmurray in the northeast



i could show you elk hunts in k country, bears from the cold lake area, and of course whitetails from right smack in the middle of the province. some guys might just go for a drive from home to hunt, but many more travel all over the place.

anyway, the topic was bears. i wonder how many realize that deer attack and kill more people every year than bears do? its a little harder to find as most searches turn up vehicle collision info, but there was a television program that had the hard numbers. heres a little reading on it.

in alaska, bears get a lot of notoriety, but moose are more dangerous....

http://animals.howstuffworks.com/ani...rous-moose.htm

http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/...bucks-turn-bad

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...-attacks_x.htm

http://www.ftthomas.org/Deer.html

how come we never have threads on moose and deer defense? i mean statistically you ARE more likely to be attacked by one of those than a bear.

Very good point ishootbambi. Thanks for those links. Bears get all the bad rap!

[honda450]

Never had no problems with bears personally but this one decided to eat my quad one day, and my lunch. He wouldn't leave after many warnings.

Lost a tent last year too that a bear tore to pieces, never did see that one though.

Sometimes I pack, sometimes not. Sometimes bear spray, sometimes not.

Bear bangers I find useless.

Carry what ya need to feel comfortable.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by honda450

Never had no problems with bears personally but this one decided to eat my quad one day, and my lunch. He wouldn't leave after many warnings.

Lost a tent last year too that a bear tore to pieces, never did see that one though.

Sometimes I pack, sometimes not. Sometimes bear spray, sometimes not.

Bear bangers I find useless.

Carry what ya need to feel comfortable.

Good post, but, it sounds to me like that bear was a problem. From the look of that Quad seat, I'd say not a little problem either.

I wonder how many Moose or Deer have destroyed Quad seats and torn open tents. Must be quite a few.

BTW I found the same thing with Bear Bangers. I packed one for a while back when I worked in forestry.

[bcpappy]

Having a gun on trips outdoors also makes your family members back home feel a little more at ease to. I hunt solo alot, my wife and dad feel better that I started using a 338 win mag. I used to use a 7 rem mag. The 7 mag was more than enough to stop the one bear that wouldn't leave me alone. I used over 3/4 of my bear spray on it and then finally had to shoot it at about 15 feet away. In almost twenty years of hunting I only once had to shoot a bear in self defense. Sometimes its piece of mind for those that care about you, I always carry a gun when I go outside of town. I would buy the stainless gun for a canoe trip.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

guess wrong. unless you have experienced a predatory attack by a bear, saying someone's fear of bears is irrational is quite irrational.

I think you got that backwards.

So much for your rational argument.

[Speckle55]

I live in Bear country and having a gun is personal choice ,,,while i do not carry all the time i do most time in certain area,s and depending on what i am doing..

i carry a 30-30 model 94 with 180 gr because its short and is not in way when carrying,, berry picking or fishing... also its loaded on my back just need to cock trigger ..

while i never have had a problem(knock on wood) i have been very close and have felt threatened ..

out here in Hinton this year a Black bear was Aggressive near Brule and may have took a swing at a young lady but she tripped and fell then her dog intreceded and bear chased it while she got through fence , next incounter was a young man with his very young daughter strapped to his chest in holder when he incountered the same bear it was close and kept coming when he yell at it .. it finally retreated .. Fish and Wildlife reponded and the bear was agressive toward them .. they dispatched the bear .. also had the same on a Cougar on golf course.. also on any other animals that may get aggressive on you .. you do have the right to defend yourself and party and i would not hesitate if i had too..

also a Grizz sow mauled a hunter and his partners saved him and then a CO officer and RCMP went out to dispach the wounded bear and the CO wasn't ready and he got mauled and the RCMP dispatched the bear with his pistol at Peppers lake area here in the 1960's

One of my best friend's has the scars from a Cougar attack on his body/face and was save by a women with a broom and then a neighbor with a rifle
http://users.frii.com/mytymyk/lions/beiercol.htm#Hinton
we had 5 Cougars killed last hunting season in incounters here

all i say is for this post use what you are comfortable with and have it in your mind that if you have too ,,you will use leathal force .. those marine guns sound nice imo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._North_America
Food for Thought
David

[Cal]

Originally Posted by silver

Well Cal here is how it goes, you mention the Sawn lake area, I have hauled pipe into that area and moved rigs into and out of that area and like you I havent felt the slightest bit of fear about bears. I have moved rigs in the Sierra road north of Fort Nelson,Zamz city area, Chinchaga, Twin Lakes road, Kelly Lakes road, Weyerhauser road, Sheep creek road, Hammerhead road, and all the way down to Rockey Mountain House, and like you I havent been worried about bears.

I have been in remote areas with bear sightings and lots of sign, and yes I have been apprehensive of bear attacks.

I have worked in a lot of remote areas and not worried about bears, there is enough noise, enough people, enough smell, enough disruption that bears arnt a worry.

Where did I learn about leaving a knife on white paper? Try reading Tales Of Alaskas Big Bears by Jim Reardon, try reading Bear attacks by Stephen Herrero.

My original post mentioned a firearm, an axe in a chopping block, and yes, a knife on white paper. If a bear comes into my tent I will use that knife if I have to. If it comes down to it, I will use my teeth and fingernails.

I am willing to read of others adventures and experiences and learn from them, I am willing to learn from my travelling companions and their broader range of experience, I am willing to listen to others and take their words and consider my experience and maybe think of a new process. I do not believe I know everything.

You are easily entertained by others, you must know everything.

I agree that alot of oilfield work is as you say, with little risk of bear encounters. Especily when you have lots of guys and and equipment in a concentrated area. That is usualy not the case with my line of work however. Sawn Lake can be a different story when your heading out with a quad to change a clutch on a remote well by yourself. Had one watch me winch myself out of a hole just a couple weeks ago. I spent almost a month welding up rig mats alone in a gravel pit north of Swan Hills a few years back, almost every morning there was fresh bear sign. Never did see them while I was working, guess the welder made enough noise to keep the away. Another time I was organizing stock in the Nipisi warehouse when I ran the forklift out of propane, the bay door was open and a bear had entered, because he was behind the forklift we didnt notice eachother untill I'd gotten dangerously close. Sure I've had a few times where I got pretty nervous over the years but the outcome is always the same, one of us buggers off and nobody gets hurt, can see why somepeople pack a gun though. Generaly when I've seen a bear get shot its because work needs to get done and a bear doesnt want to leave. About the wildest thing I've seen was when a small black bear got itself trapped in a dumpster in a boneyard by Horsetail, a crazy frenchman who ran the co-rod truck decided to open the dumpster with his knuckle picker. I'll admit I watched that opperation from a very safe distance!

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by honda450

Never had no problems with bears personally but this one decided to eat my quad one day, and my lunch.





Carry what ya need to feel comfortable.

i doubt that killing him was neccessary. i dont care why you killed it. strapping him on makes me think you were hunting and had a tag. maybe you just wanted to. thats ok too. maybe you were mad that you needed a new seat. whichever. i dont care that you killed it, i just have my doubts it was neccessary.

i do agree that if it makes someone feel better about the world, then carry whatever you like. i still dont get the fear though.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Good post, but, it sounds to me like that bear was a problem. From the look of that Quad seat, I'd say not a little problem either.

I wonder how many Moose or Deer have destroyed Quad seats and torn open tents. Must be quite a few.

BTW I found the same thing with Bear Bangers. I packed one for a while back when I worked in forestry.

nice try at deflecting the point. shredding a quad seat is not a death sentence for me. that isnt even close to my definition of bear defence and has nothign to do with deer and moose.

that quad seat could have been tied out of reach with some rope in a matter of minutes. what i see is soemone not taking the precaution of avoiding a problem in bear country. ive never had a seat eaten, but then i tie mine up. there are members of this site who have found my quad stashed when i went for a walk in a remote area. i was thinking about doing them a favor and tying theirs up too, but i dont like to mess with other guys stuff. i actually met up with those two guys 13 km from the quads and talked about it.......and found out that one of them had his seat eaten at that very spot the previous year. it isnt a secret that bears like ass-sweat, and people who live in the country also know that foxes are likely to swipe your shoes to lick foot sweat too. its what critters do. a little bear awareness solves most problems before they ever happen.


dont bother with more examples....i know there are times when poop happens and sometimes bears get killed for real reasons. now lets get to a deer defence thread.

[rugatika]

Just for interests sake I thought I'd post this.

http://neveryetmelted.com/2006/07/23...ar-with-knife/

[JohninAB]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

you would be mighty wrong in that guess. i have hunted, fished, camped, and recreated in every corner of this province as have many others on this forum.

heres a bear hunt from the chinchaga in the northwest



a sheep hunt from the wilmore in the middle of the province on the west side



a remote fishing expedition on the castle in the southwest



a moose hunt from north of ft mcmurray in the northeast



i could show you elk hunts in k country, bears from the cold lake area, and of course whitetails from right smack in the middle of the province. some guys might just go for a drive from home to hunt, but many more travel all over the place.

anyway, the topic was bears. i wonder how many realize that deer attack and kill more people every year than bears do? its a little harder to find as most searches turn up vehicle collision info, but there was a television program that had the hard numbers. heres a little reading on it.

in alaska, bears get a lot of notoriety, but moose are more dangerous....

http://animals.howstuffworks.com/ani...rous-moose.htm

http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/...bucks-turn-bad

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...-attacks_x.htm

http://www.ftthomas.org/Deer.html

how come we never have threads on moose and deer defense? i mean statistically you ARE more likely to be attacked by one of those than a bear.

Statistics can be configured to prove most anything if ya want. Sheer numbers of deer and moose versus bears obviously would mean that encountering one of those critters is proportionately higher than bears. I know of a few of our guys/gals who have spent time in a tree or behind one hiding from an irate moose but know of no one killed by moose other than by vehicle accidents. Know of many of our guys/gals who have encountered bears as well. Most were non confrontational, but two fellow coworkers have been killed, bears shot in tower cabins after breaking the door down, shot 2 feet outside my tent door at 3 in the morning by the camp cook, god bless her soul. But these things happen when you spend 150 plus days a year in remote areas mostly accessed by helicopter. So your two or three weeks hunting/fishing and odd weekend trip is limited in my books. Plus in most of your examples your are packing a weapon of some sort. Thru all of this I would never forget my first aid kit, have never needed it in 25 years of working in the bush, but it is the prudent thing to do. If I go into areas where I feel the need for more bear protection than pepper spray, I will pack a gun as it is also the prudent thing to do. Not scared of bears, just rather be safe than sorry. Sort of like not fishing of golfing during an electrical storm as it is the smart thing to do, although statistically, I have a greater chance of encountering a deer or moose attack.

On a side note. The use of bear bangers is illegal in the forest protection area of Alberta. Fire hazard.

[honda450]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

i doubt that killing him was neccessary. i dont care why you killed it. strapping him on makes me think you were hunting and had a tag. maybe you just wanted to. thats ok too. maybe you were mad that you needed a new seat. whichever. i dont care that you killed it, i just have my doubts it was neccessary.

i do agree that if it makes someone feel better about the world, then carry whatever you like. i still dont get the fear though.

Ya sure assume allot barbie.

[albertacowboy]

I'm almost sorry I started this thread, given all the unfriendly controversy it has raised.

I am not too experienced in the bush, but I am not planning on shooting at every noise or quivering leaf either. My fervent hope is to never have to shoot a bear or other predator, as I am most interested in seeing their populations thrive. I especially want to see the survival and resurgence of the grizzly in Alberta, whatever their actual numbers really are.

We carry pepper spray and would use that as a first line of defence. I know that the risk of a bear attack is very low, especially if you keep a clean camp, are careful of food smells, and so on. On the other hand, I believe that there is a risk, however small it might be. The question a wilderness traveler has to ask himself is whether he is willing to take that risk.

I am willing to take that risk, but I believe in protecting myself and my family. Carrying a suitable firearm seems to me to be only reasonable and prudent, when allowed, if there is a risk of dangerous predators. My wonderful Alberta redneck father taught me to handle firearms properly and safely, and to use reasonable care in all things.

Thanks for all contributions.

[pickrel pat]

Originally Posted by albertacowboy

I'm almost sorry I started this thread, given all the unfriendly controversy it has raised.

I am not too experienced in the bush, but I am not planning on shooting at every noise or quivering leaf either. My fervent hope is to never have to shoot a bear or other predator, as I am most interested in seeing their populations thrive. I especially want to see the survival and resurgence of the grizzly in Alberta, whatever their actual numbers really are.

We carry pepper spray and would use that as a first line of defence. I know that the risk of a bear attack is very low, especially if you keep a clean camp, are careful of food smells, and so on. On the other hand, I believe that there is a risk, however small it might be. The question a wilderness traveler has to ask himself is whether he is willing to take that risk.

I am willing to take that risk, but I believe in protecting myself and my family. Carrying a suitable firearm seems to me to be only reasonable and prudent, when allowed, if there is a risk of dangerous predators. My wonderful Alberta redneck father taught me to handle firearms properly and safely, and to use reasonable care in all things.

Thanks for all contributions.

just do what you want..... if a bear gun makes you feel comfortable, pack one! wouldnt be a good trip if you were not comfortable....... your out there to relax and be at one with nature...... kinda hard to do if your not comfortable with the situation at hand.... take a good short barrelled rifle imo.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by honda450

Ya sure assume allot barbie.

typical honda response.....nothing intelligent to say , so straight to hurling insults. i think i may have a heart attack and die from the surprise.

hehe

hehehe

hehehehehehehe

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by JohninAB

Statistics can be configured to prove most anything if ya want. Sheer numbers of deer and moose versus bears obviously would mean that encountering one of those critters is proportionately higher than bears..

thats a great point. there are many more deer and moose, therefore you are more likely to be attacked by one of them than a bear. seems like we agree.

like i said, carry whatever ya need to make you feel better about the world. myself, i will never understand the fear. oh, and three weeks a year is a touch low.

to be clear....i respect bears....and every other creature in the forest. most of them could hurt me if they choose to, but few ever would unless i gave them a reason to. i will always maintian that the best defense against animal trouble is common sense and knowledge of animal habits. the exception is animals in provincial and national parks that view people as a source of food rather than something to avoid.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

i will always maintian that the best defense against animal trouble is common sense and knowledge of animal habits.

For most people, most of the time, that would be sufficient.

But the problem with Bears is that they each have very different personalities.
Very much like people, but without the societal constraints.
No other wild animal I know shows as much variation in personality.

This makes Bears especially unpredictable and much more dangerous then other wild animals.

No doubt dangerous encounters with other species do occur. But is it because other species are as dangerous, or is it because more people take other species for granted and do stupid things?
Or is it because other species mentioned are encountered much more often?

I think it is a combination of these two and does not accurately reflect the danger such species represent in relation to the danger bears pose.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

No doubt dangerous encounters with other species do occur. But is it because other species are as dangerous, or is it because more people take other species for granted and do stupid things?
Or is it because other species mentioned are encountered much more often?

I think it is a combination of these two and does not accurately reflect the danger such species represent in relation to the danger bears pose.

its absolutely both. i would guess more than 95% of negative animal encounters can be directly blamed on people doing things they shouldnt do, or failing to take the proper steps for prevention. of course human nature being what it is, people think they are the most important thing and blame someone or something else for everything bad that ever happens.

my point is simply that most of the threads here on bear defense are by people that have little to no experience in the outdoors and are unneccessarily afraid because of the hype.

[TehZow]

As an aside, one of my friends is an outfitter in northern Saskatchewan and he had an interesting close encounter with a bear this year.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VQSZ...e_gdata_player

[savage shooter]

Friend,

I know Marlin has been producing some pretty poor quality lever guns since their move into a Remington plant.

They had stopped production for a while to fix the issues and they do seem to be fixed.

I have a new production Marlin 336 and it is wonderful.

Although the 45-70 Gov`t might be shooting a 405 grain bullet, it`s much more of a push than a hard slap like, say, a 338 Winmag.

It`s rainbow trajectory doesn`t matter at all if you`re using it for up close and personal defense. It will leave a very large hole in whatever you point it at. Despite what the velocity numbers lead on, that bullet won`t stop for nobody. I`ve seen them fired through one eight inch steel plate with no problem and they penetrate further in 20 water jugs lined up than the 300 winmag does even with monolythic bullets. Ask me how I know

A nice quick handling marlin lever in 45-70 Govt is a bear stopper. being able to not cock the hammer until needed is a great safety feature and they`re a dream for sliding in and out of a scabbard.

I guess that`s why they call it a `Guide gun`.

[vcmm]

Originally Posted by savage shooter

Friend,

I know Marlin has been producing some pretty poor quality lever guns since their move into a Remington plant.

They had stopped production for a while to fix the issues and they do seem to be fixed.

I have a new production Marlin 336 and it is wonderful.

Although the 45-70 Gov`t might be shooting a 405 grain bullet, it`s much more of a push than a hard slap like, say, a 338 Winmag.

It`s rainbow trajectory doesn`t matter at all if you`re using it for up close and personal defense. It will leave a very large hole in whatever you point it at. Despite what the velocity numbers lead on, that bullet won`t stop for nobody. I`ve seen them fired through one eight inch steel plate with no problem and they penetrate further in 20 water jugs lined up than the 300 winmag does even with monolythic bullets. Ask me how I know

A nice quick handling marlin lever in 45-70 Govt is a bear stopper. being able to not cock the hammer until needed is a great safety feature and they`re a dream for sliding in and out of a scabbard.

I guess that`s why they call it a `Guide gun`.

With the right bullet/load a 45/70 will kill anything that walks.

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by TehZow

As an aside, one of my friends is an outfitter in northern Saskatchewan and he had an interesting close encounter with a bear this year.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VQSZ...e_gdata_player

Very cool vid TehZow!!!!

Thank you for putting it up

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

my point is simply that most of the threads here on bear defense are by people that have little to no experience in the outdoors and are unneccessarily afraid because of the hype.

I have no doubt you are right about that.

But I figure that's better then the inexperienced thinking like Timothy Treadwell or his kind.